Who said there isn't a North-South divide?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So whats the solution -- should we move to an all lottery model? You rank your top 4 choices and you get what you get?

Eliminate all choice school options in SA. Make everyone go to their neighborhood school.

No, we've got enough equity to move, and plenty of income to afford private, as do all of our neighbors. Force is not likely to help. People who wouldn't send their kids to the neighborhood schools by choice won't go to the neighborhood schools by force. Some that are better integrated and trending in the right direction with test scores might stand a chance, but the ones that have only one SFH neighborhood and then hundreds of units of AH within the walk zone, where over 70% of the students within the physical zone are living below the poverty line, won't ever change unless the neighborhoods themselves change or the boundaries change significantly. The vast majority of UMC professionals will not accept sending their kids to schools without adequate capital, both financial and social. Do I like that this is the truth? No. But it is the truth. It's a fantasy to believe differently. I think most people living in SA want truly diverse schools, and that is why the option schools are so popular. Until they perceive high poverty schools as being just as able to address the needs and abilities of their more affluent children, they will find alternatives. They will because they can. Simple as that.

Agreed. People aren’t understanding that a school like Randolph would not be significantly impacted if every UMC kid suddenly enrolled next year. Maybe it drops from 77 % low income to 69%. That’s not going to be acceptable to most educated parents. As well it shouldn’t.

Then perhaps they shouldn't have bought houses there in the first place.

Or, perhaps they should have moved there, and should advocate for an integrated school that isn't just an SOL cram facility. A high poverty school is a problem, period. We shouldn't, as a county, accept them whether our kids are zoned for them or not. They are not good for anyone, especially poor kids.

If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

But having the UMC moving to high poverty neighborhoods/school zones and advocating for better boundaries or more choices is how integration happens, and is the only way. No one else will advocate for such arrangements. Certainly not NA parents.

Add reasonable boundary adjustments to the list of things I have no problem with them advocating for, because that's something that would actually help the neighborhood school. I am not opposed to integration, I'm opposed to putting resources into creating more avenues for UMC families to flee higher-FARMs schools, which only makes the inequality between neighborhood schools even worse.

Actually, option schools make the jr high schools and high school more integrated. Eliminating option schools won't "force" UMC students to attend segregated elementaries. For the hundredth time. Without option schools, UMC students in south Arlington would just go private or move away. Randolph would be just as segregated, with or without option schools.

The big difference is that Wakefield would be as segregated as Randolph, because it would no longer have option elementaries as feeders. No option schools in SA, no UMC in the upper grades. It's that simple.

The effect of option programs within neighborhood schools at the middle and high school is negligible. At Wakefield, the effect of immersion and the AP network is to decrease the FARMs rate by a single percentage point. At W-L, the effect of IB is to decrease the FARMs rate by 3 percentage points. At Gunston, montessori and immersion reduce the FARMs rate by 2 percentage points. And then there's HB Woodlawn, where the 18% FARMs rate is only 3 percentage points higher than Yorktown but is 17 points lower than W-L and 32 points lower than Wakefield. That's not integration.

Curious how you are calculating that without knowing where current Wakefield students attended elementary and middle school.

You can derive it from the historical pupil transfer reports. Up until this year, they gave demographic breakdowns for disadvantaged status by each type of transfer into a school. So you can see how many students transferred in to a school via the option program, as well and how many of them did/did not qualify for FARMs.

Hmmm. Transfer reports don't track feeder schools, they track transfer from one school or program to another within school levels. So for example, he 2016-17 transfer report for Gunston shows 297 transfers, and breaks them down by the other middle schools from where those students are zoned for. Now, generally, most of those transfers are in fact immersion students continuing the program into middle school since gunston is the only middle school for that. So it sorta tracks feeder elementaries, But you can't tell if those are SA students who attended claremont or NA who went to key. And you can't figure out what elementaries wakefield students came from via the transfer report either. I think the best estimate would be to say, half of wakefields 2000 students are farms, and assume that the ones who aren't all attended SA elementaries and are distributed across those elementaries in proportion to those schools share of the SA student population.

You don’t need to do any of that to calculate the impact of an option program on the FARMS rate. Look at the number of students who transfer into the school and how many of them are FARMS-eligible. Back those numbers out of the total students and total FARMS-eligible for the school and calculate what the FARMS rate is for everyone other than the option transfers and you can see how the rate changes with and without the option program(s).

You can do that for middle and high school option programs but the original point the pp made was that elementary option schools help keep the UMC in south Arlington into middle and high school. The transfer reports don't really speak to that phenomenon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You can do that for middle and high school option programs but the original point the pp made was that elementary option schools help keep the UMC in south Arlington into middle and high school. The transfer reports don't really speak to that phenomenon.

PP will need to provide some evidentiary support for that, because otherwise I'm not terribly convinced that someone who will fight tooth and nail to get their kid out of a 70% FARMS elementary school is going to be totally cool with a 50% FARMS high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So whats the solution -- should we move to an all lottery model? You rank your top 4 choices and you get what you get?

Eliminate all choice school options in SA. Make everyone go to their neighborhood school.

No, we've got enough equity to move, and plenty of income to afford private, as do all of our neighbors. Force is not likely to help. People who wouldn't send their kids to the neighborhood schools by choice won't go to the neighborhood schools by force. Some that are better integrated and trending in the right direction with test scores might stand a chance, but the ones that have only one SFH neighborhood and then hundreds of units of AH within the walk zone, where over 70% of the students within the physical zone are living below the poverty line, won't ever change unless the neighborhoods themselves change or the boundaries change significantly. The vast majority of UMC professionals will not accept sending their kids to schools without adequate capital, both financial and social. Do I like that this is the truth? No. But it is the truth. It's a fantasy to believe differently. I think most people living in SA want truly diverse schools, and that is why the option schools are so popular. Until they perceive high poverty schools as being just as able to address the needs and abilities of their more affluent children, they will find alternatives. They will because they can. Simple as that.

Agreed. People aren’t understanding that a school like Randolph would not be significantly impacted if every UMC kid suddenly enrolled next year. Maybe it drops from 77 % low income to 69%. That’s not going to be acceptable to most educated parents. As well it shouldn’t.

Then perhaps they shouldn't have bought houses there in the first place.

Or, perhaps they should have moved there, and should advocate for an integrated school that isn't just an SOL cram facility. A high poverty school is a problem, period. We shouldn't, as a county, accept them whether our kids are zoned for them or not. They are not good for anyone, especially poor kids.

If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can do that for middle and high school option programs but the original point the pp made was that elementary option schools help keep the UMC in south Arlington into middle and high school. The transfer reports don't really speak to that phenomenon.

PP will need to provide some evidentiary support for that, because otherwise I'm not terribly convinced that someone who will fight tooth and nail to get their kid out of a 70% FARMS elementary school is going to be totally cool with a 50% FARMS high school.

Hard to quantify, agree. Across SA elementary population as a whole, the farms rate is 50%. That's the same as Wakefield, which they all feed into. So it's reasonable to imagine that Wakefield draws roughly proportionately from SA elementaries. Obviously Henry and Oakridge are the biggest sources of Wakefield's non-farms, since they aren't title 1 schools. So it follows that other schools that aren't title 1 are also sources, and that means option schools. Wakefields nonfarms students must come from somewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

What are "they" advocating for? What is "their" position on the upcoming boundary process? So far all I see is more elementary option programs and county-wide busing, neither of which is feasible at this point in time (or ever, in the case of the latter). Oh, and one person saying we should reopen the location review and move the immersion schools to Barcroft/Carlin Springs, which would be a good idea to look at further but it's kind of funny to be treating it as something "they" wanted all along considering that while the process was going on, "they" called the NA folks who also supported that plan racists who didn't want brown kids bused into 22207.

You have to admit, it's a little hard to figure out what "we're" supposed to be supporting "them" on here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can do that for middle and high school option programs but the original point the pp made was that elementary option schools help keep the UMC in south Arlington into middle and high school. The transfer reports don't really speak to that phenomenon.

PP will need to provide some evidentiary support for that, because otherwise I'm not terribly convinced that someone who will fight tooth and nail to get their kid out of a 70% FARMS elementary school is going to be totally cool with a 50% FARMS high school.

Hard to quantify, agree. Across SA elementary population as a whole, the farms rate is 50%. That's the same as Wakefield, which they all feed into. So it's reasonable to imagine that Wakefield draws roughly proportionately from SA elementaries. Obviously Henry and Oakridge are the biggest sources of Wakefield's non-farms, since they aren't title 1 schools. So it follows that other schools that aren't title 1 are also sources, and that means option schools. Wakefields nonfarms students must come from somewhere.

That's not a necessary conclusion, in fact that data suggests an alternative explanation that a significant number of non-ED students families may continue to transfer out of their neighborhood schools through high school are are partially off-set by non-ED transfers into Wakefield. Looking again at the 2016-17 transfer data, of the 357 students who transferred out of Wakefield to other Arlington high schools, at bare minimum 139 of them (39% of transfers) were non-ED. More likely the number is closer to 216 (61% of transfers), if not higher.* Wherever the number falls between 139 or 216 (or more), though, it was definitely more than the 118 non-ED students who transferred into Wakefield that year.

* The 139 was calculated by looking at the number of students who transferred from Wakefield to each school and assumed that as many of them as possible were ED given the number of ED students who transferred to each high school. The 216 was calculated by assuming that ED transfers into each school came proportionally from each of the sending schools. So in the case of HB Woodlawn, which draws from all three schools, assume 48% of the ED transfers to HB came from Wakefield, because Wakefield's zone had roughly 48% of the ED population across the three schools at that point. When looking at transfers to W-L, assume transfers from Wakefield accounted for 79% of the ED transfers into W-L, because when looking at just Wakefield and Yorktown, Wakefield has about 79% of the total ED population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

What are "they" advocating for? What is "their" position on the upcoming boundary process? So far all I see is more elementary option programs and county-wide busing, neither of which is feasible at this point in time (or ever, in the case of the latter). Oh, and one person saying we should reopen the location review and move the immersion schools to Barcroft/Carlin Springs, which would be a good idea to look at further but it's kind of funny to be treating it as something "they" wanted all along considering that while the process was going on, "they" called the NA folks who also supported that plan racists who didn't want brown kids bused into 22207.

You have to admit, it's a little hard to figure out what "we're" supposed to be supporting "them" on here.

Not sure why you think there is one person, or even one group of people acting as a bloc, commenting in here. Who is calling for countywide busing? And as for increasing options, I haven't mentioned that yet, I only talked about placement and admissions policies. However, now that you mention it, if enrollment keeps going up, we may need to increase the number of option schools to keep pace and maintain the current level of access to those highly sought-after programs. Not sure that we're at that point yet, but we will be eventually. I think Key has to move. I have always said so. That area needs a neighborhood school and the program should be located closer the denser populations of native Spanish speakers. Carlin Springs makes more sense than Barcroft. That doesn't mean 22207 is off the hook. I think they're still going to get an option school, simply because there will be too many seats nearby. I don't think any school in that quadrant makes sense as an option program for any other reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

What are "they" advocating for? What is "their" position on the upcoming boundary process? So far all I see is more elementary option programs and county-wide busing, neither of which is feasible at this point in time (or ever, in the case of the latter). Oh, and one person saying we should reopen the location review and move the immersion schools to Barcroft/Carlin Springs, which would be a good idea to look at further but it's kind of funny to be treating it as something "they" wanted all along considering that while the process was going on, "they" called the NA folks who also supported that plan racists who didn't want brown kids bused into 22207.

You have to admit, it's a little hard to figure out what "we're" supposed to be supporting "them" on here.

Not sure why you think there is one person, or even one group of people acting as a bloc, commenting in here. Who is calling for countywide busing? And as for increasing options, I haven't mentioned that yet, I only talked about placement and admissions policies. However, now that you mention it, if enrollment keeps going up, we may need to increase the number of option schools to keep pace and maintain the current level of access to those highly sought-after programs. Not sure that we're at that point yet, but we will be eventually. I think Key has to move. I have always said so. That area needs a neighborhood school and the program should be located closer the denser populations of native Spanish speakers. Carlin Springs makes more sense than Barcroft. That doesn't mean 22207 is off the hook. I think they're still going to get an option school, simply because there will be too many seats nearby. I don't think any school in that quadrant makes sense as an option program for any other reason.

So you think the Henry folks moving to Fleet will be totally cool with Fleet being 50% FARMS? Um, okay. Sure. Good luck with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

What are "they" advocating for? What is "their" position on the upcoming boundary process? So far all I see is more elementary option programs and county-wide busing, neither of which is feasible at this point in time (or ever, in the case of the latter). Oh, and one person saying we should reopen the location review and move the immersion schools to Barcroft/Carlin Springs, which would be a good idea to look at further but it's kind of funny to be treating it as something "they" wanted all along considering that while the process was going on, "they" called the NA folks who also supported that plan racists who didn't want brown kids bused into 22207.

You have to admit, it's a little hard to figure out what "we're" supposed to be supporting "them" on here.

Not sure why you think there is one person, or even one group of people acting as a bloc, commenting in here. Who is calling for countywide busing? And as for increasing options, I haven't mentioned that yet, I only talked about placement and admissions policies. However, now that you mention it, if enrollment keeps going up, we may need to increase the number of option schools to keep pace and maintain the current level of access to those highly sought-after programs. Not sure that we're at that point yet, but we will be eventually. I think Key has to move. I have always said so. That area needs a neighborhood school and the program should be located closer the denser populations of native Spanish speakers. Carlin Springs makes more sense than Barcroft. That doesn't mean 22207 is off the hook. I think they're still going to get an option school, simply because there will be too many seats nearby. I don't think any school in that quadrant makes sense as an option program for any other reason.

Go ahead and put ATS at Nottingham, you'll only make it harder for your kid to get in when the application numbers from Tuckahoe, Discovery, and Jamestown skyrocket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

What are "they" advocating for? What is "their" position on the upcoming boundary process? So far all I see is more elementary option programs and county-wide busing, neither of which is feasible at this point in time (or ever, in the case of the latter). Oh, and one person saying we should reopen the location review and move the immersion schools to Barcroft/Carlin Springs, which would be a good idea to look at further but it's kind of funny to be treating it as something "they" wanted all along considering that while the process was going on, "they" called the NA folks who also supported that plan racists who didn't want brown kids bused into 22207.

You have to admit, it's a little hard to figure out what "we're" supposed to be supporting "them" on here.

Not sure why you think there is one person, or even one group of people acting as a bloc, commenting in here. Who is calling for countywide busing? And as for increasing options, I haven't mentioned that yet, I only talked about placement and admissions policies. However, now that you mention it, if enrollment keeps going up, we may need to increase the number of option schools to keep pace and maintain the current level of access to those highly sought-after programs. Not sure that we're at that point yet, but we will be eventually. I think Key has to move. I have always said so. That area needs a neighborhood school and the program should be located closer the denser populations of native Spanish speakers. Carlin Springs makes more sense than Barcroft. That doesn't mean 22207 is off the hook. I think they're still going to get an option school, simply because there will be too many seats nearby. I don't think any school in that quadrant makes sense as an option program for any other reason.

So you think the Henry folks moving to Fleet will be totally cool with Fleet being 50% FARMS? Um, okay. Sure. Good luck with that.

Not all of the Henry folks are likely to move to Fleet. The likely boundary, based on walk zone, would actually move out the poorest Henry PUs and move in new UMC PUs to the new ES, which would also hurt Barcroft's balance. The current Henry parents don't want that. I think they'd be fine at around 50% fr/l, since they were there just a few short years ago, and were close to that level when they were named a Blue Ribbon school. 50% across South Arlington schools, plus or minus 10 percent, would be okay. Not perfect, but better for the majority of schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

What are "they" advocating for? What is "their" position on the upcoming boundary process? So far all I see is more elementary option programs and county-wide busing, neither of which is feasible at this point in time (or ever, in the case of the latter). Oh, and one person saying we should reopen the location review and move the immersion schools to Barcroft/Carlin Springs, which would be a good idea to look at further but it's kind of funny to be treating it as something "they" wanted all along considering that while the process was going on, "they" called the NA folks who also supported that plan racists who didn't want brown kids bused into 22207.

You have to admit, it's a little hard to figure out what "we're" supposed to be supporting "them" on here.

Not sure why you think there is one person, or even one group of people acting as a bloc, commenting in here. Who is calling for countywide busing? And as for increasing options, I haven't mentioned that yet, I only talked about placement and admissions policies. However, now that you mention it, if enrollment keeps going up, we may need to increase the number of option schools to keep pace and maintain the current level of access to those highly sought-after programs. Not sure that we're at that point yet, but we will be eventually. I think Key has to move. I have always said so. That area needs a neighborhood school and the program should be located closer the denser populations of native Spanish speakers. Carlin Springs makes more sense than Barcroft. That doesn't mean 22207 is off the hook. I think they're still going to get an option school, simply because there will be too many seats nearby. I don't think any school in that quadrant makes sense as an option program for any other reason.

Go ahead and put ATS at Nottingham, you'll only make it harder for your kid to get in when the application numbers from Tuckahoe, Discovery, and Jamestown skyrocket.

My kids are already in ES. Do you have a better suggestion for what they can do in the NW? I really don't care one way or the other how they solve the NW seat overrun. Not my mess or business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

What are "they" advocating for? What is "their" position on the upcoming boundary process? So far all I see is more elementary option programs and county-wide busing, neither of which is feasible at this point in time (or ever, in the case of the latter). Oh, and one person saying we should reopen the location review and move the immersion schools to Barcroft/Carlin Springs, which would be a good idea to look at further but it's kind of funny to be treating it as something "they" wanted all along considering that while the process was going on, "they" called the NA folks who also supported that plan racists who didn't want brown kids bused into 22207.

You have to admit, it's a little hard to figure out what "we're" supposed to be supporting "them" on here.

Not sure why you think there is one person, or even one group of people acting as a bloc, commenting in here. Who is calling for countywide busing? And as for increasing options, I haven't mentioned that yet, I only talked about placement and admissions policies. However, now that you mention it, if enrollment keeps going up, we may need to increase the number of option schools to keep pace and maintain the current level of access to those highly sought-after programs. Not sure that we're at that point yet, but we will be eventually. I think Key has to move. I have always said so. That area needs a neighborhood school and the program should be located closer the denser populations of native Spanish speakers. Carlin Springs makes more sense than Barcroft. That doesn't mean 22207 is off the hook. I think they're still going to get an option school, simply because there will be too many seats nearby. I don't think any school in that quadrant makes sense as an option program for any other reason.

Go ahead and put ATS at Nottingham, you'll only make it harder for your kid to get in when the application numbers from Tuckahoe, Discovery, and Jamestown skyrocket.

My kids are already in ES. Do you have a better suggestion for what they can do in the NW? I really don't care one way or the other how they solve the NW seat overrun. Not my mess or business.

How about they do it Williamsburg-style, making the schools under capacity and then allow neighborhood transfers up to the transfer cap. That would solve the "overrun," and I'm sure you wouldn't protest since you don't care one way or another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they moved there and then advocated for things to reduce the FARMS rate (e.g., no more AH in the area, relocating option programs to break up poverty clusters), I would respect that. But when you buy in a 70% FARMS school hoping you'll back-door into a "good" school via the option lottery or neighborhood transfer, don't throw a temper tantrum about the unfairness when it doesn't pan out and then demand that the county give you additional options for getting out of your own neighborhood. I have zero sympathy for that.

I really don't think this perspective is fair and I'm rather tired of hearing/reading it from so many posters on this forum and elsewhere. Not everyone who does not qualify for FRL can afford the most expensive neighborhoods in north Arlington. Or, they have a combination of priorities they want when purchasing a house and making a home for their family - not just the school. Like, size of house, condition of house, size of yard, availability at the time they are purchasing and budget, convenience to public transit, access to major roads for commute to work. Besides, not everyone was born and raised here and knows everything about every school before they buy a home; or have a naive understanding/vision of what academic sacrifices they might actually be making for their child. Not all of us bought here banking on option schools. We bought where we could find a home we like enough and could afford, under the impression that "all Arlington schools are good." And, with few exceptions, they are -- just not equally good.

Secondly, "they" ARE advocating but the SB doesn't give a crap and the AH advocates and providers have such a hold on the CB that "they" can't break through and everyone calls them racists when they try. South Arlington residents can't win no matter what - vitriol and accusations when they speak up, told they only have themselves to blame when they don't speak up.

What are "they" advocating for? What is "their" position on the upcoming boundary process? So far all I see is more elementary option programs and county-wide busing, neither of which is feasible at this point in time (or ever, in the case of the latter). Oh, and one person saying we should reopen the location review and move the immersion schools to Barcroft/Carlin Springs, which would be a good idea to look at further but it's kind of funny to be treating it as something "they" wanted all along considering that while the process was going on, "they" called the NA folks who also supported that plan racists who didn't want brown kids bused into 22207.

You have to admit, it's a little hard to figure out what "we're" supposed to be supporting "them" on here.

Not sure why you think there is one person, or even one group of people acting as a bloc, commenting in here. Who is calling for countywide busing? And as for increasing options, I haven't mentioned that yet, I only talked about placement and admissions policies. However, now that you mention it, if enrollment keeps going up, we may need to increase the number of option schools to keep pace and maintain the current level of access to those highly sought-after programs. Not sure that we're at that point yet, but we will be eventually. I think Key has to move. I have always said so. That area needs a neighborhood school and the program should be located closer the denser populations of native Spanish speakers. Carlin Springs makes more sense than Barcroft. That doesn't mean 22207 is off the hook. I think they're still going to get an option school, simply because there will be too many seats nearby. I don't think any school in that quadrant makes sense as an option program for any other reason.

So you think the Henry folks moving to Fleet will be totally cool with Fleet being 50% FARMS? Um, okay. Sure. Good luck with that.

Not all of the Henry folks are likely to move to Fleet. The likely boundary, based on walk zone, would actually move out the poorest Henry PUs and move in new UMC PUs to the new ES, which would also hurt Barcroft's balance. The current Henry parents don't want that. I think they'd be fine at around 50% fr/l, since they were there just a few short years ago, and were close to that level when they were named a Blue Ribbon school. 50% across South Arlington schools, plus or minus 10 percent, would be okay. Not perfect, but better for the majority of schools.

I hope you can appreciate the irony of posting this in a thread started to lament the extent of the across-the-board disparity between North and South Arlington schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can do that for middle and high school option programs but the original point the pp made was that elementary option schools help keep the UMC in south Arlington into middle and high school. The transfer reports don't really speak to that phenomenon.

PP will need to provide some evidentiary support for that, because otherwise I'm not terribly convinced that someone who will fight tooth and nail to get their kid out of a 70% FARMS elementary school is going to be totally cool with a 50% FARMS high school.

Hard to quantify, agree. Across SA elementary population as a whole, the farms rate is 50%. That's the same as Wakefield, which they all feed into. So it's reasonable to imagine that Wakefield draws roughly proportionately from SA elementaries. Obviously Henry and Oakridge are the biggest sources of Wakefield's non-farms, since they aren't title 1 schools. So it follows that other schools that aren't title 1 are also sources, and that means option schools. Wakefields nonfarms students must come from somewhere.

That's not a necessary conclusion, in fact that data suggests an alternative explanation that a significant number of non-ED students families may continue to transfer out of their neighborhood schools through high school are are partially off-set by non-ED transfers into Wakefield. Looking again at the 2016-17 transfer data, of the 357 students who transferred out of Wakefield to other Arlington high schools, at bare minimum 139 of them (39% of transfers) were non-ED. More likely the number is closer to 216 (61% of transfers), if not higher.* Wherever the number falls between 139 or 216 (or more), though, it was definitely more than the 118 non-ED students who transferred into Wakefield that year.

* The 139 was calculated by looking at the number of students who transferred from Wakefield to each school and assumed that as many of them as possible were ED given the number of ED students who transferred to each high school. The 216 was calculated by assuming that ED transfers into each school came proportionally from each of the sending schools. So in the case of HB Woodlawn, which draws from all three schools, assume 48% of the ED transfers to HB came from Wakefield, because Wakefield's zone had roughly 48% of the ED population across the three schools at that point. When looking at transfers to W-L, assume transfers from Wakefield accounted for 79% of the ED transfers into W-L, because when looking at just Wakefield and Yorktown, Wakefield has about 79% of the total ED population.

Yes, some non-ed students transfer out of SA/Wakefield, and others (a smaller number) from NA transfer in. But we're taking about a net of well under 200. There are about 1,000 non-ed students at Wakefield. The churn you describe simply isn't big enough to account for where most of those non-ED students came from. Perhaps some portion moved here after going to middle school a different school district. But the simplest explanation is that they came from SA elementary and then middle schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can do that for middle and high school option programs but the original point the pp made was that elementary option schools help keep the UMC in south Arlington into middle and high school. The transfer reports don't really speak to that phenomenon.

PP will need to provide some evidentiary support for that, because otherwise I'm not terribly convinced that someone who will fight tooth and nail to get their kid out of a 70% FARMS elementary school is going to be totally cool with a 50% FARMS high school.

Hard to quantify, agree. Across SA elementary population as a whole, the farms rate is 50%. That's the same as Wakefield, which they all feed into. So it's reasonable to imagine that Wakefield draws roughly proportionately from SA elementaries. Obviously Henry and Oakridge are the biggest sources of Wakefield's non-farms, since they aren't title 1 schools. So it follows that other schools that aren't title 1 are also sources, and that means option schools. Wakefields nonfarms students must come from somewhere.

That's not a necessary conclusion, in fact that data suggests an alternative explanation that a significant number of non-ED students families may continue to transfer out of their neighborhood schools through high school are are partially off-set by non-ED transfers into Wakefield. Looking again at the 2016-17 transfer data, of the 357 students who transferred out of Wakefield to other Arlington high schools, at bare minimum 139 of them (39% of transfers) were non-ED. More likely the number is closer to 216 (61% of transfers), if not higher.* Wherever the number falls between 139 or 216 (or more), though, it was definitely more than the 118 non-ED students who transferred into Wakefield that year.

* The 139 was calculated by looking at the number of students who transferred from Wakefield to each school and assumed that as many of them as possible were ED given the number of ED students who transferred to each high school. The 216 was calculated by assuming that ED transfers into each school came proportionally from each of the sending schools. So in the case of HB Woodlawn, which draws from all three schools, assume 48% of the ED transfers to HB came from Wakefield, because Wakefield's zone had roughly 48% of the ED population across the three schools at that point. When looking at transfers to W-L, assume transfers from Wakefield accounted for 79% of the ED transfers into W-L, because when looking at just Wakefield and Yorktown, Wakefield has about 79% of the total ED population.

Yes, some non-ed students transfer out of SA/Wakefield, and others (a smaller number) from NA transfer in. But we're taking about a net of well under 200. There are about 1,000 non-ed students at Wakefield. The churn you describe simply isn't big enough to account for where most of those non-ED students came from. Perhaps some portion moved here after going to middle school a different school district. But the simplest explanation is that they came from SA elementary and then middle schools.

None of this means elementary option programs are keeping UMC families in Wakefield. You haven’t shown us anything to support that claim.