University of Alabama - “ peak neo-antebellum white Southern culture” - NYT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

it’s my take that the NYT a was looking for an essay or opinion piece about Bama sororities, since it’s “trending.” They asked this lady because she’s a sociologist who studies similar topics, and black, so it’s a different take on the subject. She takes the job, watches a few TikToks and the documentary, writes a cursory column that’s more like a summary book report with some fireworks at the end - and now THIS!

Not that it would likely matter to you, but she is a regular columnist for the NYT. I just wanted to correct that little part of your narrative.

I have a friend, an academic at a different southern university, who was also a regular columnist for the NYT. It's a temporary gig lasting a few years, I forget how long. His gig expired and he no longer writes columns for them. They have a stable with a few really well-known columnists and the rest are on hire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

But that's not even the issue. Black students VASTLY prefer exclusively black Greek orgs. It's not like they're rushing traditional sororities/frats and getting shut out. They aren't rushing them at ALL, or in very low numbers. The author made no attempt to show any kind of discrimination - because there is zero evidence of such.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

it’s my take that the NYT a was looking for an essay or opinion piece about Bama sororities, since it’s “trending.” They asked this lady because she’s a sociologist who studies similar topics, and black, so it’s a different take on the subject. She takes the job, watches a few TikToks and the documentary, writes a cursory column that’s more like a summary book report with some fireworks at the end - and now THIS!

Can you imagine if they had asked a white sociologist to do a critique of black sororities? They should be ashamed of themselves.

[Anonymous]

Pretty incredible that Tressie ends her rant with this:

"It might be reasonable to want everyone to have access to what Bama Rush promises. But the sorority does not have the power to confer it, not really. It can only brand it and, if it works really hard and looks pretty while doing it, can grow up to marry it. And I ask, why would anyone want to integrate that?

Sometimes the proper place for something is the past, and the thing just does not yet know it."

Is she completely oblivious to the fact that the Divine Nine is very much a part of Bama rush? Or is that dIfFeReNt??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

I mean - the article is transparently about race. Says so on the tin. And I don't really think she's making an argument - she's a cultural critic, she's writing about culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

I mean - the article is transparently about race. Says so on the tin. And I don't really think she's making an argument - she's a cultural critic, she's writing about culture.

So... what? She's just slagging off white co-eds because she can? What's the point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

[Anonymous]

Her point was the upholding of traditional power structures. I get that some of you have issues with other things she said, but her main point was that traditional sororities in the south uphold the white power structure with a side of patriarchy and diversity efforts would just be window dressing.

It is not deep. It is nothing to take personally. I say this as a blonde white woman who loves lulu and makeup and being tan and was in a sorority. This author isn't wrong, even if you don't like how she said it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

Do you believe this? No, a white academic absolutely could not trash black sororities and other institutions. I'm in research, and this will never happen, especially in the NY Times.

But presumably anybody writing about black sororities would say many of the same things about conformity wrt behavior, makeup and dress. If Cottom's problem is with the conformity and MRS degrees, then the Black sororities are just as guilty. Yes, they're affinity groups, but that's actually an argument against discrimination within the white sororities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

Do you believe this? No, a white academic absolutely could not trash black sororities and other institutions. I'm in research, and this will never happen, especially in the NY Times.

But presumably anybody writing about black sororities would say many of the same things about conformity wrt behavior, makeup and dress. If Cottom's problem is with the conformity and MRS degrees, then the Black sororities are just as guilty. Yes, they're affinity groups, but that's actually an argument against discrimination within the white sororities.

Maybe when black sorority rush is all over Tiktok and has a big documentary made about it, she will write a column critiquing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

Do you believe this? No, a white academic absolutely could not trash black sororities and other institutions. I'm in research, and this will never happen, especially in the NY Times.

But presumably anybody writing about black sororities would say many of the same things about conformity wrt behavior, makeup and dress. If Cottom's problem is with the conformity and MRS degrees, then the Black sororities are just as guilty. Yes, they're affinity groups, but that's actually an argument against discrimination within the white sororities.

only if you insist on reading this article as “trashing” white sororities, or somehow insisting that black sororities be depicted as upholding white power structures. but absolutely a white student could write a paper on black sorority rush Tik Toc. I would love to be in Cottom’s class and do that.