Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have huge issues with Israel killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians as a response to the horrible act on 10/7. Deal with it, I really do not care what you think of me.

Where was this outrage over the deaths of civilians in Syria, in Yemen, in South Sudan? Didn't fit your personal truth? Oh yeah, and it didn't involve the Jews. But carry on internet person.

Beacause MY US tax dollars are funding the murder of innocent children by the thousand. That’s why. stop with the antisemite victim card.

Here's what my best friend told me today:

1) Biden, despite losing support from young progressives, CANNOT denounce Israel because Israel is our only strategic partner in the Mideast. He is completely between a rock and a hard place, but this is one move Biden is completely constrained from doing.

2) Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, slaughtering the Palestinians in a gigantic land grab.

I don't know what to think. I'm a huge supporter of Israel, yet I don't want my tax dollars spent on arms that Israel will use to kill innocent Palestinian children who had nothing to do with Oct. 7.

It seems to me that unless my best friend is correct that this is genocide and a huge land grab on Israel's part, there is no end game here. Israel has no idea where it's going other than attacking Palestinians with no end in sight as revenge for the atrocities of Oct. 7.

Is my friend right?

I haven't read the posts between this one and now, yet... But let me react to this.

Your friend is imaginary. This post is a note-perfect example of someone trying to push a very specific message.

Get some better writers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a difference between Hamas and Palestinians? If the majority is against Hamas, they can easily remove them from leadership positions. They can easily take them out; I have yet to hear an escaped Palestinian say how they hate Hamas.

So you believe collective punishment is warranted then. That"s a horrifying position.

serious question - is this your first time contemplating the horrors of war? did you grow up without access to history books, novels, movies, other people, or any other sources or information

Serious question - are you a troll or just an idiot?

Dp: she's neither. She's one of the most rational people in this thread. You keep waving your hands and talking about collective harm and how horrifying it is, but you're doing so from such a remove. It's like you took a class in geopolitical conflict management, from a bunch of Quakers who are very sad about this and think mindful chiding will help.

It won't.

You being horrified will also not help. Me being horrified that your horror is so selective also does not help... But at least I'm not trying to gain some moral highground with someone else's tragedy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We, as in allies, collectively punished Germans and even Austrians. Did we worry about kids when Allies bombed the hell out of Germany?
Did we worry when allies bombed major cities in countries that fought against Nazis as they had German military presence in those cities?
Did we worry when our drones killed innocent bystanders?
Did we worry when some million (estimated only) Vietnamese were killed in Vietnam? Many women and children.
Did we worry when we dropped the nuclear bomb?
Did we worry about those innocents killed in these military operations?

Did we learn anything about being bloodthirsty, vindictive a$$-holes?

Is that what you think our military was? Is? Wow. You have some massive, massive hothouse environment, lady. And yes, I think you have never read a novel or seen a movie about the horrors of war, or even contemplated for a second what it would be like to have no choice but to be in one, and then to lose everyone you loved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a difference between Hamas and Palestinians? If the majority is against Hamas, they can easily remove them from leadership positions. They can easily take them out; I have yet to hear an escaped Palestinian say how they hate Hamas.

So you believe collective punishment is warranted then. That"s a horrifying position.

serious question - is this your first time contemplating the horrors of war? did you grow up without access to history books, novels, movies, other people, or any other sources or information

Does "Never Again" only apply to Jewish people? I grew up thinking it meant that as a global community, we would never allow a Shoah to happen to any group. But it seems like shrugging off innocent civilians deaths in this conflict is really easy for you. I don't understand why.

DP.

I don’t understand why there’s so much more emphasis on civilian deaths in this conflict than in prior conflicts.

Assume roughly 15k civilian deaths in Gaza.

Compare to other/prior conflicts both as an absolute number and as a combatant/civilian ratio.

It’s interesting.

I guess the expectation is that because it's 2023, and because we know the U.S. armaments in this conflict are state-of-the-art, the precision of the war would be much more efficient than, say, the Civil War or WWI or WWII, etc. So it's difficult to understand how there's a fair comparison there.

Military tech doesn't generally focus on killing fewer people in more time. Nor have they any incentive to be efficient. At best, it's designed to never be used at all. At worst, it's designed to be brutal. I really think you should read some books... watch some movies... Learn some history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a difference between Hamas and Palestinians? If the majority is against Hamas, they can easily remove them from leadership positions. They can easily take them out; I have yet to hear an escaped Palestinian say how they hate Hamas.

So you believe collective punishment is warranted then. That"s a horrifying position.

serious question - is this your first time contemplating the horrors of war? did you grow up without access to history books, novels, movies, other people, or any other sources or information

Serious question - are you a troll or just an idiot?

Dp: she's neither. She's one of the most rational people in this thread. You keep waving your hands and talking about collective harm and how horrifying it is, but you're doing so from such a remove. It's like you took a class in geopolitical conflict management, from a bunch of Quakers who are very sad about this and think mindful chiding will help.

It won't.

You being horrified will also not help. Me being horrified that your horror is so selective also does not help... But at least I'm not trying to gain some moral highground with someone else's tragedy.

Snoozefest. It's boring having to endure this war mongering enlightenment talk therapy with yourself, while others (like the person you're replying to) are criticized for their humanity. What are your credentials? Why does your opinion even matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:8,000 to 9,000 Hamas terrorists eliminated per IDF, with many others wounded. Tunnels closing in if accurate.

About a third of the way there.

If they could get Sinwar, this would end immediately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8,000 to 9,000 Hamas terrorists eliminated per IDF, with many others wounded. Tunnels closing in if accurate.

About a third of the way there.

If they could get Sinwar, this would end immediately.

I wish that was true, but it just rings hollow. The hunt for Hamas terrorists logically shouldn't end anyway, even with Sinwar and Haniyeh off the table. There wil be bad people to bring to justice in Gaza after those guys are taken down. But besides, Netanyahu and his cronies have already torn the cover off the laughably disingenuous "We tried over and over again to give you a state!" malarkey.

So no, it won't end with Sinowar facing justice. And in reality, it shouldn't unless all Hamas terrorists have been rounded up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a difference between Hamas and Palestinians? If the majority is against Hamas, they can easily remove them from leadership positions. They can easily take them out; I have yet to hear an escaped Palestinian say how they hate Hamas.

So you believe collective punishment is warranted then. That"s a horrifying position.

serious question - is this your first time contemplating the horrors of war? did you grow up without access to history books, novels, movies, other people, or any other sources or information

Does "Never Again" only apply to Jewish people? I grew up thinking it meant that as a global community, we would never allow a Shoah to happen to any group. But it seems like shrugging off innocent civilians deaths in this conflict is really easy for you. I don't understand why.

DP.

I don’t understand why there’s so much more emphasis on civilian deaths in this conflict than in prior conflicts.

Assume roughly 15k civilian deaths in Gaza.

Compare to other/prior conflicts both as an absolute number and as a combatant/civilian ratio.

It’s interesting.

I guess the expectation is that because it's 2023, and because we know the U.S. armaments in this conflict are state-of-the-art, the precision of the war would be much more efficient than, say, the Civil War or WWI or WWII, etc. So it's difficult to understand how there's a fair comparison there.

A good guess, but the fact is that in 2022, the UN estimated that civilians constituted 90% of casualties in recent conflicts.

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm

So there are really two possibilities here:

1. People’s expectations of the grim realities of conflict have suddenly and inexplicably become skewed.

2. People are reacting differently because this conflict involves Israel.

I’d say that #2 is the more plausible explanation.

Ok. So if you are ok with civilians dying why are the civilian deaths on 10:7 so horrible to you? From a Palestinian perspective they are all a part of a war that stretches back to the 1940s. Hostages included.

Personally, I think it’s horrific. And I thin kIsraeli’s actions are equally horrific. Bit of you are saying civilian deaths in a war are a-ok, then please explain why 10/7 is so very different. And please keep in mind that for every Israeli death since 1948, there has been at least 10x Palestinian deaths.

Because 10/7 was an attack with no military objective, intended and designed with the sole goal of killing, torturing and raping civilians.

That’s far different and far more horrific than military actions with military objectives that result in civilian casualties.

That’s been the global consensus from a moral and legal perspective for decades.

Note that I deplore all civilian casualties, so I’m not “ok” with any. But I do recognize the reality of war.

Now, why don’t you answer my question?

Why are civilian casualties in the current conflict receiving so much more attention than other conflicts, despite both the raw and proportional numbers being relatively low?

Is it sudden onset naïveté? Or something else?

I can't help but wonder if arguments like this are posted just to make certain points of view seem prevalent. I wonder that because rationally, you make no sense.

Let's say we change the rules of engagement to make random acts of brutal terror against a civilian population a totally normal occurance. Part of the way war works. What do you think will happen? How will that go?

How would send your kids to school each day, never knowing if a bomb or a busload of men with machetes might be there to greet them? We Americans *think* we live in fear. We don't know what fear is.

I don't know how to explain this to you. I'm not sure why I keep trying. If you negotiate with terrorists, you are saying "this is how war works. This is something we do now." I understand that carpet bombing civilian neighborhoods is aborhorrent. I know it has a higher body count. But the act of terror happened first. That's what broke the board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a difference between Hamas and Palestinians? If the majority is against Hamas, they can easily remove them from leadership positions. They can easily take them out; I have yet to hear an escaped Palestinian say how they hate Hamas.

So you believe collective punishment is warranted then. That"s a horrifying position.

serious question - is this your first time contemplating the horrors of war? did you grow up without access to history books, novels, movies, other people, or any other sources or information

Does "Never Again" only apply to Jewish people? I grew up thinking it meant that as a global community, we would never allow a Shoah to happen to any group. But it seems like shrugging off innocent civilians deaths in this conflict is really easy for you. I don't understand why.

DP.

I don’t understand why there’s so much more emphasis on civilian deaths in this conflict than in prior conflicts.

Assume roughly 15k civilian deaths in Gaza.

Compare to other/prior conflicts both as an absolute number and as a combatant/civilian ratio.

It’s interesting.

I guess the expectation is that because it's 2023, and because we know the U.S. armaments in this conflict are state-of-the-art, the precision of the war would be much more efficient than, say, the Civil War or WWI or WWII, etc. So it's difficult to understand how there's a fair comparison there.

A good guess, but the fact is that in 2022, the UN estimated that civilians constituted 90% of casualties in recent conflicts.

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm

So there are really two possibilities here:

1. People’s expectations of the grim realities of conflict have suddenly and inexplicably become skewed.

2. People are reacting differently because this conflict involves Israel.

I’d say that #2 is the more plausible explanation.

Ok. So if you are ok with civilians dying why are the civilian deaths on 10:7 so horrible to you? From a Palestinian perspective they are all a part of a war that stretches back to the 1940s. Hostages included.

Personally, I think it’s horrific. And I thin kIsraeli’s actions are equally horrific. Bit of you are saying civilian deaths in a war are a-ok, then please explain why 10/7 is so very different. And please keep in mind that for every Israeli death since 1948, there has been at least 10x Palestinian deaths.

Because 10/7 was an attack with no military objective, intended and designed with the sole goal of killing, torturing and raping civilians.

That’s far different and far more horrific than military actions with military objectives that result in civilian casualties.

That’s been the global consensus from a moral and legal perspective for decades.

Note that I deplore all civilian casualties, so I’m not “ok” with any. But I do recognize the reality of war.

Now, why don’t you answer my question?

Why are civilian casualties in the current conflict receiving so much more attention than other conflicts, despite both the raw and proportional numbers being relatively low?

Is it sudden onset naïveté? Or something else?

I can't help but wonder if arguments like this are posted just to make certain points of view seem prevalent. I wonder that because rationally, you make no sense.

Let's say we change the rules of engagement to make random acts of brutal terror against a civilian population a totally normal occurance. Part of the way war works. What do you think will happen? How will that go?

How would send your kids to school each day, never knowing if a bomb or a busload of men with machetes might be there to greet them? We Americans *think* we live in fear. We don't know what fear is.

I don't know how to explain this to you. I'm not sure why I keep trying. If you negotiate with terrorists, you are saying "this is how war works. This is something we do now." I understand that carpet bombing civilian neighborhoods is aborhorrent. I know it has a higher body count. But the act of terror happened first. That's what broke the board.

Sorry it's late I was trying to argue with the same person you were, the one who keeps putting a false equivalence here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a difference between Hamas and Palestinians? If the majority is against Hamas, they can easily remove them from leadership positions. They can easily take them out; I have yet to hear an escaped Palestinian say how they hate Hamas.

So you believe collective punishment is warranted then. That"s a horrifying position.

serious question - is this your first time contemplating the horrors of war? did you grow up without access to history books, novels, movies, other people, or any other sources or information

Serious question - are you a troll or just an idiot?

Dp: she's neither. She's one of the most rational people in this thread. You keep waving your hands and talking about collective harm and how horrifying it is, but you're doing so from such a remove. It's like you took a class in geopolitical conflict management, from a bunch of Quakers who are very sad about this and think mindful chiding will help.

It won't.

You being horrified will also not help. Me being horrified that your horror is so selective also does not help... But at least I'm not trying to gain some moral highground with someone else's tragedy.

Snoozefest. It's boring having to endure this war mongering enlightenment talk therapy with yourself, while others (like the person you're replying to) are criticized for their humanity. What are your credentials? Why does your opinion even matter?

Is my opinion supposed to matter? I don't have your inflated sense of self worth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

Did you see any videos portraying rape on the Hamas channels? I am genuinely curious.

Your assessment of my sentiments is entirely incorrect. I have never apologized for rape or torture, and I clearly call sexual abuse "horrific and disgusting," so your conclusions are unfounded. When I point out that the claims of babies being beheaded and hung on clotheslines are false (as in, people lied), this does not mean I don't care about beheading babies or hanging them up with the laundry (in truth, I strenuously object to roasting children or pinning them, either dead or alive, to clotheslines.) It means I have a commitment to the truth. Similarly, I am not detracting from the severity of rape when I point out that Israel has very little credibility, so it would be naive to blindly believe everything it claims (I did acknowledge that I think some of the claims are probably accurate). Perhaps you could try to separate my disinclination to embrace lies as support for whatever is being lied about?

If someone tells you that they met Elvis last Monday and Bigfoot last Tuesday, you could be excused for being a little skeptical if they told you they met Justin Bieber on Wednesday. While it's possible the latest claim is true, one might wonder if this person is prone to hallucinating or is perhaps just plain telling porkie pies.

If I may say so, it seems to me people with an agenda are being rather theatrical and performative about some of Israel's claims. We were all expected to work ourselves into a lather, despise Palestinians, embrace Israel unconditionally, celebrate massacring children in Gaza, and fall about clutching our pearls and collapsing on the fainting couch because Hamas baked a baby in an oven and hung dead babies on a clothesline, except ... that didn't happen. Why would we be stupid enough to blindly believe anything else Israel claims after that? And why would proof of such extreme stupidity be "chilling" or "vicious"? And why would one's very well-founded skepticism indicate lack of sympathy for the victims in the unlikely event something Israel claims actually turns out to be true?

Terrible, cruel, and unjust things undoubtedly happened on 10/7. I don't think anyone denies that. However, the Israeli authorities lie so compulsively that one would have to be extremely dull-witted or childlike not to want some independent verification of anything they tell you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

Did you see any videos portraying rape on the Hamas channels? I am genuinely curious.

Your assessment of my sentiments is entirely incorrect. I have never apologized for rape or torture, and I clearly call sexual abuse "horrific and disgusting," so your conclusions are unfounded. When I point out that the claims of babies being beheaded and hung on clotheslines are false (as in, people lied), this does not mean I don't care about beheading babies or hanging them up with the laundry (in truth, I strenuously object to roasting children or pinning them, either dead or alive, to clotheslines.) It means I have a commitment to the truth. Similarly, I am not detracting from the severity of rape when I point out that Israel has very little credibility, so it would be naive to blindly believe everything it claims (I did acknowledge that I think some of the claims are probably accurate). Perhaps you could try to separate my disinclination to embrace lies as support for whatever is being lied about?

If someone tells you that they met Elvis last Monday and Bigfoot last Tuesday, you could be excused for being a little skeptical if they told you they met Justin Bieber on Wednesday. While it's possible the latest claim is true, one might wonder if this person is prone to hallucinating or is perhaps just plain telling porkie pies.

If I may say so, it seems to me people with an agenda are being rather theatrical and performative about some of Israel's claims. We were all expected to work ourselves into a lather, despise Palestinians, embrace Israel unconditionally, celebrate massacring children in Gaza, and fall about clutching our pearls and collapsing on the fainting couch because Hamas baked a baby in an oven and hung dead babies on a clothesline, except ... that didn't happen. Why would we be stupid enough to blindly believe anything else Israel claims after that? And why would proof of such extreme stupidity be "chilling" or "vicious"? And why would one's very well-founded skepticism indicate lack of sympathy for the victims in the unlikely event something Israel claims actually turns out to be true?

Terrible, cruel, and unjust things undoubtedly happened on 10/7. I don't think anyone denies that. However, the Israeli authorities lie so compulsively that one would have to be extremely dull-witted or childlike not to want some independent verification of anything they tell you.

Mileikowsky will be remembered forever as a butcherous war criminal, and the most heinous pathological liar to lead a country in the first 1/2 of the 21st century.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

Same,PP. Terrible videos all over the internet from Hamas itself and this poster does not believe that atrocities. Not to mention the way the poster characterizes Israel in the most anti-Semitic ways.

So interesting how the same posters who say everything Israel / Jews say are lies (because of course Jews can’t be trusted), but everything Hamas, a depraved terrorist organization, says must be true. Even though we know Hamas has repeatedly lied and misrepresented events.

If Israel was any other nation in the world, they would have support for their defense in the wake of 10/7.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

Same,PP. Terrible videos all over the internet from Hamas itself and this poster does not believe that atrocities. Not to mention the way the poster characterizes Israel in the most anti-Semitic ways.

So interesting how the same posters who say everything Israel / Jews say are lies (because of course Jews can’t be trusted), but everything Hamas, a depraved terrorist organization, says must be true. Even though we know Hamas has repeatedly lied and misrepresented events.

If Israel was any other nation in the world, they would have support for their defense in the wake of 10/7.

Some good points there, but you're ignoring the root of the problem, which was obvious since the original blm/ antifa riots of 2014 and 2015: the "intersectional" bs ideology that justified, even glorified, violence when committed against those groups perceived to be in power (police, whites, "colonialists," straight people, wealthy people...).

Too many Jewish Americans bought into that, even helped promote it, and now we see the broader consequences.