University of Alabama - “ peak neo-antebellum white Southern culture” - NYT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Her point was the upholding of traditional power structures. I get that some of you have issues with other things she said, but her main point was that traditional sororities in the south uphold the white power structure with a side of patriarchy and diversity efforts would just be window dressing.

It is not deep. It is nothing to take personally. I say this as a blonde white woman who loves lulu and makeup and being tan and was in a sorority. This author isn't wrong, even if you don't like how she said it.

Nobody doubts there's a white patriarchy in Alabama. Or even that bottle blonds probably do better in the marriage stakes, money- and power-wise at least, than frumpy whites or minorities.

It's just that Cottom didn't even try to demonstrate that the white patriarchy is working through a few white sororities. To demonstrate this, Cottom needs to document discrimination that keeps blacks away from these alleged centers of power. But Cottom doesn't even allege discrimination, let alone try to document it with facts or even anecdotes. In fact any "discrimination" argument is undermined by the fact that most black women probably aren't interested in these white sororities.

Cottom also doesn't bother to articulate reasons for her "diversity would be window dressing" argument. Can we guess at what Cottom was getting at here? Because of conformity and low career ambitions among white sorority sisters (exclusively)?

Cottom contradicts the whole "power structures" thesis by pointing out, repeatedly, that lots of these women just want to find a husband. Even Cottom argues many of these white women don't want to take over the power structures themselves.

So I come back to the fact that this is a really incoherent piece. And this is why lots of us suspect that Cottom is just going after white women... because she can? Because Karening is accepted by many these days?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

Do you believe this? No, a white academic absolutely could not trash black sororities and other institutions. I'm in research, and this will never happen, especially in the NY Times.

But presumably anybody writing about black sororities would say many of the same things about conformity wrt behavior, makeup and dress. If Cottom's problem is with the conformity and MRS degrees, then the Black sororities are just as guilty. Yes, they're affinity groups, but that's actually an argument against discrimination within the white sororities.

Maybe when black sorority rush is all over Tiktok and has a big documentary made about it, she will write a column critiquing that.

Sure. I won't hold my breath.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

Do you believe this? No, a white academic absolutely could not trash black sororities and other institutions. I'm in research, and this will never happen, especially in the NY Times.

But presumably anybody writing about black sororities would say many of the same things about conformity wrt behavior, makeup and dress. If Cottom's problem is with the conformity and MRS degrees, then the Black sororities are just as guilty. Yes, they're affinity groups, but that's actually an argument against discrimination within the white sororities.

only if you insist on reading this article as “trashing” white sororities, or somehow insisting that black sororities be depicted as upholding white power structures. but absolutely a white student could write a paper on black sorority rush Tik Toc. I would love to be in Cottom’s class and do that.

Please. You know that would never happen and, if it did happen, the student would be run out of town.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

Well it should have been, FFS. Don't you think those issues are applicable to black sororities too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

I mean - the article is transparently about race. Says so on the tin. And I don't really think she's making an argument - she's a cultural critic, she's writing about culture.

If she was white, writing about black culture, you'd be outraged. Perhaps she should simply write about the culture she knows - her own. Which is what you Tressie defenders would say if the situation was reversed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Her point was the upholding of traditional power structures. I get that some of you have issues with other things she said, but her main point was that traditional sororities in the south uphold the white power structure with a side of patriarchy and diversity efforts would just be window dressing.

It is not deep. It is nothing to take personally. I say this as a blonde white woman who loves lulu and makeup and being tan and was in a sorority. This author isn't wrong, even if you don't like how she said it.

Replace "white" with "black" and the bolded would be true - had she managed to include black greek orgs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

You must be joking. Is this satire?
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

Do you believe this? No, a white academic absolutely could not trash black sororities and other institutions. I'm in research, and this will never happen, especially in the NY Times.

But presumably anybody writing about black sororities would say many of the same things about conformity wrt behavior, makeup and dress. If Cottom's problem is with the conformity and MRS degrees, then the Black sororities are just as guilty. Yes, they're affinity groups, but that's actually an argument against discrimination within the white sororities.

only if you insist on reading this article as “trashing” white sororities, or somehow insisting that black sororities be depicted as upholding white power structures. but absolutely a white student could write a paper on black sorority rush Tik Toc. I would love to be in Cottom’s class and do that.

I’m not the PP but this is delusional. In modern publishing, a white writer cannot write anything critical about Black organizations without risking their entire career. A student could write a fawning article, yes, that is true. But nothing remotely beyond surface-level or anything resembling critical analysis.

[Anonymous]

The argument about these wannabe housewives contributing to the white patriarchy doesn't make a lot of sense. It's not clear there's discrimination, it's not clear these women are rising to power anywhere, and black sororities are guilty of the same conformity.

So to me, this reads like more Karening. Sure, it's acceptable to trash white women for sending back the latte, wanting an e-bike, or indulging in almond-shaped nails and Coastal Grandma decorating schemes. These white sororities tick a lot of those boxes--the clean makeup and shiny hair that Cottom mocks, in particular.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Her point was the upholding of traditional power structures. I get that some of you have issues with other things she said, but her main point was that traditional sororities in the south uphold the white power structure with a side of patriarchy and diversity efforts would just be window dressing.

It is not deep. It is nothing to take personally. I say this as a blonde white woman who loves lulu and makeup and being tan and was in a sorority. This author isn't wrong, even if you don't like how she said it.

Nobody doubts there's a white patriarchy in Alabama. Or even that bottle blonds probably do better in the marriage stakes, money- and power-wise at least, than frumpy whites or minorities.

It's just that Cottom didn't even try to demonstrate that the white patriarchy is working through a few white sororities. To demonstrate this, Cottom needs to document discrimination that keeps blacks away from these alleged centers of power. But Cottom doesn't even allege discrimination, let alone try to document it with facts or even anecdotes. In fact any "discrimination" argument is undermined by the fact that most black women probably aren't interested in these white sororities.

Cottom also doesn't bother to articulate reasons for her "diversity would be window dressing" argument. Can we guess at what Cottom was getting at here? Because of conformity and low career ambitions among white sorority sisters (exclusively)?

Cottom contradicts the whole "power structures" thesis by pointing out, repeatedly, that lots of these women just want to find a husband. Even Cottom argues many of these white women don't want to take over the power structures themselves.

So I come back to the fact that this is a really incoherent piece. And this is why lots of us suspect that Cottom is just going after white women... because she can? Because Karening is accepted by many these days?

That's...part of the white power structure in the south.

As far as her lack of documentation as you describe it - this is not a scholarly or peer reviewed piece so it is left open to criticisms such as yours. That comes with this territory. That said, if you know this culture, well, then, IYKYK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

Do you believe this? No, a white academic absolutely could not trash black sororities and other institutions. I'm in research, and this will never happen, especially in the NY Times.

But presumably anybody writing about black sororities would say many of the same things about conformity wrt behavior, makeup and dress. If Cottom's problem is with the conformity and MRS degrees, then the Black sororities are just as guilty. Yes, they're affinity groups, but that's actually an argument against discrimination within the white sororities.

Maybe when black sorority rush is all over Tiktok and has a big documentary made about it, she will write a column critiquing that.

Doesn't take much googling to find this:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Her point was the upholding of traditional power structures. I get that some of you have issues with other things she said, but her main point was that traditional sororities in the south uphold the white power structure with a side of patriarchy and diversity efforts would just be window dressing.

It is not deep. It is nothing to take personally. I say this as a blonde white woman who loves lulu and makeup and being tan and was in a sorority. This author isn't wrong, even if you don't like how she said it.

Nobody doubts there's a white patriarchy in Alabama. Or even that bottle blonds probably do better in the marriage stakes, money- and power-wise at least, than frumpy whites or minorities.

It's just that Cottom didn't even try to demonstrate that the white patriarchy is working through a few white sororities. To demonstrate this, Cottom needs to document discrimination that keeps blacks away from these alleged centers of power. But Cottom doesn't even allege discrimination, let alone try to document it with facts or even anecdotes. In fact any "discrimination" argument is undermined by the fact that most black women probably aren't interested in these white sororities.

Cottom also doesn't bother to articulate reasons for her "diversity would be window dressing" argument. Can we guess at what Cottom was getting at here? Because of conformity and low career ambitions among white sorority sisters (exclusively)?

Cottom contradicts the whole "power structures" thesis by pointing out, repeatedly, that lots of these women just want to find a husband. Even Cottom argues many of these white women don't want to take over the power structures themselves.

So I come back to the fact that this is a really incoherent piece. And this is why lots of us suspect that Cottom is just going after white women... because she can? Because Karening is accepted by many these days?

That's...part of the white power structure in the south.

As far as her lack of documentation as you describe it - this is not a scholarly or peer reviewed piece so it is left open to criticisms such as yours. That comes with this territory. That said, if you know this culture, well, then, IYKYK.

Oh look, more insinuations that are meant to substitute for facts and data.

And how exactly does "marrying into power"--assuming 25% of them actually "achieve" this--perpetuate the white patriarchy? Because the kids remain caucasian? Because white sororities sisters support their men better than white frumps or minority women? What exactly are you saying here?

[Anonymous]

She has clearly hit a nerve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Her point was the upholding of traditional power structures. I get that some of you have issues with other things she said, but her main point was that traditional sororities in the south uphold the white power structure with a side of patriarchy and diversity efforts would just be window dressing.

It is not deep. It is nothing to take personally. I say this as a blonde white woman who loves lulu and makeup and being tan and was in a sorority. This author isn't wrong, even if you don't like how she said it.

You say her main point is that traditional sororities uphold the white power structure, but she herself says the sorority doesn't have the power to confer, they just "brand." Try as I might to find one, I don't see an actual argument in the article explaining how sororities at Alabama "uphold" or even "brand" white power ("white power" isn't used in the essay, much less defined). It's more like a narrative that I would expect to be shared between people who have already decided they simply don't like predominantly white sororities. I'm not a fan or sororities or fraternities. I advised my kids to avoid them if they ended up at schools with them because of the time drain; they ended up at schools that don't even have them. But I don't fault people for wanting to join them if that's their thing, and I haven't read a clear description of how they are an instrument of white power. It's ironic she mentions Faulkner, cause the whole thing just comes off as a bunch of sound and fury to me. The essay might have more of the desired impact if it talked in objective and quantifiable terms about how Black rushees are being turned away at a higher rate than white ones and how belonging to those same sororities impacts "power" outcome in some measurable way. An anecdote about a biracial rushee getting less attention than her (already initiated??) sisters is just an anecdote. I would've thought an essay making such bold claims from a PhD in social science would be rooted in hard statistics, not arm-wavy narration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The U of Alabama is almost the opposite of the kind of school our kids are looking for, but I felt more disappointed in the NYT than anything else after reading that article. What's the point? School officials should require their sororities practice affirmative action? Interesting that the percentage of Black students at Alabama is about 30% higher than at the author's current institution (11 vs 8.5%).

I think the problem is that there's no clear point. Is Cottom arguing that the Greeks should better integrate, or that they should be shut down completely? She concludes by saying that integration seems pointless and the Greek system isn't salvageable. If that's her point, then why does she focus exclusively on White sororities--ignoring all the White fraternities and also ignoring all the hazing and conformity in dress and behavior that occurs equally in Black sororities and fraternities? Meanwhile, suspicion that she just wants to go after the White girls is spurred her doubling down on mocking their hair, makeup and career choices. I wonder how long it took her to bang out such an unfocussed screed.

Exactly. +100
I might have even agreed with some of her points had she managed to include ALL Greek orgs. Instead, she very pointedly leaves out black sororities and fraternities. So one can easily draw the conclusion that she is incredibly racist.

FFS... the article is about the intersection between whiteness, gender, and class and sororities. It wasn't about ALL greek orgs.

DP. Then it does come back to pp's point about what would happen if a White academic wrote about conformity and hazing in Black sororities. I mean, I didn't want to go there, and I was leaning into Cottom's (admittedly incoherent and poorly reasoned) argument that hair dye in a couple of White sororities means that we should disband the entire Greek system. But you're making pp's point about racism and misogyny for them.

A white academic could write about black institutions. And obviously they are not equivalents.

Do you believe this? No, a white academic absolutely could not trash black sororities and other institutions. I'm in research, and this will never happen, especially in the NY Times.

But presumably anybody writing about black sororities would say many of the same things about conformity wrt behavior, makeup and dress. If Cottom's problem is with the conformity and MRS degrees, then the Black sororities are just as guilty. Yes, they're affinity groups, but that's actually an argument against discrimination within the white sororities.

only if you insist on reading this article as “trashing” white sororities, or somehow insisting that black sororities be depicted as upholding white power structures. but absolutely a white student could write a paper on black sorority rush Tik Toc. I would love to be in Cottom’s class and do that.

DP. Just stop the gaslighting. We are all WELL AWARE that a white student, academic, whatever - could never in a million years write a critical paper about black greek life, or black people in any capacity. The author of that piece would cause national hysteria and outrage and you know it. There would be marches and vitriol from the left. Get real.