Why do atheists post on the Religion forum?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

What a terrific get out of jail free card! And since your conversion, you're in the queue for salvation before small children dying of dysentery and measles and poverty in non-Christian communities?

I never said that. The question of what happens to the unreached is a difficult one and I am comfortable saying that I don’t know the answer. You also don’t need to have every answer in order to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

Hello, true Christian -- I'm glad you feel better now that your perspective on life has changed.

What do you think about Trump being an atheist? It would be nice to hear from others about this too.

This is a super interesting perspective. Honestly, I had never even looked at this way, but I think you are completely right. Trump is certainly NOT a Christian who believes in the same doctrine I just set forth above.

I also think it’s interesting that all of the objections to Trump — his selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness, etc. — when you are criticize him you are criticizing him using Christian standards. If you an atheist and God doesn’t exist, then it’s just a strong eats the weak type world and why does it matter if Trump does any of this stuff? In fact, Trump would have fit in quite well in the Roman Empire and the way that its leaders acted and behaved.

Thanks for responding. Please note I have corrected your comment, as per your expressed wishes.

The bad human characteristics you mention and that I have bolded: "selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness" are bad, without or without religion - and can be present in people irrespective of religious denomination or lack of religion.

I hope you're not saying that all Christians don't have these characteristics and that all atheists do.

Absolutely NOT! Read my other post.

But we primarily care about these things and view them as being generally wrong because of Christian beliefs and standards, explicit or implicit. The problem isn’t that Donald Trump isn’t too Christian — it’s that he’s not Christian enough.

Have you read the Bible, especially the examples of rape, murder, human sacrifice, polygamy and ethnic cleansing. Are these the kind of beliefs and standards you think we should adopt?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25986260-god

Have you read the Sermon on the Mount?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

Hello, true Christian -- I'm glad you feel better now that your perspective on life has changed.

What do you think about Trump being an atheist? It would be nice to hear from others about this too.

This is a super interesting perspective. Honestly, I had never even looked at this way, but I think you are completely right. Trump is certainly NOT a Christian who believes in the same doctrine I just set forth above.

I also think it’s interesting that all of the objections to Trump — his selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness, etc. — when you are criticize him you are criticizing him using Christian standards. If you an atheist and God doesn’t exist, then it’s just a strong eats the weak type world and why does it matter if Trump does any of this stuff? In fact, Trump would have fit in quite well in the Roman Empire and the way that its leaders acted and behaved.

Thanks for responding. Please note I have corrected your comment, as per your expressed wishes.

The bad human characteristics you mention and that I have bolded: "selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness" are bad, without or without religion - and can be present in people irrespective of religious denomination or lack of religion.

I hope you're not saying that all Christians don't have these characteristics and that all atheists do.

Absolutely NOT! Read my other post.

But we primarily care about these things and view them as being generally wrong because of Christian beliefs and standards, explicit or implicit. The problem isn’t that Donald Trump isn’t too Christian — it’s that he’s not Christian enough.

Still sounds like you're saying that Trump needs to be more Christian in order to be good. And that atheists are bad.

I am not saying that all atheists are “bad” — I am saying that ALL of us have an inherent sinful nature. But many athesists might live a more “moral” life than me. Christianity is not a contest about who lives a more moral life. That’s moralism and not Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

Hello, true Christian -- I'm glad you feel better now that your perspective on life has changed.

What do you think about Trump being an atheist? It would be nice to hear from others about this too.

This is a super interesting perspective. Honestly, I had never even looked at this way, but I think you are completely right. Trump is certainly NOT a Christian who believes in the same doctrine I just set forth above.

I also think it’s interesting that all of the objections to Trump — his selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness, etc. — when you are criticize him you are criticizing him using Christian standards. If you an atheist and God doesn’t exist, then it’s just a strong eats the weak type world and why does it matter if Trump does any of this stuff? In fact, Trump would have fit in quite well in the Roman Empire and the way that its leaders acted and behaved.

Thanks for responding. Please note I have corrected your comment, as per your expressed wishes.

The bad human characteristics you mention and that I have bolded: "selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness" are bad, without or without religion - and can be present in people irrespective of religious denomination or lack of religion.

I hope you're not saying that all Christians don't have these characteristics and that all atheists do.

Absolutely NOT! Read my other post.

But we primarily care about these things and view them as being generally wrong because of Christian beliefs and standards, explicit or implicit. The problem isn’t that Donald Trump isn’t too Christian — it’s that he’s not Christian enough.

Have you read the Bible, especially the examples of rape, murder, human sacrifice, polygamy and ethnic cleansing. Are these the kind of beliefs and standards you think we should adopt?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25986260-god

Have you read the Sermon on the Mount?

Yes, and the rest of the book. I don't pick and choose passages - I consider the whole thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

Hello, true Christian -- I'm glad you feel better now that your perspective on life has changed.

What do you think about Trump being an atheist? It would be nice to hear from others about this too.

This is a super interesting perspective. Honestly, I had never even looked at this way, but I think you are completely right. Trump is certainly a Christian who believes in the same doctrine I just set forth above.

I also think it’s interesting that all of the objections to Trump — his selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness, etc. — when you are criticize him you are criticizing him using Christian standards. If you an atheist and God doesn’t exist, then it’s just a strong eats the weak type world and why does it matter if Trump does any of this stuff? In fact, Trump would have fit in quite well in the Roman Empire and the way that its leaders acted and behaved.

I assume you are the same poster who continues to not understand how morality works and that it does not have to be based on religious beliefs. Your questions have been addressed and answered in previous posts but you lack the ability to comprehend.

Or we simply disagree about the nature of the universe. That’s it.

I do not understand why atheists feel this “need” to try to prove they are right to the point of insults and the like. Its every bit a fundamentalist mindset as any other religious fundamentalist who cannot accept the idea that some people may have different views and perspectives (and yes many religious fundamentalists do have this view).

I am not saying that anyone has to agree with me or that they are stupid or worse if they don’t. I am just expressing what my beliefs are. Tolerance is the ability to respectfully hear a different point of view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

The problem isn't belief or non-belief. Faith or non-faith. It appears you were just a sh*t person. You lacked the most basic feature to be a functioning adult in modern society - empathy. Or, in your religious context, following the golden rule (which basically all religions have some form of).

Belief in a myth is not going to resolve your problems. You need mental health help. There is nothing wrong with going to therapy. You have a lot to unpack to understand why you lack empathy. If you had a wound on your hand that was beginning to fester, would you not seek out treatment? Same goes with mental.

I actually spent A LOT of time in therapy and twelve step meetings and all kinds of other stuff and it did not do very much in the end.

I can understand that you don’t believe. I am not here to convince you otherwise.

But there are millions and millions of people whose lives have been changed for the better because of religion. You can recognize it as having a positive impact on some people without believing in it yourself. Or maybe you can’t in which case that shows just how close-minded you are.

Which part of the post (or any previous posts) indicated that religion has never had a positive impact? I don't see that anywhere. That is a distraction to the basis of the last couple of pages which are 1) morals don't have to be based on religion and 2) religion does have a negative impact on society.

And, if the 12 step meetings were part of AA, those are problematic since they have a heavy infusion of religion into them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

The problem isn't belief or non-belief. Faith or non-faith. It appears you were just a sh*t person. You lacked the most basic feature to be a functioning adult in modern society - empathy. Or, in your religious context, following the golden rule (which basically all religions have some form of).

Belief in a myth is not going to resolve your problems. You need mental health help. There is nothing wrong with going to therapy. You have a lot to unpack to understand why you lack empathy. If you had a wound on your hand that was beginning to fester, would you not seek out treatment? Same goes with mental.

You know, Christians often speak about trying to show our good side when we're trying to convert someone. If I judge by this thread, atheists think flinging around insults is the best way to convert people to their belief system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

Hello, true Christian -- I'm glad you feel better now that your perspective on life has changed.

What do you think about Trump being an atheist? It would be nice to hear from others about this too.

This is a super interesting perspective. Honestly, I had never even looked at this way, but I think you are completely right. Trump is certainly NOT a Christian who believes in the same doctrine I just set forth above.

I also think it’s interesting that all of the objections to Trump — his selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness, etc. — when you are criticize him you are criticizing him using Christian standards. If you an atheist and God doesn’t exist, then it’s just a strong eats the weak type world and why does it matter if Trump does any of this stuff? In fact, Trump would have fit in quite well in the Roman Empire and the way that its leaders acted and behaved.

Thanks for responding. Please note I have corrected your comment, as per your expressed wishes.

The bad human characteristics you mention and that I have bolded: "selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness" are bad, without or without religion - and can be present in people irrespective of religious denomination or lack of religion.

I hope you're not saying that all Christians don't have these characteristics and that all atheists do.

Absolutely NOT! Read my other post.

But we primarily care about these things and view them as being generally wrong because of Christian beliefs and standards, explicit or implicit. The problem isn’t that Donald Trump isn’t too Christian — it’s that he’s not Christian enough.

Still sounds like you're saying that Trump needs to be more Christian in order to be good. And that atheists are bad.

I am not saying that all atheists are “bad” — I am saying that ALL of us have an inherent sinful nature. But many athesists might live a more “moral” life than me. Christianity is not a contest about who lives a more moral life. That’s moralism and not Christianity.

Not if you want salvation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

Hello, true Christian -- I'm glad you feel better now that your perspective on life has changed.

What do you think about Trump being an atheist? It would be nice to hear from others about this too.

This is a super interesting perspective. Honestly, I had never even looked at this way, but I think you are completely right. Trump is certainly NOT a Christian who believes in the same doctrine I just set forth above.

I also think it’s interesting that all of the objections to Trump — his selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness, etc. — when you are criticize him you are criticizing him using Christian standards. If you an atheist and God doesn’t exist, then it’s just a strong eats the weak type world and why does it matter if Trump does any of this stuff? In fact, Trump would have fit in quite well in the Roman Empire and the way that its leaders acted and behaved.

Thanks for responding. Please note I have corrected your comment, as per your expressed wishes.

The bad human characteristics you mention and that I have bolded: "selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness" are bad, without or without religion - and can be present in people irrespective of religious denomination or lack of religion.

I hope you're not saying that all Christians don't have these characteristics and that all atheists do.

Absolutely NOT! Read my other post.

But we primarily care about these things and view them as being generally wrong because of Christian beliefs and standards, explicit or implicit. The problem isn’t that Donald Trump isn’t too Christian — it’s that he’s not Christian enough.

Still sounds like you're saying that Trump needs to be more Christian in order to be good. And that atheists are bad.

I am not saying that all atheists are “bad” — I am saying that ALL of us have an inherent sinful nature. But many athesists might live a more “moral” life than me. Christianity is not a contest about who lives a more moral life. That’s moralism and not Christianity.

We do not have an inherent sinful nature. Sin is a construct of religion.

You're right about christianity and moralism, but the problem, as pointed out before, are the overwhelming number of christians trying to impose their beliefs on others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

The problem isn't belief or non-belief. Faith or non-faith. It appears you were just a sh*t person. You lacked the most basic feature to be a functioning adult in modern society - empathy. Or, in your religious context, following the golden rule (which basically all religions have some form of).

Belief in a myth is not going to resolve your problems. You need mental health help. There is nothing wrong with going to therapy. You have a lot to unpack to understand why you lack empathy. If you had a wound on your hand that was beginning to fester, would you not seek out treatment? Same goes with mental.

You know, Christians often speak about trying to show our good side when we're trying to convert someone. If I judge by this thread, atheists think flinging around insults is the best way to convert people to their belief system.

Truth is truth. It is not good or bad. It simply is.

Those that cannot accept truth may view it as an insult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

The problem isn't belief or non-belief. Faith or non-faith. It appears you were just a sh*t person. You lacked the most basic feature to be a functioning adult in modern society - empathy. Or, in your religious context, following the golden rule (which basically all religions have some form of).

Belief in a myth is not going to resolve your problems. You need mental health help. There is nothing wrong with going to therapy. You have a lot to unpack to understand why you lack empathy. If you had a wound on your hand that was beginning to fester, would you not seek out treatment? Same goes with mental.

I actually spent A LOT of time in therapy and twelve step meetings and all kinds of other stuff and it did not do very much in the end.

I can understand that you don’t believe. I am not here to convince you otherwise.

But there are millions and millions of people whose lives have been changed for the better because of religion. You can recognize it as having a positive impact on some people without believing in it yourself. Or maybe you can’t in which case that shows just how close-minded you are.

Which part of the post (or any previous posts) indicated that religion has never had a positive impact? I don't see that anywhere. That is a distraction to the basis of the last couple of pages which are 1) morals don't have to be based on religion and 2) religion does have a negative impact on society.

And, if the 12 step meetings were part of AA, those are problematic since they have a heavy infusion of religion into them.

Oh, so now, we can agree that religion can in fact have a positive impact? Please read back through this entire thread where, yes, multiple people — especially whoever kept calling religion the “Bronze Age myth” — were implying on every single post that religion was not capable of providing this social good. But, hey, I am happy to see it acknowledged now.

I have many problems with twelves step meetings. There is no guarantee that people who are just as screwed up as you are actually have any advice useful about how to change your life. Many of them have very bad advice in my experience. Also, believing in some abstract “god” or “higher power” did very little for me in terms of change for me. It was only until I discovered a savior who actually lived amongst us that God became beautiful and real to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

The problem isn't belief or non-belief. Faith or non-faith. It appears you were just a sh*t person. You lacked the most basic feature to be a functioning adult in modern society - empathy. Or, in your religious context, following the golden rule (which basically all religions have some form of).

Belief in a myth is not going to resolve your problems. You need mental health help. There is nothing wrong with going to therapy. You have a lot to unpack to understand why you lack empathy. If you had a wound on your hand that was beginning to fester, would you not seek out treatment? Same goes with mental.

You know, Christians often speak about trying to show our good side when we're trying to convert someone. If I judge by this thread, atheists think flinging around insults is the best way to convert people to their belief system.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

The problem isn't belief or non-belief. Faith or non-faith. It appears you were just a sh*t person. You lacked the most basic feature to be a functioning adult in modern society - empathy. Or, in your religious context, following the golden rule (which basically all religions have some form of).

Belief in a myth is not going to resolve your problems. You need mental health help. There is nothing wrong with going to therapy. You have a lot to unpack to understand why you lack empathy. If you had a wound on your hand that was beginning to fester, would you not seek out treatment? Same goes with mental.

I actually spent A LOT of time in therapy and twelve step meetings and all kinds of other stuff and it did not do very much in the end.

I can understand that you don’t believe. I am not here to convince you otherwise.

But there are millions and millions of people whose lives have been changed for the better because of religion. You can recognize it as having a positive impact on some people without believing in it yourself. Or maybe you can’t in which case that shows just how close-minded you are.

Which part of the post (or any previous posts) indicated that religion has never had a positive impact? I don't see that anywhere. That is a distraction to the basis of the last couple of pages which are 1) morals don't have to be based on religion and 2) religion does have a negative impact on society.

And, if the 12 step meetings were part of AA, those are problematic since they have a heavy infusion of religion into them.

Oh, so now, we can agree that religion can in fact have a positive impact? Please read back through this entire thread where, yes, multiple people — especially whoever kept calling religion the “Bronze Age myth” — were implying on every single post that religion was not capable of providing this social good. But, hey, I am happy to see it acknowledged now.

I have many problems with twelves step meetings. There is no guarantee that people who are just as screwed up as you are actually have any advice useful about how to change your life. Many of them have very bad advice in my experience. Also, believing in some abstract “god” or “higher power” did very little for me in terms of change for me. It was only until I discovered a savior who actually lived amongst us that God became beautiful and real to me.

Thanks for your conduct of yourself on this thread, PP. Your humility shows and does credit to you and to your Savior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

Hello, true Christian -- I'm glad you feel better now that your perspective on life has changed.

What do you think about Trump being an atheist? It would be nice to hear from others about this too.

This is a super interesting perspective. Honestly, I had never even looked at this way, but I think you are completely right. Trump is certainly NOT a Christian who believes in the same doctrine I just set forth above.

I also think it’s interesting that all of the objections to Trump — his selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness, etc. — when you are criticize him you are criticizing him using Christian standards. If you an atheist and God doesn’t exist, then it’s just a strong eats the weak type world and why does it matter if Trump does any of this stuff? In fact, Trump would have fit in quite well in the Roman Empire and the way that its leaders acted and behaved.

Thanks for responding. Please note I have corrected your comment, as per your expressed wishes.

The bad human characteristics you mention and that I have bolded: "selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, dishonesty, crudeness" are bad, without or without religion - and can be present in people irrespective of religious denomination or lack of religion.

I hope you're not saying that all Christians don't have these characteristics and that all atheists do.

Absolutely NOT! Read my other post.

But we primarily care about these things and view them as being generally wrong because of Christian beliefs and standards, explicit or implicit. The problem isn’t that Donald Trump isn’t too Christian — it’s that he’s not Christian enough.

Still sounds like you're saying that Trump needs to be more Christian in order to be good. And that atheists are bad.

I am not saying that all atheists are “bad” — I am saying that ALL of us have an inherent sinful nature. But many athesists might live a more “moral” life than me. Christianity is not a contest about who lives a more moral life. That’s moralism and not Christianity.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Given how sleepy the religion forum was for a while until recently, I'm guessing OP is the atheist (singular). Not sure why it brings OP so much joy to jump down the throats of theists regularly, but I guess we all have to find our purpose in life somewhere.

There is at least one atheist poster with a very distinct writing style who has been spending hours in this thread alone. I wonder if they are spiraling in a mental health episode.

Don't worry about them. Think of your own possible mental health episode.

Believing in God is still the default position in the US, so you're safe in that respect, and whether or not you voted for the guy who was elected to be our next president, you can certainly thank a lot of religious people for electing him.

And to think -- he's an atheist!

How do I know? -- I don't, but I've never put the question to an atheist who disagreed with me, although reluctantly, after some thought.

It forces us to acknowledge that all atheists are not good people. Why should they be? Believers are not all good people, despite the fact that they have lists of rules to follow, supposedly set forth by their various gods.

I am a believer and the fact that I am NOT a “moral” or “good” person is central to my faith and my conversion. I completely screwed up one marriage, was en route to screwing up the second one, and was a selfish, money and career obsessed person (very common in the DMV). I used to think that religion was just about following the rules and I didn’t do a very good job of that, so what was the point?

Then I discovered true Christianity which is that we are sinners saved by grace and that our salvation is not dependent upon our record but on Jesus’s record — which we receive when we have faith in him. Every other major world religion says “try really hard” and MAYBE it will work out OK. Christianity says exactly the opposite — it is a religion for those who admit that they are weak and in need of help. Jesus could have spent all of his time hanging out with the Pharisees and other religious leaders of the day — instead he spent his time savings sinners and being critical of the Pharisees because they were hypocrites.

This perspective on life completely changes how I relate to other people too. Instead of being judgmental and harsh towards other people, I see other people as having flaws just like I have. I can’t feel superior to anyone else when I am cognizant of my own flaws. Yet I have complete confidence because I am loved by Jesus and he died for me and my sins.

It’s a radical and liberating way of living and very different from a “moralism” competition on who follows the rules the best.

The problem isn't belief or non-belief. Faith or non-faith. It appears you were just a sh*t person. You lacked the most basic feature to be a functioning adult in modern society - empathy. Or, in your religious context, following the golden rule (which basically all religions have some form of).

Belief in a myth is not going to resolve your problems. You need mental health help. There is nothing wrong with going to therapy. You have a lot to unpack to understand why you lack empathy. If you had a wound on your hand that was beginning to fester, would you not seek out treatment? Same goes with mental.

I actually spent A LOT of time in therapy and twelve step meetings and all kinds of other stuff and it did not do very much in the end.

I can understand that you don’t believe. I am not here to convince you otherwise.

But there are millions and millions of people whose lives have been changed for the better because of religion. You can recognize it as having a positive impact on some people without believing in it yourself. Or maybe you can’t in which case that shows just how close-minded you are.

Which part of the post (or any previous posts) indicated that religion has never had a positive impact? I don't see that anywhere. That is a distraction to the basis of the last couple of pages which are 1) morals don't have to be based on religion and 2) religion does have a negative impact on society.

And, if the 12 step meetings were part of AA, those are problematic since they have a heavy infusion of religion into them.

Oh, so now, we can agree that religion can in fact have a positive impact? Please read back through this entire thread where, yes, multiple people — especially whoever kept calling religion the “Bronze Age myth” — were implying on every single post that religion was not capable of providing this social good. But, hey, I am happy to see it acknowledged now.

I have many problems with twelves step meetings. There is no guarantee that people who are just as screwed up as you are actually have any advice useful about how to change your life. Many of them have very bad advice in my experience. Also, believing in some abstract “god” or “higher power” did very little for me in terms of change for me. It was only until I discovered a savior who actually lived amongst us that God became beautiful and real to me.

I am the "bronze age myth" poster. I implied no such thing, and in fact I was very explicit about what my issue is. That people's modern adherence to bronze age myths is doing real harm to real people in real time today. That's it.