To you, what's the bottom of the "elite" colleges?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mental list:

1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/Columbia
5 - MIT
6 - UPenn/Chicago
8 - Northwestern/Duke/Cornell

Not exactly informed by rankings, but by my 20+ years in MBB consulting and relatives in academia. Make of it what you will.

Princeton was omitted.

23 Elites:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/MIT
5 - Princeton
6 - Columbia/UPenn/Chicago
9 - Caltech/Duke/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Northwestern/Hopkins/Berkley
17 - Amherst/Williams
19 - Rice/UCLA/UVA/Georgetown/Michigan

Should there be more?

Elite stops with row 9. The rest are not relevant to the general population or globally.

Elite is relative so it is pretty meaningless and there are multiple areas in which a school may be considered elite (undergraduate, graduate professional, other graduate, research and publications, athletics, etc.). There are really only a few schools where there is a reasonable likelihood that most enrolled students are really attending their absolute top choice if all options are open to them, and those are Harvard, Stanford, and MIT. The other possible ones there, but less likely are Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. (Caltech is still pretty attractive to a small set of students that want a more theory-driven and pre-academic option compared to MIT.) If a student is interested in military service, then West Point, Annapolis, and the Air Force Academy would join the list. Beyond that, all the schools listed above are second choice and down. At the graduate level, there is too much variation to contemplate, as PhD students often pick on who they may be studying with in their field of interest.

In my view if you are extending to LACs as the above shows with Amherst and Williams there are a number of others that should be included like Pomona and Swarthmore, but they are obviously only potentially elite in the undergraduate education context. Likewise, if you look at some of the schools above like Dartmouth, Brown, Rice, UVA, Georgetown, they are far from elite across the board in research, influential papers, graduate and undergraduate STEM, etc. Schools like Washington, Texas, Wisconsin, UCSD, and North Carolina are generally stronger than they are in a number of these areas.

I would also say there are quite a few schools that have similar or better stats than say UVA. Emory and Notre Dame are examples. I am not sure what the basis is for excluding them.

There are a lot of students who would be competitive (or as competitive as those who apply) at Harvard, Stanford, and MIT who set their sights on other elite schools, at least at the undergraduate level. Harvard has a reputation for arrogance and ignoring undergraduates, Stanford is on the West Coast, and MIT is a niche school with a STEM focus.

Harvard and Stanford have over 80% yield rates and MIT is at 77% and they aren't doing it by locking in based on EA. What other schools can do that?

Stamford offers full scholarship to athletes to lock them in. What elite school does that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mental list:

1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/Columbia
5 - MIT
6 - UPenn/Chicago
8 - Northwestern/Duke/Cornell

Not exactly informed by rankings, but by my 20+ years in MBB consulting and relatives in academia. Make of it what you will.

Princeton was omitted.

23 Elites:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/MIT
5 - Princeton
6 - Columbia/UPenn/Chicago
9 - Caltech/Duke/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Northwestern/Hopkins/Berkley
17 - Amherst/Williams
19 - Rice/UCLA/UVA/Georgetown/Michigan

Should there be more?

Elite stops with row 9. The rest are not relevant to the general population or globally.

Elite is relative so it is pretty meaningless and there are multiple areas in which a school may be considered elite (undergraduate, graduate professional, other graduate, research and publications, athletics, etc.). There are really only a few schools where there is a reasonable likelihood that most enrolled students are really attending their absolute top choice if all options are open to them, and those are Harvard, Stanford, and MIT. The other possible ones there, but less likely are Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. (Caltech is still pretty attractive to a small set of students that want a more theory-driven and pre-academic option compared to MIT.) If a student is interested in military service, then West Point, Annapolis, and the Air Force Academy would join the list. Beyond that, all the schools listed above are second choice and down. At the graduate level, there is too much variation to contemplate, as PhD students often pick on who they may be studying with in their field of interest.

In my view if you are extending to LACs as the above shows with Amherst and Williams there are a number of others that should be included like Pomona and Swarthmore, but they are obviously only potentially elite in the undergraduate education context. Likewise, if you look at some of the schools above like Dartmouth, Brown, Rice, UVA, Georgetown, they are far from elite across the board in research, influential papers, graduate and undergraduate STEM, etc. Schools like Washington, Texas, Wisconsin, UCSD, and North Carolina are generally stronger than they are in a number of these areas.

I would also say there are quite a few schools that have similar or better stats than say UVA. Emory and Notre Dame are examples. I am not sure what the basis is for excluding them.

There are a lot of students who would be competitive (or as competitive as those who apply) at Harvard, Stanford, and MIT who set their sights on other elite schools, at least at the undergraduate level. Harvard has a reputation for arrogance and ignoring undergraduates, Stanford is on the West Coast, and MIT is a niche school with a STEM focus.

Harvard and Stanford have over 80% yield rates and MIT is at 77% and they aren't doing it by locking in based on EA. What other schools can do that?

Stamford offers full scholarship to athletes to lock them in. What elite school does that?

If you want elite athletes, you need to offer elite scholarships. Stanford is competing against schools that are true. D1 powerhouses.

[Anonymous]

“23 Elites:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/MIT
5 - Princeton
6 - Columbia/UPenn/Chicago
9 - Caltech/Duke/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Northwestern/Hopkins/Berkley
17 - Amherst/Williams
19 - Rice/UCLA/UVA/Georgetown/Michigan

Should there be more?


Elite stops with row 9. The rest are not relevant to the general population or globally.”

Berkeley not elite globally? You’re seriously that uninformed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“23 Elites:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/MIT
5 - Princeton
6 - Columbia/UPenn/Chicago
9 - Caltech/Duke/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Northwestern/Hopkins/Berkley
17 - Amherst/Williams
19 - Rice/UCLA/UVA/Georgetown/Michigan

Should there be more?


Elite stops with row 9. The rest are not relevant to the general population or globally.”

Berkeley not elite globally? You’re seriously that uninformed?

Berkeley is on row 9...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“23 Elites:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/MIT
5 - Princeton
6 - Columbia/UPenn/Chicago
9 - Caltech/Duke/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Northwestern/Hopkins/Berkley
17 - Amherst/Williams
19 - Rice/UCLA/UVA/Georgetown/Michigan

Should there be more?


Elite stops with row 9. The rest are not relevant to the general population or globally.”

Berkeley not elite globally? You’re seriously that uninformed?

I lowered it to 19 Elites:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/MIT
5 - Princeton
6 - Columbia/UPenn/Chicago
9 - Caltech/Duke/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Northwestern/Hopkins/Berkley
17 - Amherst/Williams/Swathmore

Any complaints?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1 - Harvard/Stanford
3 - Yale/MIT/Columbia/Princeton
7 - Chicago/Penn
9 - Northwestern/Caltech/Duke
12 - Johns Hopkins/Cornell/Brown/Dartmouth

That's it. That's the top 15. The elite of the elite. We can call it now.

This is the list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mental list:

1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/Columbia
5 - MIT
6 - UPenn/Chicago
8 - Northwestern/Duke/Cornell

Not exactly informed by rankings, but by my 20+ years in MBB consulting and relatives in academia. Make of it what you will.

Princeton was omitted.

23 Elites:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/MIT
5 - Princeton
6 - Columbia/UPenn/Chicago
9 - Caltech/Duke/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Northwestern/Hopkins/Berkley
17 - Amherst/Williams
19 - Rice/UCLA/UVA/Georgetown/Michigan

Should there be more?

Elite stops with row 9. The rest are not relevant to the general population or globally.

Elite is relative so it is pretty meaningless and there are multiple areas in which a school may be considered elite (undergraduate, graduate professional, other graduate, research and publications, athletics, etc.). There are really only a few schools where there is a reasonable likelihood that most enrolled students are really attending their absolute top choice if all options are open to them, and those are Harvard, Stanford, and MIT. The other possible ones there, but less likely are Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. (Caltech is still pretty attractive to a small set of students that want a more theory-driven and pre-academic option compared to MIT.) If a student is interested in military service, then West Point, Annapolis, and the Air Force Academy would join the list. Beyond that, all the schools listed above are second choice and down. At the graduate level, there is too much variation to contemplate, as PhD students often pick on who they may be studying with in their field of interest.

In my view if you are extending to LACs as the above shows with Amherst and Williams there are a number of others that should be included like Pomona and Swarthmore, but they are obviously only potentially elite in the undergraduate education context. Likewise, if you look at some of the schools above like Dartmouth, Brown, Rice, UVA, Georgetown, they are far from elite across the board in research, influential papers, graduate and undergraduate STEM, etc. Schools like Washington, Texas, Wisconsin, UCSD, and North Carolina are generally stronger than they are in a number of these areas.

I would also say there are quite a few schools that have similar or better stats than say UVA. Emory and Notre Dame are examples. I am not sure what the basis is for excluding them.

There are a lot of students who would be competitive (or as competitive as those who apply) at Harvard, Stanford, and MIT who set their sights on other elite schools, at least at the undergraduate level. Harvard has a reputation for arrogance and ignoring undergraduates, Stanford is on the West Coast, and MIT is a niche school with a STEM focus.

Harvard and Stanford have over 80% yield rates and MIT is at 77% and they aren't doing it by locking in based on EA. What other schools can do that?

Stamford offers full scholarship to athletes to lock them in. What elite school does that?

Stanford had won 25 consecutive NCAA Directors Cups in a row before Texas won it this past year. The Directors Cup goes to the college athletic department that had the most high-placing finishes in NCAA Championship action. Stanford has also won the most NCAA team titles. Stanford students and graduates have won the second most Olympic medals (USC if first) among U.S. universities, and was the top medal producing college at the Tokyo Olympics. The 26 medals won by Stanford would have placed it just behind France and ahead of Canada if it was a country.

So Stanford is elite in athletics as well as undergraduate study, graduate study, and research. It is also pretty much without peer in its contribution to generating a dynamic tech area (Silicon Valley) in its area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1 - Harvard/Stanford
3 - Yale/MIT/Columbia/Princeton
7 - Chicago/Penn
9 - Northwestern/Caltech/Duke
12 - Johns Hopkins/Cornell/Brown/Dartmouth

That's it. That's the top 15. The elite of the elite. We can call it now.

This is the list.

Most accurate list so far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1 - Harvard/Stanford
3 - Yale/MIT/Columbia/Princeton
7 - Chicago/Penn
9 - Northwestern/Caltech/Duke
12 - Johns Hopkins/Cornell/Brown/Dartmouth

That's it. That's the top 15. The elite of the elite. We can call it now.

This is the list.

Most accurate list so far.

Most accurate for something that is subjective?

[Anonymous]

Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Duke. MAYBE UChicago. Maybe. That's it.

[Anonymous]

Probably one of the public Ivies like Michigan or UNC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1 - Harvard/Stanford
3 - Yale/MIT/Columbia/Princeton
7 - Chicago/Penn
9 - Northwestern/Caltech/Duke
12 - Johns Hopkins/Cornell/Brown/Dartmouth

That's it. That's the top 15. The elite of the elite. We can call it now.

Columbia doesn't belong to T5.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mental list:

1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/Columbia
5 - MIT
6 - UPenn/Chicago
8 - Northwestern/Duke/Cornell

Not exactly informed by rankings, but by my 20+ years in MBB consulting and relatives in academia. Make of it what you will.

Princeton was omitted.

23 Elites:
1 - Harvard
2 - Yale
3 - Stanford/MIT
5 - Princeton
6 - Columbia/UPenn/Chicago
9 - Caltech/Duke/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Northwestern/Hopkins/Berkley
17 - Amherst/Williams
19 - Rice/UCLA/UVA/Georgetown/Michigan

Should there be more?

Elite stops with row 9. The rest are not relevant to the general population or globally.

Elite is relative so it is pretty meaningless and there are multiple areas in which a school may be considered elite (undergraduate, graduate professional, other graduate, research and publications, athletics, etc.). There are really only a few schools where there is a reasonable likelihood that most enrolled students are really attending their absolute top choice if all options are open to them, and those are Harvard, Stanford, and MIT. The other possible ones there, but less likely are Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. (Caltech is still pretty attractive to a small set of students that want a more theory-driven and pre-academic option compared to MIT.) If a student is interested in military service, then West Point, Annapolis, and the Air Force Academy would join the list. Beyond that, all the schools listed above are second choice and down. At the graduate level, there is too much variation to contemplate, as PhD students often pick on who they may be studying with in their field of interest.

In my view if you are extending to LACs as the above shows with Amherst and Williams there are a number of others that should be included like Pomona and Swarthmore, but they are obviously only potentially elite in the undergraduate education context. Likewise, if you look at some of the schools above like Dartmouth, Brown, Rice, UVA, Georgetown, they are far from elite across the board in research, influential papers, graduate and undergraduate STEM, etc. Schools like Washington, Texas, Wisconsin, UCSD, and North Carolina are generally stronger than they are in a number of these areas.

I would also say there are quite a few schools that have similar or better stats than say UVA. Emory and Notre Dame are examples. I am not sure what the basis is for excluding them.

There are a lot of students who would be competitive (or as competitive as those who apply) at Harvard, Stanford, and MIT who set their sights on other elite schools, at least at the undergraduate level. Harvard has a reputation for arrogance and ignoring undergraduates, Stanford is on the West Coast, and MIT is a niche school with a STEM focus.

Harvard and Stanford have over 80% yield rates and MIT is at 77% and they aren't doing it by locking in based on EA. What other schools can do that?

Stamford offers full scholarship to athletes to lock them in. What elite school does that?

Stanford had won 25 consecutive NCAA Directors Cups in a row before Texas won it this past year. The Directors Cup goes to the college athletic department that had the most high-placing finishes in NCAA Championship action. Stanford has also won the most NCAA team titles. Stanford students and graduates have won the second most Olympic medals (USC if first) among U.S. universities, and was the top medal producing college at the Tokyo Olympics. The 26 medals won by Stanford would have placed it just behind France and ahead of Canada if it was a country.

So Stanford is elite in athletics as well as undergraduate study, graduate study, and research. It is also pretty much without peer in its contribution to generating a dynamic tech area (Silicon Valley) in its area.

I had a professor who was a Stanford alum. This dude never played sports in his life. A complete nerd. He was the typical 40+ yrs old and still a virgin. The poor bastard always had his lunch stolen in the playground. But when there’s a news of Stanford football team on TV, he thumps his chest like a gorilla. It was as if he had just scored. It was as if he had just scored with a girl.

Stanford athletes are the meatheads of the campus. Their scholars are elsewhere working their butts off. If PP is trying to say these Olympic champions are also the future tech geniuses, future fiancé geniuses, future leaders of the world, that’s a hard no. They are there to to give the impression that the sick man of the West Coast have some masculinity in them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1 - Harvard/Stanford
3 - Yale/MIT/Columbia/Princeton
7 - Chicago/Penn
9 - Northwestern/Caltech/Duke
12 - Johns Hopkins/Cornell/Brown/Dartmouth

That's it. That's the top 15. The elite of the elite. We can call it now.

Columbia doesn't belong to T5.

Agreed.
1 - Harvard/Stanford
3 - Yale/MIT/Princeton
6 - Columbia/Penn
8 - Chicago/Caltech/Duke/Northwestern
12 - Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Hopkins

Acceptable?

[Anonymous]

Here is an elaborate and methodical report of assessing the best American research universities.
https://mup.umass.edu/sites/default/files/mup-2017-top-american-research-universities-annual-report.pdf

The schools that came out to be the top tier research universities were the following:

Columbia University
Harvard University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Stanford University
University of Pennsylvania