Are top private colleges mainly for poor people now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

The median household income in Prince George’s County is $86k. Tell us the municipalities in which it’s $200k. Vienna? McLean? What about those screams “middle class”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Well, it kind of does. Take your DC area paycheck to Erie, PA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Well, it kind of does. Take your DC area paycheck to Erie, PA

Don’t live somewhere you don’t feel you can afford. A teacher can live like a king in most places but chooses to live and teach in DC.

BTW the person from Erie has barely any home equity, unlike you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Nope. Actual middle class person living DC here. Family of 3, lives in DC proper, no family money and no, we did not buy a home for cheap back when you could buy a home for cheap in DC. HHI of 130k. Like middle class people everywhere, we make a lot of compromises to live within our means. In DC this means a condo instead of a house, one old car, minimal travel, we almost never eat out, we have tight budgets for clothes and entertainment, etc. That's what it means to be middle class, especially living in a high COL area. We could live much more comfortable in a lower COL area, and we'd still be middle class. Like if we moved to Des Moines tomorrow and keep our salaries, we wouldn't magically be UMC. We'd be middle class people living in a low COL area and it would allow us to afford nice-to-haves like a bigger home, a second car, more money in retirement and college funds, some extra spending money, etc.

This is a big country. We choose to live here. So do you. The fact that we BOTH chose to live here and it's expensive does not suddenly alter the class differences between us. If you make over 220k in DC, you are not middle class (and by the way, a LOT of the people I know making this much in DC also have little inheritances or family that is kicking in for their childcare expenses or sending 5k to their kid's college fund every year or whatever).

There are people living in DC on 40 or 50k, by the way. Not comfortably but they do it. And if their kids get into Harvard, they won't pay a dime and they shouldn't. They will have beaten the odds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

I'm actually UMC from an income perspective, but we drive older cars, don't take fancy vacations, and shop at Old Navy and Kohls.

also, for the most part, you can't keep your salary if you move to IA. It doesn't work that way. For the most part, salary is based on col, that's why there is a thing called COLA. So, if you make $200K here at whatever job you do, chances are your salary would be cut by a lot if you move to IA.

I used to live the Bay Area and my salary was high. When I moved to the DC area, the salary for the exact same position was much lower, and that is because the Bay Area col is still much higher than the DC area.

$200K in the Bay Area is also middle class. That's like middle income for many in the tech industry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

220k will get you a 900k house in Silver Spring, IB for perfectly good schools, close enough to the metro to commute that way but also not an insane driving commute, meals out a few times a week, a few nice vacations a year, two cars, and once you've saved up for that first down payment and gotten through the childcare years, you'll be able to max out your retirement and put a ton away towards college (unless you choose to have more than 2 kids, but that is on you friend).

The issue is that those of you in this income bracket don't want to live in a 1950s split level in Silver Spring because you think it's beneath you. You think you are middle class because you are living in a house built for a middle class person in 1955. But this is what happens in high COL areas. It doesn't magically make you middle class. You are living in a house worth close to a million dollars. Middle class peopel can't afford that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

The median household income in Prince George’s County is $86k. Tell us the municipalities in which it’s $200k. Vienna? McLean? What about those screams “middle class”?

take it up with cnbc

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

I didn't write that article. You can ask the reporter who did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people who claim to be "donut hole" families have lived lives of increasing lifestyle creep as their incomes have climbed up 200k, and then want to complain that they don't get enough need-based aid. Well, did you really need a new car every 5 years? Expensive vacations? To redo the kitchen?

If you want to argue that a family making over 200k is middle class, then live like middle class people -- budget, accept you won't be able to afford everything you want to do, and sock money away for retirement and college.

We make well under 200k and this is what we do, and we have friends making over who go out to eat three nights a week, drive luxury cars, and take multiple vacations overseas every year, have weekly cleaners, etc. Those people are not entitled to need-based aid. It's not my fault, or the college's fault, that they chose to just live nicer, more luxurious, easier lives instead of saving their additional income for their child's education. We've scrimped and saved and still won't have enough. AND work in helping professions. I don't cry myself to sleep over the doctors and consultants and well-paid feds who will be disappointed in their FA award while crying into their Tesla upholstery and trying to console themselves on the flight to Aruba. Boo freaking hoo.

We make around 200k. Kids have never been abroad. Most vacations are to relatives, but we'll do long weekends at a cheap OBX hotel. Our cars get replaced at the 15 year mark and are not luxury. We still will not be able to pay 4x our annual income to put two kids through college. It's not a big deal because they can go to state school, but people pretending that people should attempt to live in poverty for the off chance that their kid gets into Harvard are insufferable.

+1 My kid is going to a great state school, but that's because we can't afford expensive private -- donut family. It's ridiculous for UMC to be expected to pay the same as wealthy families. $220K in the DC area is considered MC, btw. A HHI of $280K is not *that* different to $220K after taxes.

It's $20-25K extra per year. That's a huge difference. If you have been making that for at least 4 years before college you could have saved $80K in just that timeframe.

Why does everyone feel entitled to expensive private college? Just like most things in life, you go with what you can afford. There are literally still the majority of colleges that are/can be affordable for your family. Making $280K/year puts you in the Top 7-8% of all people in the USA. Let that sink in. You have so many more privileges than 92% of the people in our country.

Sure, but those expensive colleges are $80k per year, and we have multiple kids.

4 years to save $80K, so you'd have to work 16 years to cover $320K full four years of college, maybe a bit less if the markets were favorable during that time, and 32 years to cover two kids at $320K each, assuming you are making the same for 32 years and zero inflation. Let that sink in.

Maybe you only read the parts you wanted to read in my post, but I did say that my kid is going to a great state school with some merit aid.

Also, you have zero knowledge of my background. I didn't grow up UMC. My parents don't even speak English.

And your background is irrelevant. You make $280k/ year. That is no poor. And once again, how many kids you chose to have is your issue. Most families with multiple kids do not send them to elite universities because they can’t afford it. Desire to send them there only have 1 kid (or two).

And that 20k saved per year is jus t difference from w
220 time 280. Someone at 220 can make choices to save as well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

220k will get you a 900k house in Silver Spring, IB for perfectly good schools, close enough to the metro to commute that way but also not an insane driving commute, meals out a few times a week, a few nice vacations a year, two cars, and once you've saved up for that first down payment and gotten through the childcare years, you'll be able to max out your retirement and put a ton away towards college (unless you choose to have more than 2 kids, but that is on you friend).

The issue is that those of you in this income bracket don't want to live in a 1950s split level in Silver Spring because you think it's beneath you. You think you are middle class because you are living in a house built for a middle class person in 1955. But this is what happens in high COL areas. It doesn't magically make you middle class. You are living in a house worth close to a million dollars. Middle class peopel can't afford that.

OK, but even in Silver Spring, median income is much higher than somewhere like WV. Like I said, it depends on where you live.

[Anonymous]

It’s not clear what OP wants. For it to be free for everyone? For it to be like private k-12 where there are no truly poor students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people who claim to be "donut hole" families have lived lives of increasing lifestyle creep as their incomes have climbed up 200k, and then want to complain that they don't get enough need-based aid. Well, did you really need a new car every 5 years? Expensive vacations? To redo the kitchen?

If you want to argue that a family making over 200k is middle class, then live like middle class people -- budget, accept you won't be able to afford everything you want to do, and sock money away for retirement and college.

We make well under 200k and this is what we do, and we have friends making over who go out to eat three nights a week, drive luxury cars, and take multiple vacations overseas every year, have weekly cleaners, etc. Those people are not entitled to need-based aid. It's not my fault, or the college's fault, that they chose to just live nicer, more luxurious, easier lives instead of saving their additional income for their child's education. We've scrimped and saved and still won't have enough. AND work in helping professions. I don't cry myself to sleep over the doctors and consultants and well-paid feds who will be disappointed in their FA award while crying into their Tesla upholstery and trying to console themselves on the flight to Aruba. Boo freaking hoo.

That's fine but look what you've done. You've sacrificed your whole life only to be ripped off by a system where more than half the kids are practically going for free, while maybe a quarter of the parents are rich people for whom $320k is a fraction of an annual bonus. You are kind of the sucker here.

Nope, we will qualify for considerable financial aid. If my kid gets into one of these tippy top schools, we will pay nowhere near the sticker price because they do in fact have need blind admissions and there is no accounting of our finances that wouldn't find plenty of "need" in that situation.

However we have saved money so that if our kid isn't both incredibly accomplished AND win the admissions lottery (those odds are so slim as to be non-existent), we will be able to help pay for another school, whether that's an in-state school or a small private that offers aid or what. We will need help to pay for school and we will look to minimize or avoid loans as much as possible. This is almost certainly what paying for college will look like for us, and we will be glad we have saved as much as we can to pay for it. If you have a family making upwards of 200k per year, the idea that you are somehow too good to do the same, or that your kid deserves one of those lottery spots at Harvard or whatever, is just entitlement. That's it.

Now if you want to advocate for affordable, or even free, public universities so that it is possible for anyone who is qualified to get a college education, I'd be right there with you. If you want to talk about the funding of PUBLIC higher education and how we actually make this affordable and accessible for kids of all backgrounds, sounds great.

But this thread is just about UMC people who feel entitled to send their kids to "T25" schools whining about how much it costs. You're not mad about the cost of college generally, you're mad about access to a certain brand of "elite" education that you think will mark your kid as worthy and better than other people, and you're mad that you see rich kids who didn't really earn it, and poor kids who don't have to pay for it, getting this thing you've decided is your kid's birthright. Get over yourself.

OP here. As I said, I'm full pay and nowhere near qualifying for financial aid under any conceivable scenario. My kid is going to a private college full pay and I'm delighted. But as someone who came from an upper middle class background, I don't like what I see happening at my alma mater and peer schools. I don't think it's right, and I know for a fact that a lot of people at elite colleges are worried about this as well, especially as the price tag approaches the dreaded $100k/yr. I don't think it's healthy when America's bests colleges consist only of children from very modest backgrounds and children from very immodest backgrounds.

Then don't send your kids there. No one is making you. Again, you feel entitled to these schools. Not just to attend them but to control the environments and the peer groups there. These schools have made a decision to prioritize other factors. They could do what you want -- they could get rid of need-blind admissions and instead accept a greater range of UMC kids. And to what end? What, other than giving those kids the idealized college experience and the stamp of approval from a "T25" on their transcripts, would that accomplish?

Your whole thing is "oh no, actual poor and middle class people are filling up these colleges that used to be mainly for UMC peopel and the very right people, like me." Oh no, indeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people who claim to be "donut hole" families have lived lives of increasing lifestyle creep as their incomes have climbed up 200k, and then want to complain that they don't get enough need-based aid. Well, did you really need a new car every 5 years? Expensive vacations? To redo the kitchen?

If you want to argue that a family making over 200k is middle class, then live like middle class people -- budget, accept you won't be able to afford everything you want to do, and sock money away for retirement and college.

We make well under 200k and this is what we do, and we have friends making over who go out to eat three nights a week, drive luxury cars, and take multiple vacations overseas every year, have weekly cleaners, etc. Those people are not entitled to need-based aid. It's not my fault, or the college's fault, that they chose to just live nicer, more luxurious, easier lives instead of saving their additional income for their child's education. We've scrimped and saved and still won't have enough. AND work in helping professions. I don't cry myself to sleep over the doctors and consultants and well-paid feds who will be disappointed in their FA award while crying into their Tesla upholstery and trying to console themselves on the flight to Aruba. Boo freaking hoo.

We make around 200k. Kids have never been abroad. Most vacations are to relatives, but we'll do long weekends at a cheap OBX hotel. Our cars get replaced at the 15 year mark and are not luxury. We still will not be able to pay 4x our annual income to put two kids through college. It's not a big deal because they can go to state school, but people pretending that people should attempt to live in poverty for the off chance that their kid gets into Harvard are insufferable.

+1 My kid is going to a great state school, but that's because we can't afford expensive private -- donut family. It's ridiculous for UMC to be expected to pay the same as wealthy families. $220K in the DC area is considered MC, btw. A HHI of $280K is not *that* different to $220K after taxes.

It's $20-25K extra per year. That's a huge difference. If you have been making that for at least 4 years before college you could have saved $80K in just that timeframe.

Why does everyone feel entitled to expensive private college? Just like most things in life, you go with what you can afford. There are literally still the majority of colleges that are/can be affordable for your family. Making $280K/year puts you in the Top 7-8% of all people in the USA. Let that sink in. You have so many more privileges than 92% of the people in our country.

I would ask, then, why do low income people think they are entitled to expensive private college? People who aren't even paying a penny--not just UMC types who wish it was 30% cheaper.

Well, do you think that expensive private college experiences should be able to just be bought? That wouldn’t make the degrees supposedly earned from them worth much, would it?

Isn't that exactly what is happening? If you don't make less than $100k or whatever it is, you are required to pay $320k to get the degree. So only people who can afford that will buy the degree. In the case of Harvard etc, there is a long waiting list. But the more expensive these schools become, with $400k around the corner, the fewer people there will be who can or want to pay full price. Eventually, the pool of full pay families will shrink (ok perhaps never at Harvard but down the list) and you will have a very mediocre student body where you practically let in any rich kid whose family is essentially willing to pay twice the real price--first to cover their own costs and then to cover the costs of a financial aid recipient. This is what is happening at schools like Trinity College. I can assure you, the quality level of full pay admitted students ain't that great at Trinity now.

The best way out of this mess is merit aid. Give a discount to excellent students even if their parents make more than $150k. The lower ranked schools already understand this. They have no choice to stay competitive. But more and more schools need to start doing this, and the schools that do will have the strongest student profiles, because they are making themselves available to what is really the strongest cohort of students out there: the children of the hard workinig and highly educated upper middle class. The top 20 schools will be fine--they have billions and 200 years of reputation. But below that, there will be degradation and the merit aid schools will continue to surpass them. A tipping point happens when the merit aid school has higher average SATs then the need-only peer, at which point everyone gets the memo that the merit aid school is actually now better than the need-only school, at which point kids who don't even need merit aid prefer to attend the merit aid school, just because it is more selective and has a higher quality student body.

Why would Harvard give merit aid? Everyone is top notch? The lower ranked schools do it to attract more top students. The t25 do not need to do that, as is evidenced with their single digit acceptance rates

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

220k will get you a 900k house in Silver Spring, IB for perfectly good schools, close enough to the metro to commute that way but also not an insane driving commute, meals out a few times a week, a few nice vacations a year, two cars, and once you've saved up for that first down payment and gotten through the childcare years, you'll be able to max out your retirement and put a ton away towards college (unless you choose to have more than 2 kids, but that is on you friend).

The issue is that those of you in this income bracket don't want to live in a 1950s split level in Silver Spring because you think it's beneath you. You think you are middle class because you are living in a house built for a middle class person in 1955. But this is what happens in high COL areas. It doesn't magically make you middle class. You are living in a house worth close to a million dollars. Middle class peopel can't afford that.

OK, but even in Silver Spring, median income is much higher than somewhere like WV. Like I said, it depends on where you live.

I can’t afford to live in Manhattan, Greenwich, Atherton, Lexington or Palo Alto, so I don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people who claim to be "donut hole" families have lived lives of increasing lifestyle creep as their incomes have climbed up 200k, and then want to complain that they don't get enough need-based aid. Well, did you really need a new car every 5 years? Expensive vacations? To redo the kitchen?

If you want to argue that a family making over 200k is middle class, then live like middle class people -- budget, accept you won't be able to afford everything you want to do, and sock money away for retirement and college.

We make well under 200k and this is what we do, and we have friends making over who go out to eat three nights a week, drive luxury cars, and take multiple vacations overseas every year, have weekly cleaners, etc. Those people are not entitled to need-based aid. It's not my fault, or the college's fault, that they chose to just live nicer, more luxurious, easier lives instead of saving their additional income for their child's education. We've scrimped and saved and still won't have enough. AND work in helping professions. I don't cry myself to sleep over the doctors and consultants and well-paid feds who will be disappointed in their FA award while crying into their Tesla upholstery and trying to console themselves on the flight to Aruba. Boo freaking hoo.

We make around 200k. Kids have never been abroad. Most vacations are to relatives, but we'll do long weekends at a cheap OBX hotel. Our cars get replaced at the 15 year mark and are not luxury. We still will not be able to pay 4x our annual income to put two kids through college. It's not a big deal because they can go to state school, but people pretending that people should attempt to live in poverty for the off chance that their kid gets into Harvard are insufferable.

+1 My kid is going to a great state school, but that's because we can't afford expensive private -- donut family. It's ridiculous for UMC to be expected to pay the same as wealthy families. $220K in the DC area is considered MC, btw. A HHI of $280K is not *that* different to $220K after taxes.

It's $20-25K extra per year. That's a huge difference. If you have been making that for at least 4 years before college you could have saved $80K in just that timeframe.

Why does everyone feel entitled to expensive private college? Just like most things in life, you go with what you can afford. There are literally still the majority of colleges that are/can be affordable for your family. Making $280K/year puts you in the Top 7-8% of all people in the USA. Let that sink in. You have so many more privileges than 92% of the people in our country.

Sure, but those expensive colleges are $80k per year, and we have multiple kids.

4 years to save $80K, so you'd have to work 16 years to cover $320K full four years of college, maybe a bit less if the markets were favorable during that time, and 32 years to cover two kids at $320K each, assuming you are making the same for 32 years and zero inflation. Let that sink in.

Maybe you only read the parts you wanted to read in my post, but I did say that my kid is going to a great state school with some merit aid.

Also, you have zero knowledge of my background. I didn't grow up UMC. My parents don't even speak English.

And your background is irrelevant. You make $280k/ year. That is no poor. And once again, how many kids you chose to have is your issue. Most families with multiple kids do not send them to elite universities because they can’t afford it. Desire to send them there only have 1 kid (or two).

And that 20k saved per year is jus t difference from w
220 time 280. Someone at 220 can make choices to save as well

My background is irrelevant yes, but math is math. Based on what you stated, such a person would have to work about 30 years to afford that kind of expense. Yes, it's a choice, but you make it sound like it's easy for donut whole families to pay the same amount as families making $800K. Yes, such a family has other choices, but that's not the point. The point is that expensive colleges expect $280K family to afford the same amount as a $800K family. That is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My spouse and I combined make just over $400k and live in Chevy Chase. My kid got into ND for class of 2027. But we are seriously thinking about sending her to UMD or Clemson, where she has money at both. We haven’t always made $400k, we have three kids and $330k is a lot for undergrad. Point is that you need to make a lot of money to not have to think twice about pricey privates.

You are the exact point of this thread. Even up to 400k of income, well beyond the threshold of financial aid, full pay at a private college is an iffy proposition. The upper middle class is being hollowed out at these schools, where the pricing architecture favors middle to low income and the very affluent.

But it’s always been an iffy proposition. Families have always decided (correctly) that a state school education was great. My own parents in the 90’s decided that they didn’t want to pay for an Ivy education since there were three of us and sent me to the state flagship honors program for basically free. Great decision. We will make a different decision for their grandchildren even though the relative cost is higher for us than it was for them. Making choices about whether to splurge on something that is not necessary will always be a personal choice.

But the point is, the math has changed over the decades. The cost of attendance has risen faster than inflation. Meanwhile, financial aid for low income students has become more generous thanks to swollen endowments. The top schools are increasingly becoming filled with kids who qualify for substantial aid (in fact a majority of students) and kids who qualify for no aid and their parents still send them there because they are very wealthy and money is not an object. This trend is only continuing. Perhaps soon all the top schools will look like Trinity College. A bunch of kids on financial aid and then like half the class filled with rich white prep school kids who like to party and don't really have much interest in books. This is where we are headed because pretty soon it will be 100k/yr and the number of families prepared to pay that kind of money will become lower and lower.

I cannot tell you what the market forces will do in the years to come but for now, this is simply not true.

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/college/

Take a look at this graphic. Most people at Columbia (over 60%) is from the top quintile. "only" 14% are from the 1%. So 45% of the university is from the top 20% who are not "rich".

From what I can tell the top quintile is 150k+. Again, we are comparing families in prime earning years against a pool of households that includes single people (young and old), young couples, etc. We might have a different understanding what poor or rich is. Bottom line is, half or more of the school is qualifying for lots of aid and half or more is able to shoulder $80k a year. Very bifurcated.

How did you look at the data and come up with “very bifurcated”? 60% of families have more than $150K annual income. 14% come from families with more than $580K (I think that’s 1%). So 45% of the student body have parents whose incline is between $150K and $580K. I think that was the group being referred to here as “donut hole” families. They still make up almost 1/2 of the students!

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Anonymous wrote:Often 2/3 of students at top ranked schools are getting need based aid that covers the vast majority of costs, on average.

200k is the typical cut off for need based aid (about the income level of a couple of school teachers at the peak of their careers aka “the wealthy”)

It just seems these schools must be populated primarily with lower income kids and then 1/3 rich kids.

I guess middle class kids end up at state school.

Poverty line is $35k per year. Median American income is $69k. $200 k annual warning is top 10% nationally.

$220K in DC area is considered MC. It depends on where you live.

Choosing to live in an expensive zip code doesn’t change what socioeconomic class you’re in.

Once again, people don't necessarily "choose" to live in a hcol; they go where the jobs are. Notice how during the pandemic when people could wfh, a lot of people moved out of higher col areas. But, now many are returning because companies are requiring RTO.

220k will get you a 900k house in Silver Spring, IB for perfectly good schools, close enough to the metro to commute that way but also not an insane driving commute, meals out a few times a week, a few nice vacations a year, two cars, and once you've saved up for that first down payment and gotten through the childcare years, you'll be able to max out your retirement and put a ton away towards college (unless you choose to have more than 2 kids, but that is on you friend).

The issue is that those of you in this income bracket don't want to live in a 1950s split level in Silver Spring because you think it's beneath you. You think you are middle class because you are living in a house built for a middle class person in 1955. But this is what happens in high COL areas. It doesn't magically make you middle class. You are living in a house worth close to a million dollars. Middle class peopel can't afford that.

OK, but even in Silver Spring, median income is much higher than somewhere like WV. Like I said, it depends on where you live.

I can’t afford to live in Manhattan, Greenwich, Atherton, Lexington or Palo Alto, so I don’t.

Indeed, and neither can a person who lives in Silver Spring. And btw, the median income in Palo Alto is close to $200k but the median property value is $2mil+.

Again, median income depends on where you live.