Proudly harboring the undocumented

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes, I'm a man.

Why all the vitriol? Let's rewind and see how we got here.

I came from nothing and made good money. I bought a second home with some land in a deeply red state. I hired a lot of local "American" folks to do a lot of things on it, including yard work, with mixed results.

Sometime down the road I complimented a nice neighbor lady on her lawn. She said she had help and would have the guy reach out if he wanted to and I was interested. I said sure. She then said she paid him in cash because he's undocumented. I said ok to that as well.

He reached out and I tried him out. He did an outstanding job. It was clear he knew what he was doing -- and that I didn't. I told him to come back anytime he wanted and to do whatever he wanted. He's been doing that ever since. He's not here every week or even every month. He comes and goes when he wants. And I pay him $36 an hour.

I haven't stopped hiring "American" workers because of him. "American" workers are shuffling in and out of this place constantly, it seems. My regular lawn service is "American" and they're here every week. And you know what? They come even when it's painfully obviously to both them and me that the lawn doesn't need mowing and mow it and charge me anyway. And there are plenty of times when it annoys me and I think I should just buy a ride mower and do it myself. But I keep them on because I know they need the work. The undocumented guy never does work that isn't needed . . .

So, yeah, among the many workers I have had here is an undocumented one. That doesn't make me the devil. It just makes me a fair, equal opportunity human being. It's not his fault he wasn't born here and I certainly don't consider him a charity case. He works hard and deserves my money.

Now you’re backpedaling. You came here to troll MAGA and seek head pats for breaking the law.

Except instead of praising you, this thread sees through your self-serving hypocrisy and you got owned. Better luck next time.

Not backpedaling at all. To the contrary. Show me one post of mine that’s inconsistent with any other.

And to the extent that I’m here to “troll MAGA,” that seems to be working too.

You’ve been exposed and no one is on your side here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes, I'm a man.

Why all the vitriol? Let's rewind and see how we got here.

I came from nothing and made good money. I bought a second home with some land in a deeply red state. I hired a lot of local "American" folks to do a lot of things on it, including yard work, with mixed results.

Sometime down the road I complimented a nice neighbor lady on her lawn. She said she had help and would have the guy reach out if he wanted to and I was interested. I said sure. She then said she paid him in cash because he's undocumented. I said ok to that as well.

He reached out and I tried him out. He did an outstanding job. It was clear he knew what he was doing -- and that I didn't. I told him to come back anytime he wanted and to do whatever he wanted. He's been doing that ever since. He's not here every week or even every month. He comes and goes when he wants. And I pay him $36 an hour.

I haven't stopped hiring "American" workers because of him. "American" workers are shuffling in and out of this place constantly, it seems. My regular lawn service is "American" and they're here every week. And you know what? They come even when it's painfully obviously to both them and me that the lawn doesn't need mowing and mow it and charge me anyway. And there are plenty of times when it annoys me and I think I should just buy a ride mower and do it myself. But I keep them on because I know they need the work. The undocumented guy never does work that isn't needed . . .

So, yeah, among the many workers I have had here is an undocumented one. That doesn't make me the devil. It just makes me a fair, equal opportunity human being. It's not his fault he wasn't born here and I certainly don't consider him a charity case. He works hard and deserves my money.

Now you’re backpedaling. You came here to troll MAGA and seek head pats for breaking the law.

Except instead of praising you, this thread sees through your self-serving hypocrisy and you got owned. Better luck next time.

Not backpedaling at all. To the contrary. Show me one post of mine that’s inconsistent with any other.

And to the extent that I’m here to “troll MAGA,” that seems to be working too.

You’ve been exposed and no one is on your side here.

Wrong. We are so tired of your side. Why don't you go sign up and get your ice bonus and your mask and get out there and do your thing, hot shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes, I'm a man.

Why all the vitriol? Let's rewind and see how we got here.

I came from nothing and made good money. I bought a second home with some land in a deeply red state. I hired a lot of local "American" folks to do a lot of things on it, including yard work, with mixed results.

Sometime down the road I complimented a nice neighbor lady on her lawn. She said she had help and would have the guy reach out if he wanted to and I was interested. I said sure. She then said she paid him in cash because he's undocumented. I said ok to that as well.

He reached out and I tried him out. He did an outstanding job. It was clear he knew what he was doing -- and that I didn't. I told him to come back anytime he wanted and to do whatever he wanted. He's been doing that ever since. He's not here every week or even every month. He comes and goes when he wants. And I pay him $36 an hour.

I haven't stopped hiring "American" workers because of him. "American" workers are shuffling in and out of this place constantly, it seems. My regular lawn service is "American" and they're here every week. And you know what? They come even when it's painfully obviously to both them and me that the lawn doesn't need mowing and mow it and charge me anyway. And there are plenty of times when it annoys me and I think I should just buy a ride mower and do it myself. But I keep them on because I know they need the work. The undocumented guy never does work that isn't needed . . .

So, yeah, among the many workers I have had here is an undocumented one. That doesn't make me the devil. It just makes me a fair, equal opportunity human being. It's not his fault he wasn't born here and I certainly don't consider him a charity case. He works hard and deserves my money.

Now you’re backpedaling. You came here to troll MAGA and seek head pats for breaking the law.

Except instead of praising you, this thread sees through your self-serving hypocrisy and you got owned. Better luck next time.

Not backpedaling at all. To the contrary. Show me one post of mine that’s inconsistent with any other.

And to the extent that I’m here to “troll MAGA,” that seems to be working too.

You’ve been exposed and no one is on your side here.

Wrong. We are so tired of your side. Why don't you go sign up and get your ice bonus and your mask and get out there and do your thing, hot shot.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

Let's unpack it. I think there are really two issues conflated. A) Doing business with a foreign national. B) Immigration.

He is not an immigrant. He is the citizen of another country subject to the laws thereof and import laws here. For all we know he is breaking the law of his home country by not reporting income.

People really need to understand "foreign national". He isn't your serf. We actually have limited jurisdiction over them. Why don't they prosecute them when they are criminals, like US criminals?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

Let's unpack it. I think there are really two issues conflated. A) Doing business with a foreign national. B) Immigration.

He is not an immigrant. He is the citizen of another country subject to the laws thereof and import laws here. For all we know he is breaking the law of his home country by not reporting income.

People really need to understand "foreign national". He isn't your serf. We actually have limited jurisdiction over them. Why don't they prosecute them when they are criminals, like US criminals?

Here's the thing about you that I find most amusing: you think you're smart and you know a lot, and you just don't.

First, the USA is one of the very few countries in the world that taxes its citizens on income earned world-wide. Latin American countries don't do that. My guy hasn't lived in his country of origin for two decades. He couldn't go back if he wanted to at this point because he'd never be able to get back into this country, which is now his home and where he wants to be. He doesn't owe any taxes in his country of origin on the money he is earning here.

Second, we absolutely do have full "jurisdiction" over him. If he were to commit a crime here, he'd be subject to our criminal law -- not the law of his country of origin. He's also subject to our immigration law, not the law of his country of origin, which is why he is lying low.

So, no, I'm not "conflating" anything. I'm paying someone in cash for yard work. That's all I'm doing. And I'm doing it happily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

Let's unpack it. I think there are really two issues conflated. A) Doing business with a foreign national. B) Immigration.

He is not an immigrant. He is the citizen of another country subject to the laws thereof and import laws here. For all we know he is breaking the law of his home country by not reporting income.

People really need to understand "foreign national". He isn't your serf. We actually have limited jurisdiction over them. Why don't they prosecute them when they are criminals, like US criminals?

Here's the thing about you that I find most amusing: you think you're smart and you know a lot, and you just don't.

First, the USA is one of the very few countries in the world that taxes its citizens on income earned world-wide. Latin American countries don't do that. My guy hasn't lived in his country of origin for two decades. He couldn't go back if he wanted to at this point because he'd never be able to get back into this country, which is now his home and where he wants to be. He doesn't owe any taxes in his country of origin on the money he is earning here.

Second, we absolutely do have full "jurisdiction" over him. If he were to commit a crime here, he'd be subject to our criminal law -- not the law of his country of origin. He's also subject to our immigration law, not the law of his country of origin, which is why he is lying low.

So, no, I'm not "conflating" anything. I'm paying someone in cash for yard work. That's all I'm doing. And I'm doing it happily.

You sound awfully defensive for being so happy about it. They could prosecute but normally they don't. It's different rules for different folks.

You Democrats like to pretend that you rule the world, but you really don't have any jurisdiction here. It's a sovereign nation. He has to follow their rules not yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

Let's unpack it. I think there are really two issues conflated. A) Doing business with a foreign national. B) Immigration.

He is not an immigrant. He is the citizen of another country subject to the laws thereof and import laws here. For all we know he is breaking the law of his home country by not reporting income.

People really need to understand "foreign national". He isn't your serf. We actually have limited jurisdiction over them. Why don't they prosecute them when they are criminals, like US criminals?

Here's the thing about you that I find most amusing: you think you're smart and you know a lot, and you just don't.

First, the USA is one of the very few countries in the world that taxes its citizens on income earned world-wide. Latin American countries don't do that. My guy hasn't lived in his country of origin for two decades. He couldn't go back if he wanted to at this point because he'd never be able to get back into this country, which is now his home and where he wants to be. He doesn't owe any taxes in his country of origin on the money he is earning here.

Second, we absolutely do have full "jurisdiction" over him. If he were to commit a crime here, he'd be subject to our criminal law -- not the law of his country of origin. He's also subject to our immigration law, not the law of his country of origin, which is why he is lying low.

So, no, I'm not "conflating" anything. I'm paying someone in cash for yard work. That's all I'm doing. And I'm doing it happily.

You sound awfully defensive for being so happy about it. They could prosecute but normally they don't. It's different rules for different folks.

You Democrats like to pretend that you rule the world, but you really don't have any jurisdiction here. It's a sovereign nation. He has to follow their rules not yours.

Huh? What you are saying makes no sense. None. Clearly you have no legal training or understanding whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

Let's unpack it. I think there are really two issues conflated. A) Doing business with a foreign national. B) Immigration.

He is not an immigrant. He is the citizen of another country subject to the laws thereof and import laws here. For all we know he is breaking the law of his home country by not reporting income.

People really need to understand "foreign national". He isn't your serf. We actually have limited jurisdiction over them. Why don't they prosecute them when they are criminals, like US criminals?

Here's the thing about you that I find most amusing: you think you're smart and you know a lot, and you just don't.

First, the USA is one of the very few countries in the world that taxes its citizens on income earned world-wide. Latin American countries don't do that. My guy hasn't lived in his country of origin for two decades. He couldn't go back if he wanted to at this point because he'd never be able to get back into this country, which is now his home and where he wants to be. He doesn't owe any taxes in his country of origin on the money he is earning here.

Second, we absolutely do have full "jurisdiction" over him. If he were to commit a crime here, he'd be subject to our criminal law -- not the law of his country of origin. He's also subject to our immigration law, not the law of his country of origin, which is why he is lying low.

So, no, I'm not "conflating" anything. I'm paying someone in cash for yard work. That's all I'm doing. And I'm doing it happily.

You sound awfully defensive for being so happy about it. They could prosecute but normally they don't. It's different rules for different folks.

You Democrats like to pretend that you rule the world, but you really don't have any jurisdiction here. It's a sovereign nation. He has to follow their rules not yours.

Huh? What you are saying makes no sense. None. Clearly you have no legal training or understanding whatsoever.

Who needs to understand the laws when we have lawyers like the likes of the OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes, I'm a man.

Why all the vitriol? Let's rewind and see how we got here.

I came from nothing and made good money. I bought a second home with some land in a deeply red state. I hired a lot of local "American" folks to do a lot of things on it, including yard work, with mixed results.

Sometime down the road I complimented a nice neighbor lady on her lawn. She said she had help and would have the guy reach out if he wanted to and I was interested. I said sure. She then said she paid him in cash because he's undocumented. I said ok to that as well.

He reached out and I tried him out. He did an outstanding job. It was clear he knew what he was doing -- and that I didn't. I told him to come back anytime he wanted and to do whatever he wanted. He's been doing that ever since. He's not here every week or even every month. He comes and goes when he wants. And I pay him $36 an hour.

I haven't stopped hiring "American" workers because of him. "American" workers are shuffling in and out of this place constantly, it seems. My regular lawn service is "American" and they're here every week. And you know what? They come even when it's painfully obviously to both them and me that the lawn doesn't need mowing and mow it and charge me anyway. And there are plenty of times when it annoys me and I think I should just buy a ride mower and do it myself. But I keep them on because I know they need the work. The undocumented guy never does work that isn't needed . . .

So, yeah, among the many workers I have had here is an undocumented one. That doesn't make me the devil. It just makes me a fair, equal opportunity human being. It's not his fault he wasn't born here and I certainly don't consider him a charity case. He works hard and deserves my money.

Now you’re backpedaling. You came here to troll MAGA and seek head pats for breaking the law.

Except instead of praising you, this thread sees through your self-serving hypocrisy and you got owned. Better luck next time.

Not backpedaling at all. To the contrary. Show me one post of mine that’s inconsistent with any other.

And to the extent that I’m here to “troll MAGA,” that seems to be working too.

You’ve been exposed and no one is on your side here.

Wrong. We are so tired of your side. Why don't you go sign up and get your ice bonus and your mask and get out there and do your thing, hot shot.

+1

+2 + National Guardsman are picking up trash in DC (literally). Is that part of the thing? Man, it’s fking weird out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes, I'm a man.

Why all the vitriol? Let's rewind and see how we got here.

I came from nothing and made good money. I bought a second home with some land in a deeply red state. I hired a lot of local "American" folks to do a lot of things on it, including yard work, with mixed results.

Sometime down the road I complimented a nice neighbor lady on her lawn. She said she had help and would have the guy reach out if he wanted to and I was interested. I said sure. She then said she paid him in cash because he's undocumented. I said ok to that as well.

He reached out and I tried him out. He did an outstanding job. It was clear he knew what he was doing -- and that I didn't. I told him to come back anytime he wanted and to do whatever he wanted. He's been doing that ever since. He's not here every week or even every month. He comes and goes when he wants. And I pay him $36 an hour.

I haven't stopped hiring "American" workers because of him. "American" workers are shuffling in and out of this place constantly, it seems. My regular lawn service is "American" and they're here every week. And you know what? They come even when it's painfully obviously to both them and me that the lawn doesn't need mowing and mow it and charge me anyway. And there are plenty of times when it annoys me and I think I should just buy a ride mower and do it myself. But I keep them on because I know they need the work. The undocumented guy never does work that isn't needed . . .

So, yeah, among the many workers I have had here is an undocumented one. That doesn't make me the devil. It just makes me a fair, equal opportunity human being. It's not his fault he wasn't born here and I certainly don't consider him a charity case. He works hard and deserves my money.

The vitriol is no worse than what you have dished out in this thread. Nonetheless, 99% of us concede that you have a heart-warming rags-to-riches story and your laborer is a perfectly fine and decent human being that delivers a work product you are happy with at a price point you are happy with. Can you try to actually address the real issues that I and many others have raised? We are asking you to engage in the actual exchange of ideas?

1. Assume your laborer is completing 2000 hours worth of work per year. At $36/hour he's grossing $72,000 per year. What salary would an American or properly documented immigrant in a job role that complies with all applicable laws need to earn pre-tax to get to the same purchasing power enjoyed by your laborer?

2. Immigration is always and everywhere an issue of scale. If your laborer were the only undocumented worker in the county, barely anybody would care and it would be a non-issue. It is 2000 labor hours in a country as big as the United States. No big deal. Best estimates suggest there are somewhere between 8 and 12 million undocumented laborers in the USA. Now we are talking about a massive 24 billion+ labor hours. Assume an average wage of $25/hour. That is $600 billion in wages. At a time when the working class is constantly getting squeezed from all angles, do you really not see why the scale of this is an issue?

3. Do you agree or disagree that increasing the supply of labor, especially by using black and gray market labor, reduces the market clearing price of labor? Do you really think it is unreasonable for legal labor to have a problem with this? If so, are you also against labor unions and their tactics for creating scarcity of labor and increasing the value of labor? What do you think would happen to the cost of labor in this country if the supply of labor was reduced by removing/preventing unauthorized workers? What do you think would happen to the cost of housing if the 12 to 20 million unauthorized migrants were no longer in the country (hint: demand goes down while supply remains stable)?

4. In my jurisdiction, the unauthorized practice of law is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Can you please reconcile the fact that your livelihood and fortune were made off of a special government license that was required to legally engage in your chosen craft yet you simultaneously seem to have nothing but contempt for people that want their livelihoods protected by limiting the labor pool to properly authorized workers?

Again, I and many others in this thread concede your wonderful story of seemingly overcoming really bad odds and also concede that your undocumented laborer is a fine, hardworking person and that you are highly satisfied with his work product. Can you try to actually address the issues listed above?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

There aren't exit controls if you self deport, then couldn't this person wait X number of years to legally come in?

Seems like there is a solution, though it is a inconvinent one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

Let's unpack it. I think there are really two issues conflated. A) Doing business with a foreign national. B) Immigration.

He is not an immigrant. He is the citizen of another country subject to the laws thereof and import laws here. For all we know he is breaking the law of his home country by not reporting income.

People really need to understand "foreign national". He isn't your serf. We actually have limited jurisdiction over them. Why don't they prosecute them when they are criminals, like US criminals?

Here's the thing about you that I find most amusing: you think you're smart and you know a lot, and you just don't.

First, the USA is one of the very few countries in the world that taxes its citizens on income earned world-wide. Latin American countries don't do that. My guy hasn't lived in his country of origin for two decades. He couldn't go back if he wanted to at this point because he'd never be able to get back into this country, which is now his home and where he wants to be. He doesn't owe any taxes in his country of origin on the money he is earning here.

Second, we absolutely do have full "jurisdiction" over him. If he were to commit a crime here, he'd be subject to our criminal law -- not the law of his country of origin. He's also subject to our immigration law, not the law of his country of origin, which is why he is lying low.

So, no, I'm not "conflating" anything. I'm paying someone in cash for yard work. That's all I'm doing. And I'm doing it happily.

Can he be called to jury duty? No, he cannot and thus there is not full jurisdiction.

Legal aliens can't either, arguably they aren't subject to full jurisdiction either. Only US citizens can serve on jurys.

Nations aren't economic zones with interchangable populations. Thats kind of a diversity 101 fundamental and why the tapestry of different peoples are awesome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes, I'm a man.

Why all the vitriol? Let's rewind and see how we got here.

I came from nothing and made good money. I bought a second home with some land in a deeply red state. I hired a lot of local "American" folks to do a lot of things on it, including yard work, with mixed results.

Sometime down the road I complimented a nice neighbor lady on her lawn. She said she had help and would have the guy reach out if he wanted to and I was interested. I said sure. She then said she paid him in cash because he's undocumented. I said ok to that as well.

He reached out and I tried him out. He did an outstanding job. It was clear he knew what he was doing -- and that I didn't. I told him to come back anytime he wanted and to do whatever he wanted. He's been doing that ever since. He's not here every week or even every month. He comes and goes when he wants. And I pay him $36 an hour.

I haven't stopped hiring "American" workers because of him. "American" workers are shuffling in and out of this place constantly, it seems. My regular lawn service is "American" and they're here every week. And you know what? They come even when it's painfully obviously to both them and me that the lawn doesn't need mowing and mow it and charge me anyway. And there are plenty of times when it annoys me and I think I should just buy a ride mower and do it myself. But I keep them on because I know they need the work. The undocumented guy never does work that isn't needed . . .

So, yeah, among the many workers I have had here is an undocumented one. That doesn't make me the devil. It just makes me a fair, equal opportunity human being. It's not his fault he wasn't born here and I certainly don't consider him a charity case. He works hard and deserves my money.

The vitriol is no worse than what you have dished out in this thread. Nonetheless, 99% of us concede that you have a heart-warming rags-to-riches story and your laborer is a perfectly fine and decent human being that delivers a work product you are happy with at a price point you are happy with. Can you try to actually address the real issues that I and many others have raised? We are asking you to engage in the actual exchange of ideas?

1. Assume your laborer is completing 2000 hours worth of work per year. At $36/hour he's grossing $72,000 per year. What salary would an American or properly documented immigrant in a job role that complies with all applicable laws need to earn pre-tax to get to the same purchasing power enjoyed by your laborer?

2. Immigration is always and everywhere an issue of scale. If your laborer were the only undocumented worker in the county, barely anybody would care and it would be a non-issue. It is 2000 labor hours in a country as big as the United States. No big deal. Best estimates suggest there are somewhere between 8 and 12 million undocumented laborers in the USA. Now we are talking about a massive 24 billion+ labor hours. Assume an average wage of $25/hour. That is $600 billion in wages. At a time when the working class is constantly getting squeezed from all angles, do you really not see why the scale of this is an issue?

3. Do you agree or disagree that increasing the supply of labor, especially by using black and gray market labor, reduces the market clearing price of labor? Do you really think it is unreasonable for legal labor to have a problem with this? If so, are you also against labor unions and their tactics for creating scarcity of labor and increasing the value of labor? What do you think would happen to the cost of labor in this country if the supply of labor was reduced by removing/preventing unauthorized workers? What do you think would happen to the cost of housing if the 12 to 20 million unauthorized migrants were no longer in the country (hint: demand goes down while supply remains stable)?

4. In my jurisdiction, the unauthorized practice of law is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Can you please reconcile the fact that your livelihood and fortune were made off of a special government license that was required to legally engage in your chosen craft yet you simultaneously seem to have nothing but contempt for people that want their livelihoods protected by limiting the labor pool to properly authorized workers?

Again, I and many others in this thread concede your wonderful story of seemingly overcoming really bad odds and also concede that your undocumented laborer is a fine, hardworking person and that you are highly satisfied with his work product. Can you try to actually address the issues listed above?

1. What salary would an American or properly documented immigrant in a job role that complies with all applicable laws need to earn pre-tax to get to the same purchasing power enjoyed by your laborer?


Answer: $36 an hour. The same that I pay my laborer. Why? Because that's what I'd pay any of them to work on my lawn. I'd never hire a company to send one of their employees to do the work that he does. I'd hire a worker directly, just as I did with him. I'd post on our community Facebook page "anybody looking for yard work?" I'd hire somebody, and I'd pay them $36 an hour. I'll leave it to them to deal with their taxes, which under the law I'm allowed to do.

Most recent example: for the last several years the same company has been opening and closing the swimming pool at the beginning and end of the season. This year we're having a scheduling issue. So I recently posted on Facebook looking for somebody else and so-and-so sent me contact info for so-and-so. He's just a guy who knows how to close pools. I'm hiring him and paying him exactly what I paid the company. I'm not asking because I don't care, but every indication is that he's a native born American citizen. And I imagine he'll net make more money from me than the guys who work for the company that did it last year because I'm paying the full amount to him (essentially the same price according to the quote, plus chemicals). And we all know he likely will fudge on his taxes, right? Is that MY problem? Are you telling me that every time I hire someone to do anything on my property I need to follow up and make sure they comply with the tax laws? Do you do that? Are you also telling me that I shouldn't hire any laborer who acts as a free lancer because he's driving his competitors' pricing down?

2. At a time when the working class is constantly getting squeezed from all angles, do you really not see why the scale of this is an issue?


An issue? Sure. But as I just illustrated, that doesn't mean that everyone who hires an undocumented worker is driving wages down. Only those who do hire undocumented workers because they're cheaper are doing that. I didn't hire my guy for that reason. I'm paying above market, not below.

3. Do you agree or disagree that increasing the supply of labor, especially by using black and gray market labor, reduces the market clearing price of labor? Generally, sure, but I'm not an economist. Do you really think it is unreasonable for legal labor to have a problem with this? I never said it was unreasonable. The better question is: is it my problem? My answer is "no." If so, are you also against labor unions and their tactics for creating scarcity of labor and increasing the value of labor? This is a broad question -- I generally support labor unions but not all of their tactics, no.
What do you think would happen to the cost of labor in this country if the supply of labor was reduced by removing/preventing unauthorized workers? What do you think would happen to the cost of housing if the 12 to 20 million unauthorized migrants were no longer in the country (hint: demand goes down while supply remains stable)? My guess is that wages would go up, theoretically, but I don't agree with the premise of your question, which is basically that only certain people (citizens and documented worker) deserve living wages and others (undocumented workers) don't. I don't feel that way.

4. In my jurisdiction, the unauthorized practice of law is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Can you please reconcile the fact that your livelihood and fortune were made off of a special government license that was required to legally engage in your chosen craft yet you simultaneously seem to have nothing but contempt for people that want their livelihoods protected by limiting the labor pool to properly authorized workers?


Easily. Lawyers need to be member of the bar to ensure that the public is protected from permanent harm to their legal interests by being represented by lawyers without the minimum qualifications. Just as you need a medical license to protect the public from being operated on by a quack.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a home in a very red state, and we and the neighbors are all happily harboring an undocumented immigrant from Latin America who does tremendous yardwork for all of us. We pay very very well. And we advise on how to keep their head low and avoid ICE.


I have no qualms about this. What is going on in this country right now is morally wrong. These people work their butts off, are law abiding good people and make our country great. THEY’RE doing that. Not MAGA.

? By definition they're not "law abiding" if they didn't come in through the lawful methods. The US gives 1 million green cards, tons of various visas and anyone with a legitimate claim can seek asylum. So why didn't your maintenance man?

You don’t understand immigration law. Not even a little bit. If you did, you’d know that under current (and past) law there’s no feasible way for a guy in his position to get either permanent residency or citizenship. He came for economic reasons. The USA doesn’t allow that for anyone in his circumstances. None of the ways that you have described apply. It’s really not that complicated.

There aren't exit controls if you self deport, then couldn't this person wait X number of years to legally come in?

Seems like there is a solution, though it is a inconvinent one.

Please explain exactly how this would happen. Hint: the answer is no. This person could not simply "wait X years to legally come in." I'll say it again: There currently is no legal line for a guy like this to get into the country as a legal, permanent and documented worker and there never was.