High schoolers can’t write

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

Exactly! Stop making excuses for these teachers. If the teacher is already reading the child's assignment, why not provide constructive feedback.

If it's not for the magnet programs and IB programs, I wouldn't send my worst enemy to the regular program at MCPS. TOTAL JOKE! Kids are just being handed out As

BS. Only on DCUM everyone is getting As in MCPS.
Not in real life.

50% of the class of 2023 in MCPS had a 4.0. Grade inflation is a real problem.

It’s not grade inflation. It’s a dumped down curriculum with no challenge.

And y'all still can't compete with MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who are high school English teachers and college writing professors have been talking for several years now about the complete decline of basic writing ability they are seeing in students. They say it is abysmal.

Are they providing this feedback to students?

Why are OPs kids getting As?

There is a rubric, and kids highlight the parts match the rubric in their essay. If all the colors were shown in the essay, it’s graded an A. At least that’s how I feel DS got his grades.

And I’m not a native speaker and can’t really write well myself, and tried a bunch of tutors, the thing my kid struggled is he doesn’t see there is a point to “practice” or “write outside of class work,”. And I don’t quite know where he stands compare to his peers, there are obviously liberal arts kids that write pretty well, and there is him and a bunch of others just to get the grammar stuff correctly but not well written.

[Anonymous]

Another issue is that kids don't read. That's a big reason they can't write. Kids who read a lot have a leg up on the kids who don't when it comes to writing.

PSA to parents of little kids - hold off on tech for as long as you possibly can and make them engage with print materials all the time. Once the door is open to tablets and phones etc, it is really hard for students to sit for/engage with/ learn! the complex task of reading. And then... High schoolers can't write.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all true. The kids can’t write. I work in MCPS and have kids in the schools.

The lucky few get into humanities magnets in middle school and do learn. And then go on to high school and college well prepared.

If you have a choice between high quality stem instruction and high quality English and writing instruction, choose the latter. There are so many ways to find math enrichment for your child. Not so many for writing- let me know if you find them!

So if private schools are an acceptable option (ideologically/financially) and you really care about this issue, go for it. And then buy the enrichment in math a la carte.

I made the opposite choice- turning up my nose at the math/science available at the privates, but I don’t think I’d do it again. The kids really don’t learn how to write with the exception of some of the magnets.

I’m curious what your opposition to math at private school was? I know they don’t accelerate as much, but my understanding is that’s actually recommended, from a pedagogical standpoint.

Holton Arms has a particularly thorough explanation of the reasoning why they approach math the way they do (aka without acceleration for the vast majority of students until high school): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dQXiD9zHmP29RbpgGFTxXUs4YEfamalltpkL3MtWNEg/edit

I’m not sure that science is worse at the best private schools. Bullis’ engineering/makerlab space is unbelievable, for example.

That’s rich. I looked at the privates. My kid started algebra in 6th and none of the schools could accommodate that and few had true differentiation as the class sizes were small. We did private summer math classes, sine good, one really bad. How the school responded to the really bad was to dismiss the concerns and I could not imagine any of the classes we had were worth that kind of money. Our mcps teachers were better.

Lab space is nice, good teachers are nicer.

Name “the privates” because I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head that accommodate advanced math students. My kid is at a very competitive single sex Catholic high school where each kid is given a standardized math test, is individually tested and then in conjunction with a review of middle school grades and a consultation with the previous year’s math teacher, the school determines where your child should be placed in math. And the placement is right 99% of the time because the assessment is so thorough. MCPS wins for accelerating in math but private schools win when it comes to ensuring that the proper foundation is there before moving a student forward in math. Which do you prefer? On the private school board we never have parents asking about moving their kids down in math because it is too hard. Never. There is a reason why - the kid is properly placed up front. The “private schools have bad math” is the defensive cry of the uninformed and under resourced.

Math is math. The teacher makes the difference.

Yes, the teacher needs to actually know the math and be able to teach it in a way that students can learn and understand not just the "what" but the "why."

Exactly. Holton has a great explanation of why they rarely accelerate students in math until high school:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dQXiD9zHmP29RbpgGFTxXUs4YEfamalltpkL3MtWNEg/edit

They have algebra in 7th grade for all. That is accelerated by 2 years. It is in 9th under CCSS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

Exactly! Stop making excuses for these teachers. If the teacher is already reading the child's assignment, why not provide constructive feedback.

If it's not for the magnet programs and IB programs, I wouldn't send my worst enemy to the regular program at MCPS. TOTAL JOKE! Kids are just being handed out As

Hate to break it to you, but my kid who did one of the non test in IB programs just failed his college freshman English class. He didn't learn how to write even in an IB program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

Exactly! Stop making excuses for these teachers. If the teacher is already reading the child's assignment, why not provide constructive feedback.

If it's not for the magnet programs and IB programs, I wouldn't send my worst enemy to the regular program at MCPS. TOTAL JOKE! Kids are just being handed out As

Hate to break it to you, but my kid who did one of the non test in IB programs just failed his college freshman English class. He didn't learn how to write even in an IB program.

I’m wondering about the variables here. Did he actually pass IB English, with a 4 or higher? Did he regularly attend his college English class? (College freshmen have a reputation for getting a bit distracted.)

IB is usually GREAT at teaching writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

Exactly! Stop making excuses for these teachers. If the teacher is already reading the child's assignment, why not provide constructive feedback.

If it's not for the magnet programs and IB programs, I wouldn't send my worst enemy to the regular program at MCPS. TOTAL JOKE! Kids are just being handed out As

Hate to break it to you, but my kid who did one of the non test in IB programs just failed his college freshman English class. He didn't learn how to write even in an IB program.

I’m wondering about the variables here. Did he actually pass IB English, with a 4 or higher? Did he regularly attend his college English class? (College freshmen have a reputation for getting a bit distracted.)

IB is usually GREAT at teaching writing.

I agree. I need to better understand how your student "did the IB program" as in met all the requirements for the IB diploma and didn't learn to write. There is so much in IB it would likely be harder to write poorly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

Exactly! Stop making excuses for these teachers. If the teacher is already reading the child's assignment, why not provide constructive feedback.

If it's not for the magnet programs and IB programs, I wouldn't send my worst enemy to the regular program at MCPS. TOTAL JOKE! Kids are just being handed out As

Hate to break it to you, but my kid who did one of the non test in IB programs just failed his college freshman English class. He didn't learn how to write even in an IB program.

If your kid failed English as a college freshman, it’s probably not because he can’t write. It’s far more likely he failed because he *didn’t* write.

Plenty of smart kids go off the rails freshman year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another issue is that kids don't read. That's a big reason they can't write. Kids who read a lot have a leg up on the kids who don't when it comes to writing.

PSA to parents of little kids - hold off on tech for as long as you possibly can and make them engage with print materials all the time. Once the door is open to tablets and phones etc, it is really hard for students to sit for/engage with/ learn! the complex task of reading. And then... High schoolers can't write.

Tech always isn’t bad. Lots of great learning apps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

Exactly! Stop making excuses for these teachers. If the teacher is already reading the child's assignment, why not provide constructive feedback.

If it's not for the magnet programs and IB programs, I wouldn't send my worst enemy to the regular program at MCPS. TOTAL JOKE! Kids are just being handed out As

Hate to break it to you, but my kid who did one of the non test in IB programs just failed his college freshman English class. He didn't learn how to write even in an IB program.

If your kid failed English as a college freshman, it’s probably not because he can’t write. It’s far more likely he failed because he *didn’t* write.

Plenty of smart kids go off the rails freshman year.

IB is supposed to be more writing. He probably did not do the work.

[Anonymous]

I wish there was a Mathnasium for writing. You can get your kid extra help in math--but unless you shell out big bucks for a tutor, it's harder for writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

Well, they have to read the essay. They could add a sentence of feedback. It's really not asking that much. And to say you get 2.5/3 on this part of the rubric is not helpful - where did the student miss the mark? And when a student asks for feedback and is told no, the teacher is not performing his or her job at a basic level.

Seriously. When I was in public school in the 90s, I always got feedback on my writing. My teachers had the same number of kids in their classes as MCPS teachers do.

We need to stop making excuses or acting like teachers are dealing with situations that have never ever happened before.

Exactly! Stop making excuses for these teachers. If the teacher is already reading the child's assignment, why not provide constructive feedback.

If it's not for the magnet programs and IB programs, I wouldn't send my worst enemy to the regular program at MCPS. TOTAL JOKE! Kids are just being handed out As

Hate to break it to you, but my kid who did one of the non test in IB programs just failed his college freshman English class. He didn't learn how to write even in an IB program.

Troll.
College just started, how can he just failed his freshman English class?
You can't even troll properly, and hopefully, he's not as dumb as you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wish there was a Mathnasium for writing. You can get your kid extra help in math--but unless you shell out big bucks for a tutor, it's harder for writing.

Try the institute for excellence in writing...it's affordable amd very systematic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should have been working with them at home OP. Everyone knows that.

Parents shouldn’t be the primary instructor for foundational skills like writing.

Yes they should. If you refuse to stop complaining. It’s part of parenting.

Are you a trained educator? What are you specifically doing with your kids at home to teach them to write properly?

You don’t need to be an educator to teach your kid the basics.

The problem is that this refrain comes up for everything- phonics, spelling, writing, history, math, etc. "You should have been working with your child at home." WTF are they doing all day at school if we're expected to do this much supplementing at night in addition to their assigned homework? If they're not even getting "the basics" at school than what is the point.

Exactly! I'm a prosecutor. I'm protecting you all from criminals committing crimes in your neighborhoods. Then I should also teach all school subjects when I get home? Do the teachers prosecute crimes when they get off of work? GTFOH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all true. The kids can’t write. I work in MCPS and have kids in the schools.

The lucky few get into humanities magnets in middle school and do learn. And then go on to high school and college well prepared.

If you have a choice between high quality stem instruction and high quality English and writing instruction, choose the latter. There are so many ways to find math enrichment for your child. Not so many for writing- let me know if you find them!

So if private schools are an acceptable option (ideologically/financially) and you really care about this issue, go for it. And then buy the enrichment in math a la carte.

I made the opposite choice- turning up my nose at the math/science available at the privates, but I don’t think I’d do it again. The kids really don’t learn how to write with the exception of some of the magnets.

I’m curious what your opposition to math at private school was? I know they don’t accelerate as much, but my understanding is that’s actually recommended, from a pedagogical standpoint.

Holton Arms has a particularly thorough explanation of the reasoning why they approach math the way they do (aka without acceleration for the vast majority of students until high school): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dQXiD9zHmP29RbpgGFTxXUs4YEfamalltpkL3MtWNEg/edit

I’m not sure that science is worse at the best private schools. Bullis’ engineering/makerlab space is unbelievable, for example.

That’s rich. I looked at the privates. My kid started algebra in 6th and none of the schools could accommodate that and few had true differentiation as the class sizes were small. We did private summer math classes, sine good, one really bad. How the school responded to the really bad was to dismiss the concerns and I could not imagine any of the classes we had were worth that kind of money. Our mcps teachers were better.

Lab space is nice, good teachers are nicer.

Name “the privates” because I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head that accommodate advanced math students. My kid is at a very competitive single sex Catholic high school where each kid is given a standardized math test, is individually tested and then in conjunction with a review of middle school grades and a consultation with the previous year’s math teacher, the school determines where your child should be placed in math. And the placement is right 99% of the time because the assessment is so thorough. MCPS wins for accelerating in math but private schools win when it comes to ensuring that the proper foundation is there before moving a student forward in math. Which do you prefer? On the private school board we never have parents asking about moving their kids down in math because it is too hard. Never. There is a reason why - the kid is properly placed up front. The “private schools have bad math” is the defensive cry of the uninformed and under resourced.

Math is math. The teacher makes the difference.

Yes, the teacher needs to actually know the math and be able to teach it in a way that students can learn and understand not just the "what" but the "why."

Exactly. Holton has a great explanation of why they rarely accelerate students in math until high school:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dQXiD9zHmP29RbpgGFTxXUs4YEfamalltpkL3MtWNEg/edit

This is great! Now I need an extra $60k for tuition.