Are top private colleges mainly for poor people now?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

220k will get you a 900k house in Silver Spring, IB for perfectly good schools, close enough to the metro to commute that way but also not an insane driving commute, meals out a few times a week, a few nice vacations a year, two cars, and once you've saved up for that first down payment and gotten through the childcare years, you'll be able to max out your retirement and put a ton away towards college (unless you choose to have more than 2 kids, but that is on you friend).

The issue is that those of you in this income bracket don't want to live in a 1950s split level in Silver Spring because you think it's beneath you. You think you are middle class because you are living in a house built for a middle class person in 1955. But this is what happens in high COL areas. It doesn't magically make you middle class. You are living in a house worth close to a million dollars. Middle class peopel can't afford that.

OK, but even in Silver Spring, median income is much higher than somewhere like WV. Like I said, it depends on where you live.

Your argument is that the high cost of living magically makes someone making over 200k middle class, but if that income provides you with plenty of very nice options in the region without an obscenely long commute, then no, it doesn't. You're UMC. But none of this matters because (1) your kid isn't getting into Harvard anyway, and (2) if they do, you could absolutely afford to pay the sticker price, it would just take some sacrifice on your part. Whereas an actual middle class family, making under 150k/yr, simply could not afford it no matter how much they sacrifice because they can't afford any kind of home PLUS 70k/yr in tuition. Thus they get money and you don't. Get over it, and maybe focus your attention on making public colleges and universities very high quality and affordable to anyone. Harvard gets to decide how they handle their endowment themselves. They disagree with you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Nope. Actual middle class person living DC here. Family of 3, lives in DC proper, no family money and no, we did not buy a home for cheap back when you could buy a home for cheap in DC. HHI of 130k. Like middle class people everywhere, we make a lot of compromises to live within our means. In DC this means a condo instead of a house, one old car, minimal travel, we almost never eat out, we have tight budgets for clothes and entertainment, etc. That's what it means to be middle class, especially living in a high COL area. We could live much more comfortable in a lower COL area, and we'd still be middle class. Like if we moved to Des Moines tomorrow and keep our salaries, we wouldn't magically be UMC. We'd be middle class people living in a low COL area and it would allow us to afford nice-to-haves like a bigger home, a second car, more money in retirement and college funds, some extra spending money, etc.

This is a big country. We choose to live here. So do you. The fact that we BOTH chose to live here and it's expensive does not suddenly alter the class differences between us. If you make over 220k in DC, you are not middle class (and by the way, a LOT of the people I know making this much in DC also have little inheritances or family that is kicking in for their childcare expenses or sending 5k to their kid's college fund every year or whatever).

There are people living in DC on 40 or 50k, by the way. Not comfortably but they do it. And if their kids get into Harvard, they won't pay a dime and they shouldn't. They will have beaten the odds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

I'm actually UMC from an income perspective, but we drive older cars, don't take fancy vacations, and shop at Old Navy and Kohls.

also, for the most part, you can't keep your salary if you move to IA. It doesn't work that way. For the most part, salary is based on col, that's why there is a thing called COLA. So, if you make $200K here at whatever job you do, chances are your salary would be cut by a lot if you move to IA.

I used to live the Bay Area and my salary was high. When I moved to the DC area, the salary for the exact same position was much lower, and that is because the Bay Area col is still much higher than the DC area.

$200K in the Bay Area is also middle class. That's like middle income for many in the tech industry.

The median household income in Darien, CT is $230,000. Does that mean I am middle class if I live in Darien (one of the wealthiest towns in North America) and make $230k?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:A lot of people who claim to be "donut hole" families have lived lives of increasing lifestyle creep as their incomes have climbed up 200k, and then want to complain that they don't get enough need-based aid. Well, did you really need a new car every 5 years? Expensive vacations? To redo the kitchen?

If you want to argue that a family making over 200k is middle class, then live like middle class people -- budget, accept you won't be able to afford everything you want to do, and sock money away for retirement and college.

We make well under 200k and this is what we do, and we have friends making over who go out to eat three nights a week, drive luxury cars, and take multiple vacations overseas every year, have weekly cleaners, etc. Those people are not entitled to need-based aid. It's not my fault, or the college's fault, that they chose to just live nicer, more luxurious, easier lives instead of saving their additional income for their child's education. We've scrimped and saved and still won't have enough. AND work in helping professions. I don't cry myself to sleep over the doctors and consultants and well-paid feds who will be disappointed in their FA award while crying into their Tesla upholstery and trying to console themselves on the flight to Aruba. Boo freaking hoo.

We make around 200k. Kids have never been abroad. Most vacations are to relatives, but we'll do long weekends at a cheap OBX hotel. Our cars get replaced at the 15 year mark and are not luxury. We still will not be able to pay 4x our annual income to put two kids through college. It's not a big deal because they can go to state school, but people pretending that people should attempt to live in poverty for the off chance that their kid gets into Harvard are insufferable.

+1 My kid is going to a great state school, but that's because we can't afford expensive private -- donut family. It's ridiculous for UMC to be expected to pay the same as wealthy families. $220K in the DC area is considered MC, btw. A HHI of $280K is not *that* different to $220K after taxes.

It's $20-25K extra per year. That's a huge difference. If you have been making that for at least 4 years before college you could have saved $80K in just that timeframe.

Why does everyone feel entitled to expensive private college? Just like most things in life, you go with what you can afford. There are literally still the majority of colleges that are/can be affordable for your family. Making $280K/year puts you in the Top 7-8% of all people in the USA. Let that sink in. You have so many more privileges than 92% of the people in our country.

Sure, but those expensive colleges are $80k per year, and we have multiple kids.

4 years to save $80K, so you'd have to work 16 years to cover $320K full four years of college, maybe a bit less if the markets were favorable during that time, and 32 years to cover two kids at $320K each, assuming you are making the same for 32 years and zero inflation. Let that sink in.

Maybe you only read the parts you wanted to read in my post, but I did say that my kid is going to a great state school with some merit aid.

Also, you have zero knowledge of my background. I didn't grow up UMC. My parents don't even speak English.

And your background is irrelevant. You make $280k/ year. That is no poor. And once again, how many kids you chose to have is your issue. Most families with multiple kids do not send them to elite universities because they can’t afford it. Desire to send them there only have 1 kid (or two).

And that 20k saved per year is jus t difference from w
220 time 280. Someone at 220 can make choices to save as well

My background is irrelevant yes, but math is math. Based on what you stated, such a person would have to work about 30 years to afford that kind of expense. Yes, it's a choice, but you make it sound like it's easy for donut whole families to pay the same amount as families making $800K. Yes, such a family has other choices, but that's not the point. The point is that expensive colleges expect $280K family to afford the same amount as a $800K family. That is ridiculous.

And you make it sound like your kids do not have a way to get a good education. They do—just not t25. But they can go to a t100 school or state school for minimal debt and get a great education.
Fact is most with stats won’t get into t25 anyhow. Do find a great school you can afford

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

220k will get you a 900k house in Silver Spring, IB for perfectly good schools, close enough to the metro to commute that way but also not an insane driving commute, meals out a few times a week, a few nice vacations a year, two cars, and once you've saved up for that first down payment and gotten through the childcare years, you'll be able to max out your retirement and put a ton away towards college (unless you choose to have more than 2 kids, but that is on you friend).

The issue is that those of you in this income bracket don't want to live in a 1950s split level in Silver Spring because you think it's beneath you. You think you are middle class because you are living in a house built for a middle class person in 1955. But this is what happens in high COL areas. It doesn't magically make you middle class. You are living in a house worth close to a million dollars. Middle class peopel can't afford that.

OK, but even in Silver Spring, median income is much higher than somewhere like WV. Like I said, it depends on where you live.

I can’t afford to live in Manhattan, Greenwich, Atherton, Lexington or Palo Alto, so I don’t.

Indeed, and neither can a person who lives in Silver Spring. And btw, the median income in Palo Alto is close to $200k but the median property value is $2mil+.

Again, median income depends on where you live.

Someone making <$200k has no business living there and is making a bad financial decision for attempting to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Nope. Actual middle class person living DC here. Family of 3, lives in DC proper, no family money and no, we did not buy a home for cheap back when you could buy a home for cheap in DC. HHI of 130k. Like middle class people everywhere, we make a lot of compromises to live within our means. In DC this means a condo instead of a house, one old car, minimal travel, we almost never eat out, we have tight budgets for clothes and entertainment, etc. That's what it means to be middle class, especially living in a high COL area. We could live much more comfortable in a lower COL area, and we'd still be middle class. Like if we moved to Des Moines tomorrow and keep our salaries, we wouldn't magically be UMC. We'd be middle class people living in a low COL area and it would allow us to afford nice-to-haves like a bigger home, a second car, more money in retirement and college funds, some extra spending money, etc.

This is a big country. We choose to live here. So do you. The fact that we BOTH chose to live here and it's expensive does not suddenly alter the class differences between us. If you make over 220k in DC, you are not middle class (and by the way, a LOT of the people I know making this much in DC also have little inheritances or family that is kicking in for their childcare expenses or sending 5k to their kid's college fund every year or whatever).

There are people living in DC on 40 or 50k, by the way. Not comfortably but they do it. And if their kids get into Harvard, they won't pay a dime and they shouldn't. They will have beaten the odds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

I'm actually UMC from an income perspective, but we drive older cars, don't take fancy vacations, and shop at Old Navy and Kohls.

also, for the most part, you can't keep your salary if you move to IA. It doesn't work that way. For the most part, salary is based on col, that's why there is a thing called COLA. So, if you make $200K here at whatever job you do, chances are your salary would be cut by a lot if you move to IA.

I used to live the Bay Area and my salary was high. When I moved to the DC area, the salary for the exact same position was much lower, and that is because the Bay Area col is still much higher than the DC area.

$200K in the Bay Area is also middle class. That's like middle income for many in the tech industry.

The median household income in Darien, CT is $230,000. Does that mean I am middle class if I live in Darien (one of the wealthiest towns in North America) and make $230k?

Yes. In Darien, you would have a hard time buying a sfh with that salary, saving for college, paying for daycare, etc..

Really, folks. Why is this so hard to understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

220k will get you a 900k house in Silver Spring, IB for perfectly good schools, close enough to the metro to commute that way but also not an insane driving commute, meals out a few times a week, a few nice vacations a year, two cars, and once you've saved up for that first down payment and gotten through the childcare years, you'll be able to max out your retirement and put a ton away towards college (unless you choose to have more than 2 kids, but that is on you friend).

The issue is that those of you in this income bracket don't want to live in a 1950s split level in Silver Spring because you think it's beneath you. You think you are middle class because you are living in a house built for a middle class person in 1955. But this is what happens in high COL areas. It doesn't magically make you middle class. You are living in a house worth close to a million dollars. Middle class peopel can't afford that.

OK, but even in Silver Spring, median income is much higher than somewhere like WV. Like I said, it depends on where you live.

I can’t afford to live in Manhattan, Greenwich, Atherton, Lexington or Palo Alto, so I don’t.

Indeed, and neither can a person who lives in Silver Spring. And btw, the median income in Palo Alto is close to $200k but the median property value is $2mil+.

Again, median income depends on where you live.

Someone making <$200k has no business living there and is making a bad financial decision for attempting to do so.

I don't disagree, but median income does depend on where you live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Nope. Actual middle class person living DC here. Family of 3, lives in DC proper, no family money and no, we did not buy a home for cheap back when you could buy a home for cheap in DC. HHI of 130k. Like middle class people everywhere, we make a lot of compromises to live within our means. In DC this means a condo instead of a house, one old car, minimal travel, we almost never eat out, we have tight budgets for clothes and entertainment, etc. That's what it means to be middle class, especially living in a high COL area. We could live much more comfortable in a lower COL area, and we'd still be middle class. Like if we moved to Des Moines tomorrow and keep our salaries, we wouldn't magically be UMC. We'd be middle class people living in a low COL area and it would allow us to afford nice-to-haves like a bigger home, a second car, more money in retirement and college funds, some extra spending money, etc.

This is a big country. We choose to live here. So do you. The fact that we BOTH chose to live here and it's expensive does not suddenly alter the class differences between us. If you make over 220k in DC, you are not middle class (and by the way, a LOT of the people I know making this much in DC also have little inheritances or family that is kicking in for their childcare expenses or sending 5k to their kid's college fund every year or whatever).

There are people living in DC on 40 or 50k, by the way. Not comfortably but they do it. And if their kids get into Harvard, they won't pay a dime and they shouldn't. They will have beaten the odds.

Same HHI ($110k gross) here except I have 4 kids. My daughter got $0 financial aid for UMBC. I work 2 retail jobs and my husband has a manager job. We are considered middle class. I am aghast that those in stronger financial positions than us get any $$$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people who claim to be "donut hole" families have lived lives of increasing lifestyle creep as their incomes have climbed up 200k, and then want to complain that they don't get enough need-based aid. Well, did you really need a new car every 5 years? Expensive vacations? To redo the kitchen?

If you want to argue that a family making over 200k is middle class, then live like middle class people -- budget, accept you won't be able to afford everything you want to do, and sock money away for retirement and college.

We make well under 200k and this is what we do, and we have friends making over who go out to eat three nights a week, drive luxury cars, and take multiple vacations overseas every year, have weekly cleaners, etc. Those people are not entitled to need-based aid. It's not my fault, or the college's fault, that they chose to just live nicer, more luxurious, easier lives instead of saving their additional income for their child's education. We've scrimped and saved and still won't have enough. AND work in helping professions. I don't cry myself to sleep over the doctors and consultants and well-paid feds who will be disappointed in their FA award while crying into their Tesla upholstery and trying to console themselves on the flight to Aruba. Boo freaking hoo.

We make around 200k. Kids have never been abroad. Most vacations are to relatives, but we'll do long weekends at a cheap OBX hotel. Our cars get replaced at the 15 year mark and are not luxury. We still will not be able to pay 4x our annual income to put two kids through college. It's not a big deal because they can go to state school, but people pretending that people should attempt to live in poverty for the off chance that their kid gets into Harvard are insufferable.

+1 My kid is going to a great state school, but that's because we can't afford expensive private -- donut family. It's ridiculous for UMC to be expected to pay the same as wealthy families. $220K in the DC area is considered MC, btw. A HHI of $280K is not *that* different to $220K after taxes.

It's $20-25K extra per year. That's a huge difference. If you have been making that for at least 4 years before college you could have saved $80K in just that timeframe.

Why does everyone feel entitled to expensive private college? Just like most things in life, you go with what you can afford. There are literally still the majority of colleges that are/can be affordable for your family. Making $280K/year puts you in the Top 7-8% of all people in the USA. Let that sink in. You have so many more privileges than 92% of the people in our country.

Sure, but those expensive colleges are $80k per year, and we have multiple kids.

4 years to save $80K, so you'd have to work 16 years to cover $320K full four years of college, maybe a bit less if the markets were favorable during that time, and 32 years to cover two kids at $320K each, assuming you are making the same for 32 years and zero inflation. Let that sink in.

Maybe you only read the parts you wanted to read in my post, but I did say that my kid is going to a great state school with some merit aid.

Also, you have zero knowledge of my background. I didn't grow up UMC. My parents don't even speak English.

And your background is irrelevant. You make $280k/ year. That is no poor. And once again, how many kids you chose to have is your issue. Most families with multiple kids do not send them to elite universities because they can’t afford it. Desire to send them there only have 1 kid (or two).

And that 20k saved per year is jus t difference from w
220 time 280. Someone at 220 can make choices to save as well

My background is irrelevant yes, but math is math. Based on what you stated, such a person would have to work about 30 years to afford that kind of expense. Yes, it's a choice, but you make it sound like it's easy for donut whole families to pay the same amount as families making $800K. Yes, such a family has other choices, but that's not the point. The point is that expensive colleges expect $280K family to afford the same amount as a $800K family. That is ridiculous.

And you make it sound like your kids do not have a way to get a good education. They do—just not t25. But they can go to a t100 school or state school for minimal debt and get a great education.
Fact is most with stats won’t get into t25 anyhow. Do find a great school you can afford

Again, that is not the point. And again, my kid is going to a great state school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Nope. Actual middle class person living DC here. Family of 3, lives in DC proper, no family money and no, we did not buy a home for cheap back when you could buy a home for cheap in DC. HHI of 130k. Like middle class people everywhere, we make a lot of compromises to live within our means. In DC this means a condo instead of a house, one old car, minimal travel, we almost never eat out, we have tight budgets for clothes and entertainment, etc. That's what it means to be middle class, especially living in a high COL area. We could live much more comfortable in a lower COL area, and we'd still be middle class. Like if we moved to Des Moines tomorrow and keep our salaries, we wouldn't magically be UMC. We'd be middle class people living in a low COL area and it would allow us to afford nice-to-haves like a bigger home, a second car, more money in retirement and college funds, some extra spending money, etc.

This is a big country. We choose to live here. So do you. The fact that we BOTH chose to live here and it's expensive does not suddenly alter the class differences between us. If you make over 220k in DC, you are not middle class (and by the way, a LOT of the people I know making this much in DC also have little inheritances or family that is kicking in for their childcare expenses or sending 5k to their kid's college fund every year or whatever).

There are people living in DC on 40 or 50k, by the way. Not comfortably but they do it. And if their kids get into Harvard, they won't pay a dime and they shouldn't. They will have beaten the odds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

I'm actually UMC from an income perspective, but we drive older cars, don't take fancy vacations, and shop at Old Navy and Kohls.

also, for the most part, you can't keep your salary if you move to IA. It doesn't work that way. For the most part, salary is based on col, that's why there is a thing called COLA. So, if you make $200K here at whatever job you do, chances are your salary would be cut by a lot if you move to IA.

I used to live the Bay Area and my salary was high. When I moved to the DC area, the salary for the exact same position was much lower, and that is because the Bay Area col is still much higher than the DC area.

$200K in the Bay Area is also middle class. That's like middle income for many in the tech industry.

The median household income in Darien, CT is $230,000. Does that mean I am middle class if I live in Darien (one of the wealthiest towns in North America) and make $230k?

Yes. In Darien, you would have a hard time buying a sfh with that salary, saving for college, paying for daycare, etc..

Really, folks. Why is this so hard to understand.

In Selinsgrove, Pa, the median HHI is $56k. Someone with an HHI of $56k would be middle class then, if we’re on the same page?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

220k will get you a 900k house in Silver Spring, IB for perfectly good schools, close enough to the metro to commute that way but also not an insane driving commute, meals out a few times a week, a few nice vacations a year, two cars, and once you've saved up for that first down payment and gotten through the childcare years, you'll be able to max out your retirement and put a ton away towards college (unless you choose to have more than 2 kids, but that is on you friend).

The issue is that those of you in this income bracket don't want to live in a 1950s split level in Silver Spring because you think it's beneath you. You think you are middle class because you are living in a house built for a middle class person in 1955. But this is what happens in high COL areas. It doesn't magically make you middle class. You are living in a house worth close to a million dollars. Middle class peopel can't afford that.

OK, but even in Silver Spring, median income is much higher than somewhere like WV. Like I said, it depends on where you live.

Your argument is that the high cost of living magically makes someone making over 200k middle class, but if that income provides you with plenty of very nice options in the region without an obscenely long commute, then no, it doesn't. You're UMC. But none of this matters because (1) your kid isn't getting into Harvard anyway, and (2) if they do, you could absolutely afford to pay the sticker price, it would just take some sacrifice on your part. Whereas an actual middle class family, making under 150k/yr, simply could not afford it no matter how much they sacrifice because they can't afford any kind of home PLUS 70k/yr in tuition. Thus they get money and you don't. Get over it, and maybe focus your attention on making public colleges and universities very high quality and affordable to anyone. Harvard gets to decide how they handle their endowment themselves. They disagree with you.

? my kid is going to a state university, but you are side stepping the point because you can't argue with the point: it's ridiculous that these colleges expect a family that is making $280K to pay the same amount as a family making $800K.

Harvard gets federal money for research. Why on earth should they get all that money if their endowment is so large that they could let in every freshmen come in for free for 10 years or more. Those schools are greedy, and the rich are keeping it that way for a reason. It makes such schools unreachable for the majority simply due to finances.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Nope. Actual middle class person living DC here. Family of 3, lives in DC proper, no family money and no, we did not buy a home for cheap back when you could buy a home for cheap in DC. HHI of 130k. Like middle class people everywhere, we make a lot of compromises to live within our means. In DC this means a condo instead of a house, one old car, minimal travel, we almost never eat out, we have tight budgets for clothes and entertainment, etc. That's what it means to be middle class, especially living in a high COL area. We could live much more comfortable in a lower COL area, and we'd still be middle class. Like if we moved to Des Moines tomorrow and keep our salaries, we wouldn't magically be UMC. We'd be middle class people living in a low COL area and it would allow us to afford nice-to-haves like a bigger home, a second car, more money in retirement and college funds, some extra spending money, etc.

This is a big country. We choose to live here. So do you. The fact that we BOTH chose to live here and it's expensive does not suddenly alter the class differences between us. If you make over 220k in DC, you are not middle class (and by the way, a LOT of the people I know making this much in DC also have little inheritances or family that is kicking in for their childcare expenses or sending 5k to their kid's college fund every year or whatever).

There are people living in DC on 40 or 50k, by the way. Not comfortably but they do it. And if their kids get into Harvard, they won't pay a dime and they shouldn't. They will have beaten the odds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

I'm actually UMC from an income perspective, but we drive older cars, don't take fancy vacations, and shop at Old Navy and Kohls.

also, for the most part, you can't keep your salary if you move to IA. It doesn't work that way. For the most part, salary is based on col, that's why there is a thing called COLA. So, if you make $200K here at whatever job you do, chances are your salary would be cut by a lot if you move to IA.

I used to live the Bay Area and my salary was high. When I moved to the DC area, the salary for the exact same position was much lower, and that is because the Bay Area col is still much higher than the DC area.

$200K in the Bay Area is also middle class. That's like middle income for many in the tech industry.

The median household income in Darien, CT is $230,000. Does that mean I am middle class if I live in Darien (one of the wealthiest towns in North America) and make $230k?

Yes. In Darien, you would have a hard time buying a sfh with that salary, saving for college, paying for daycare, etc..

Really, folks. Why is this so hard to understand.

Well gee..maybe Darien is not a smart choice for families with that income. Maybe it is but if the housing is too expensive for that income...oh well.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:A lot of people who claim to be "donut hole" families have lived lives of increasing lifestyle creep as their incomes have climbed up 200k, and then want to complain that they don't get enough need-based aid. Well, did you really need a new car every 5 years? Expensive vacations? To redo the kitchen?

If you want to argue that a family making over 200k is middle class, then live like middle class people -- budget, accept you won't be able to afford everything you want to do, and sock money away for retirement and college.

We make well under 200k and this is what we do, and we have friends making over who go out to eat three nights a week, drive luxury cars, and take multiple vacations overseas every year, have weekly cleaners, etc. Those people are not entitled to need-based aid. It's not my fault, or the college's fault, that they chose to just live nicer, more luxurious, easier lives instead of saving their additional income for their child's education. We've scrimped and saved and still won't have enough. AND work in helping professions. I don't cry myself to sleep over the doctors and consultants and well-paid feds who will be disappointed in their FA award while crying into their Tesla upholstery and trying to console themselves on the flight to Aruba. Boo freaking hoo.

We make around 200k. Kids have never been abroad. Most vacations are to relatives, but we'll do long weekends at a cheap OBX hotel. Our cars get replaced at the 15 year mark and are not luxury. We still will not be able to pay 4x our annual income to put two kids through college. It's not a big deal because they can go to state school, but people pretending that people should attempt to live in poverty for the off chance that their kid gets into Harvard are insufferable.

+1 My kid is going to a great state school, but that's because we can't afford expensive private -- donut family. It's ridiculous for UMC to be expected to pay the same as wealthy families. $220K in the DC area is considered MC, btw. A HHI of $280K is not *that* different to $220K after taxes.

It's $20-25K extra per year. That's a huge difference. If you have been making that for at least 4 years before college you could have saved $80K in just that timeframe.

Why does everyone feel entitled to expensive private college? Just like most things in life, you go with what you can afford. There are literally still the majority of colleges that are/can be affordable for your family. Making $280K/year puts you in the Top 7-8% of all people in the USA. Let that sink in. You have so many more privileges than 92% of the people in our country.

I would ask, then, why do low income people think they are entitled to expensive private college? People who aren't even paying a penny--not just UMC types who wish it was 30% cheaper.

Well, do you think that expensive private college experiences should be able to just be bought? That wouldn’t make the degrees supposedly earned from them worth much, would it?

Isn't that exactly what is happening? If you don't make less than $100k or whatever it is, you are required to pay $320k to get the degree. So only people who can afford that will buy the degree. In the case of Harvard etc, there is a long waiting list. But the more expensive these schools become, with $400k around the corner, the fewer people there will be who can or want to pay full price. Eventually, the pool of full pay families will shrink (ok perhaps never at Harvard but down the list) and you will have a very mediocre student body where you practically let in any rich kid whose family is essentially willing to pay twice the real price--first to cover their own costs and then to cover the costs of a financial aid recipient. This is what is happening at schools like Trinity College. I can assure you, the quality level of full pay admitted students ain't that great at Trinity now.

The best way out of this mess is merit aid. Give a discount to excellent students even if their parents make more than $150k. The lower ranked schools already understand this. They have no choice to stay competitive. But more and more schools need to start doing this, and the schools that do will have the strongest student profiles, because they are making themselves available to what is really the strongest cohort of students out there: the children of the hard workinig and highly educated upper middle class. The top 20 schools will be fine--they have billions and 200 years of reputation. But below that, there will be degradation and the merit aid schools will continue to surpass them. A tipping point happens when the merit aid school has higher average SATs then the need-only peer, at which point everyone gets the memo that the merit aid school is actually now better than the need-only school, at which point kids who don't even need merit aid prefer to attend the merit aid school, just because it is more selective and has a higher quality student body.

Why would Harvard give merit aid? Everyone is top notch? The lower ranked schools do it to attract more top students. The t25 do not need to do that, as is evidenced with their single digit acceptance rates[/quote

Harvard doesn’t have to do anything. They have unlimited resources. I can still be concerned that it and peer institutions aren’t serving the public interest by limiting access to their school to the low end of the income spectrum and the very high end of the income spectrum.

Second tier schools that mimic Harvard’s financial aid policies like Trinity are going to have problems though as the pool of highly intelligent full pay students disappears on them as the price tag goes up and up and up.

Ultimately as college becomes just totally exorbitant if you don’t qualify for need based aid the best and the brightest will chase and receive merit aid and attend those institutions.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Nope. Actual middle class person living DC here. Family of 3, lives in DC proper, no family money and no, we did not buy a home for cheap back when you could buy a home for cheap in DC. HHI of 130k. Like middle class people everywhere, we make a lot of compromises to live within our means. In DC this means a condo instead of a house, one old car, minimal travel, we almost never eat out, we have tight budgets for clothes and entertainment, etc. That's what it means to be middle class, especially living in a high COL area. We could live much more comfortable in a lower COL area, and we'd still be middle class. Like if we moved to Des Moines tomorrow and keep our salaries, we wouldn't magically be UMC. We'd be middle class people living in a low COL area and it would allow us to afford nice-to-haves like a bigger home, a second car, more money in retirement and college funds, some extra spending money, etc.

This is a big country. We choose to live here. So do you. The fact that we BOTH chose to live here and it's expensive does not suddenly alter the class differences between us. If you make over 220k in DC, you are not middle class (and by the way, a LOT of the people I know making this much in DC also have little inheritances or family that is kicking in for their childcare expenses or sending 5k to their kid's college fund every year or whatever).

There are people living in DC on 40 or 50k, by the way. Not comfortably but they do it. And if their kids get into Harvard, they won't pay a dime and they shouldn't. They will have beaten the odds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

I'm actually UMC from an income perspective, but we drive older cars, don't take fancy vacations, and shop at Old Navy and Kohls.

also, for the most part, you can't keep your salary if you move to IA. It doesn't work that way. For the most part, salary is based on col, that's why there is a thing called COLA. So, if you make $200K here at whatever job you do, chances are your salary would be cut by a lot if you move to IA.

I used to live the Bay Area and my salary was high. When I moved to the DC area, the salary for the exact same position was much lower, and that is because the Bay Area col is still much higher than the DC area.

$200K in the Bay Area is also middle class. That's like middle income for many in the tech industry.

The median household income in Darien, CT is $230,000. Does that mean I am middle class if I live in Darien (one of the wealthiest towns in North America) and make $230k?

Yes. In Darien, you would have a hard time buying a sfh with that salary, saving for college, paying for daycare, etc..

Really, folks. Why is this so hard to understand.

Well gee..maybe Darien is not a smart choice for families with that income. Maybe it is but if the housing is too expensive for that income...oh well.

sure, but it doesn't change the fact that $200K in Darien is middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Nope. Actual middle class person living DC here. Family of 3, lives in DC proper, no family money and no, we did not buy a home for cheap back when you could buy a home for cheap in DC. HHI of 130k. Like middle class people everywhere, we make a lot of compromises to live within our means. In DC this means a condo instead of a house, one old car, minimal travel, we almost never eat out, we have tight budgets for clothes and entertainment, etc. That's what it means to be middle class, especially living in a high COL area. We could live much more comfortable in a lower COL area, and we'd still be middle class. Like if we moved to Des Moines tomorrow and keep our salaries, we wouldn't magically be UMC. We'd be middle class people living in a low COL area and it would allow us to afford nice-to-haves like a bigger home, a second car, more money in retirement and college funds, some extra spending money, etc.

This is a big country. We choose to live here. So do you. The fact that we BOTH chose to live here and it's expensive does not suddenly alter the class differences between us. If you make over 220k in DC, you are not middle class (and by the way, a LOT of the people I know making this much in DC also have little inheritances or family that is kicking in for their childcare expenses or sending 5k to their kid's college fund every year or whatever).

There are people living in DC on 40 or 50k, by the way. Not comfortably but they do it. And if their kids get into Harvard, they won't pay a dime and they shouldn't. They will have beaten the odds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

I'm actually UMC from an income perspective, but we drive older cars, don't take fancy vacations, and shop at Old Navy and Kohls.

also, for the most part, you can't keep your salary if you move to IA. It doesn't work that way. For the most part, salary is based on col, that's why there is a thing called COLA. So, if you make $200K here at whatever job you do, chances are your salary would be cut by a lot if you move to IA.

I used to live the Bay Area and my salary was high. When I moved to the DC area, the salary for the exact same position was much lower, and that is because the Bay Area col is still much higher than the DC area.

$200K in the Bay Area is also middle class. That's like middle income for many in the tech industry.

The median household income in Darien, CT is $230,000. Does that mean I am middle class if I live in Darien (one of the wealthiest towns in North America) and make $230k?

Yes. In Darien, you would have a hard time buying a sfh with that salary, saving for college, paying for daycare, etc..

Really, folks. Why is this so hard to understand.

In Selinsgrove, Pa, the median HHI is $56k. Someone with an HHI of $56k would be middle class then, if we’re on the same page?

yes, in that area it would be. Someone in a low col making $56K would live a decent life. Someone making $56K in the DC area would find it harder to have the same life.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:A lot of people who claim to be "donut hole" families have lived lives of increasing lifestyle creep as their incomes have climbed up 200k, and then want to complain that they don't get enough need-based aid. Well, did you really need a new car every 5 years? Expensive vacations? To redo the kitchen?

If you want to argue that a family making over 200k is middle class, then live like middle class people -- budget, accept you won't be able to afford everything you want to do, and sock money away for retirement and college.

We make well under 200k and this is what we do, and we have friends making over who go out to eat three nights a week, drive luxury cars, and take multiple vacations overseas every year, have weekly cleaners, etc. Those people are not entitled to need-based aid. It's not my fault, or the college's fault, that they chose to just live nicer, more luxurious, easier lives instead of saving their additional income for their child's education. We've scrimped and saved and still won't have enough. AND work in helping professions. I don't cry myself to sleep over the doctors and consultants and well-paid feds who will be disappointed in their FA award while crying into their Tesla upholstery and trying to console themselves on the flight to Aruba. Boo freaking hoo.

We make around 200k. Kids have never been abroad. Most vacations are to relatives, but we'll do long weekends at a cheap OBX hotel. Our cars get replaced at the 15 year mark and are not luxury. We still will not be able to pay 4x our annual income to put two kids through college. It's not a big deal because they can go to state school, but people pretending that people should attempt to live in poverty for the off chance that their kid gets into Harvard are insufferable.

+1 My kid is going to a great state school, but that's because we can't afford expensive private -- donut family. It's ridiculous for UMC to be expected to pay the same as wealthy families. $220K in the DC area is considered MC, btw. A HHI of $280K is not *that* different to $220K after taxes.

It's $20-25K extra per year. That's a huge difference. If you have been making that for at least 4 years before college you could have saved $80K in just that timeframe.

Why does everyone feel entitled to expensive private college? Just like most things in life, you go with what you can afford. There are literally still the majority of colleges that are/can be affordable for your family. Making $280K/year puts you in the Top 7-8% of all people in the USA. Let that sink in. You have so many more privileges than 92% of the people in our country.

Sure, but those expensive colleges are $80k per year, and we have multiple kids.

4 years to save $80K, so you'd have to work 16 years to cover $320K full four years of college, maybe a bit less if the markets were favorable during that time, and 32 years to cover two kids at $320K each, assuming you are making the same for 32 years and zero inflation. Let that sink in.

Maybe you only read the parts you wanted to read in my post, but I did say that my kid is going to a great state school with some merit aid.

Also, you have zero knowledge of my background. I didn't grow up UMC. My parents don't even speak English.

And your background is irrelevant. You make $280k/ year. That is no poor. And once again, how many kids you chose to have is your issue. Most families with multiple kids do not send them to elite universities because they can’t afford it. Desire to send them there only have 1 kid (or two).

And that 20k saved per year is jus t difference from w
220 time 280. Someone at 220 can make choices to save as well

My background is irrelevant yes, but math is math. Based on what you stated, such a person would have to work about 30 years to afford that kind of expense. Yes, it's a choice, but you make it sound like it's easy for donut whole families to pay the same amount as families making $800K. Yes, such a family has other choices, but that's not the point. The point is that expensive colleges expect $280K family to afford the same amount as a $800K family. That is ridiculous.

And you make it sound like your kids do not have a way to get a good education. They do—just not t25. But they can go to a t100 school or state school for minimal debt and get a great education.
Fact is most with stats won’t get into t25 anyhow. Do find a great school you can afford

The point is they should have to settle for what is left over after the rich folks pay, and the poor households get paid to attend. They should have the same options available but don't. They're being screened out and told to suck it up and go somewhere else. That's not ok.