What happened to this California family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder where those of y’all portraying this woman as an isolated depressed party girl into weird and edgy things like Burning Man and integral counseling live. I live on the west coast now after 15 years in DC and nothing about this woman’s life as described factually sounds like a red flag to me. Minus the deaths, this could describe a number of people I know. Hiring cleaners and a nanny are also super common among the wealthy in the United States pretty much everywhere. None of the things described are culturally out of context for this family, and none of them are giant red flags about murder-suicide. The only way y’all can make the connection between known facts about the case and your interpretations are to add a lot of subjective details around the facts. It’s absolutely fine to speculate. Just maybe try to remember that you ARE speculating.

Y’all are also reaching about her unhappiness outside the city. I’m sure that applies to some people, but I’d imagine an equal number of people are pleased about their changed circumstances. I know I was relieved when we moved to a place with a slower pace.

This! I was the PP many many pages ago who said people are grasping at straws who don’t know anything about how mundane things like pot, mushrooms, Burning Man, integral psychology, yoga are. Also the level of wealth in the SF tech scene is staggering. Signed, former SF resident married to a tech guy

Here on the east coast, yoga is a "gateway drug" to alternative medicine. From there, it's just a few steps to suicide apparently.

I’m the original PP, and while I love DC, it is fairly undeniable that it is a rather buttoned up town (at least the UMC white parts - other communities have other things going on). Fashion is conservative. Logic and rationality are viewed as superior to “vibes.” I still personally think a lot of it is more woo than not, but the vegan organic yoga teacher turned counselor in some non-mainstream therapy discipline is certainly a lot more normalized out west than back east.

To say nothing of the lawyers-turned-SAHM with BigLaw spouses who could be described in exactly the same way.

[Anonymous]

PP. If you are making a lot of negative assumptions about Ellen specifically, why?

I wonder if racist or/and sexist ideas are playing a role in this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder where those of y’all portraying this woman as an isolated depressed party girl into weird and edgy things like Burning Man and integral counseling live. I live on the west coast now after 15 years in DC and nothing about this woman’s life as described factually sounds like a red flag to me. Minus the deaths, this could describe a number of people I know. Hiring cleaners and a nanny are also super common among the wealthy in the United States pretty much everywhere. None of the things described are culturally out of context for this family, and none of them are giant red flags about murder-suicide. The only way y’all can make the connection between known facts about the case and your interpretations are to add a lot of subjective details around the facts. It’s absolutely fine to speculate. Just maybe try to remember that you ARE speculating.

Y’all are also reaching about her unhappiness outside the city. I’m sure that applies to some people, but I’d imagine an equal number of people are pleased about their changed circumstances. I know I was relieved when we moved to a place with a slower pace.

This! I was the PP many many pages ago who said people are grasping at straws who don’t know anything about how mundane things like pot, mushrooms, Burning Man, integral psychology, yoga are. Also the level of wealth in the SF tech scene is staggering. Signed, former SF resident married to a tech guy

CA is no dif’ than any other state as far as the people. You only think you are cooler. They led a non conventional life. Nothing wrong with that. The wrong is MS or FA.
Signed, been all over and around more than one block.

I wonder what our poster who asserted Ellen slept all day was basing that on? Creative writing? Or ???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder where those of y’all portraying this woman as an isolated depressed party girl into weird and edgy things like Burning Man and integral counseling live. I live on the west coast now after 15 years in DC and nothing about this woman’s life as described factually sounds like a red flag to me. Minus the deaths, this could describe a number of people I know. Hiring cleaners and a nanny are also super common among the wealthy in the United States pretty much everywhere. None of the things described are culturally out of context for this family, and none of them are giant red flags about murder-suicide. The only way y’all can make the connection between known facts about the case and your interpretations are to add a lot of subjective details around the facts. It’s absolutely fine to speculate. Just maybe try to remember that you ARE speculating.

Y’all are also reaching about her unhappiness outside the city. I’m sure that applies to some people, but I’d imagine an equal number of people are pleased about their changed circumstances. I know I was relieved when we moved to a place with a slower pace.

This! I was the PP many many pages ago who said people are grasping at straws who don’t know anything about how mundane things like pot, mushrooms, Burning Man, integral psychology, yoga are. Also the level of wealth in the SF tech scene is staggering. Signed, former SF resident married to a tech guy

CA is no dif’ than any other state as far as the people. You only think you are cooler. They led a non conventional life. Nothing wrong with that. The wrong is MS or FA.
Signed, been all over and around more than one block.

I wonder what our poster who asserted Ellen slept all day was basing that on? Creative writing? Or ???

I think they jumped to conclusions based on the fact that she did not have a full-time job. Clearly there is no proof to support that. And there would be no point to our knowing that, anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She was isolated because they lived in a forest, 20 miles from the nearest town, the one with the whopping population of 1,800.

Her friends were in the city and I do not think many if any would have had babies at 30. She was going to school remotely. Jon had prior ties to Mariopsa but she did not. The median age in the small town is in the 50s, Jon was not far off but Ellen was only 30. How many new moms were there for her to befriend?

Coming and going is relative when you are in the middle of nowhere.

I was looking for a way to message you, I guess that’s not possible.

Do you know if anyone had contact with this family on Saturday?
Scanning back through posts I noted one inquiring if the kid was perhaps DOA to the forest. Could the child have died from an in home accident and J & E freaked?

20 miles is far from town, I think. Where they lived would be pitch black at night, I’d be terrified.

You city folk are funny. It's rarely pitch black, even in the country.

Actually it is - signed someone with a country house. The stars aren’t that bright and no ambient lighting or direct lighting makes everything five feet in front of you look like the abyss.

I spent the 11 years on a rural farm growing up. The moon so bright most nights it will cast shadows. It's only dark in overgrown forests.

They lived in a forest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She was isolated because they lived in a forest, 20 miles from the nearest town, the one with the whopping population of 1,800.

Her friends were in the city and I do not think many if any would have had babies at 30. She was going to school remotely. Jon had prior ties to Mariopsa but she did not. The median age in the small town is in the 50s, Jon was not far off but Ellen was only 30. How many new moms were there for her to befriend?

Coming and going is relative when you are in the middle of nowhere.

I was looking for a way to message you, I guess that’s not possible.

Do you know if anyone had contact with this family on Saturday?
Scanning back through posts I noted one inquiring if the kid was perhaps DOA to the forest. Could the child have died from an in home accident and J & E freaked?

20 miles is far from town, I think. Where they lived would be pitch black at night, I’d be terrified.

You city folk are funny. It's rarely pitch black, even in the country.

Actually it is - signed someone with a country house. The stars aren’t that bright and no ambient lighting or direct lighting makes everything five feet in front of you look like the abyss.

I spent the 11 years on a rural farm growing up. The moon so bright most nights it will cast shadows. It's only dark in overgrown forests.

You may have forgotten but most nights are not a full moon and many are cloudy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder where those of y’all portraying this woman as an isolated depressed party girl into weird and edgy things like Burning Man and integral counseling live. I live on the west coast now after 15 years in DC and nothing about this woman’s life as described factually sounds like a red flag to me. Minus the deaths, this could describe a number of people I know. Hiring cleaners and a nanny are also super common among the wealthy in the United States pretty much everywhere. None of the things described are culturally out of context for this family, and none of them are giant red flags about murder-suicide. The only way y’all can make the connection between known facts about the case and your interpretations are to add a lot of subjective details around the facts. It’s absolutely fine to speculate. Just maybe try to remember that you ARE speculating.

Y’all are also reaching about her unhappiness outside the city. I’m sure that applies to some people, but I’d imagine an equal number of people are pleased about their changed circumstances. I know I was relieved when we moved to a place with a slower pace.

+1. It sounds like a few deranged childless spinsters have found this thread on an Urban Moms and Dads forum. Being a mother is the furthest thing from "isolating". OMG, no random moms to socialize with about the weather and no restaurants = family suicide!

This family sounds totally boring and normal. Zero red flags. Burning Man is more dork boomer cringe than edgy.

[Anonymous]

Mariposa was 20 miles away and it does not even have a stoplight. It was a radical change in lifestyle from SF and being active in the club and festival scene with lots of adventure travel. Which is not to say it wasn't something they both agreed upon, just that it is a huge adjustment, as is a new marriage, as is parenthood. Given how old the population skews in that area it is unlikely that there were many young moms or new moms at all. We hung out with a lot of other families of babies when my first was born, it was nice having the social support as we navigated that first year. Covid is another huge stressor in the past year, imposing additional isolation and perhaps it was a factor in deciding to leave the city. It was a lot.

Given how short their lives turned out to be, I hope the last year was a happy one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder where those of y’all portraying this woman as an isolated depressed party girl into weird and edgy things like Burning Man and integral counseling live. I live on the west coast now after 15 years in DC and nothing about this woman’s life as described factually sounds like a red flag to me. Minus the deaths, this could describe a number of people I know. Hiring cleaners and a nanny are also super common among the wealthy in the United States pretty much everywhere. None of the things described are culturally out of context for this family, and none of them are giant red flags about murder-suicide. The only way y’all can make the connection between known facts about the case and your interpretations are to add a lot of subjective details around the facts. It’s absolutely fine to speculate. Just maybe try to remember that you ARE speculating.

Y’all are also reaching about her unhappiness outside the city. I’m sure that applies to some people, but I’d imagine an equal number of people are pleased about their changed circumstances. I know I was relieved when we moved to a place with a slower pace.

Exactly. Wth is up with the nasty post about her employing a dog walker as if that implies something horrible about her? I know lots of people who employ dog walkers and not all of them work out of their home. I know lots of people seriously into different types of yoga and spirituality. These posters are just provincial idiots.

I also don't work while my dh does and have employed a dog walker have taken many yoga classes and never wanted to kill my family or anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come on. This was the perfect all American family. Good looking couple, multiple homes, dad was brilliant, mom was the absolute best. She tried to save her family, running towards the car in the blazing sun, she probably even carried the dog part way (😂).

Disregard their heavy debt load, the fact mom did not want kids and hated Mariposa.

Did they take HC trail or HC road, could they read maps? How many ounces did their bladder hold? Was the carrier paisley, solid or floral print? Did they swim? Did they drink river water? These are the important things. And I bet LE needs our help. Wonder if they thought to check shoes? Think they inventoried the backpack? Should we email LE? The sheriff knows it was hot I assume? Why didn’t LE put out a public picture of the baby carrier asking if anyone had seen it (dumb post of year award).
Can’t wait for my “tried to tell ya, moment.”

Re: the illness, if it’s TBI it can be issues with concentration, memory, tasking, executive function, etc. The kind of things that make some jobs difficult but would not necessarily prevent physical activity.

I haven't seen hard evidence of this but I posted before she seemed like a free spirit who as a pretty young mom for a city girl who had a very fast courtship with a fun adventurer 15 years older who made her a wife in the middle of nowhere with a small, needy baby. I'd put money on this being an unplanned/wanted (by her) pregnancy and some severe depression living in the middle of nowhere. DCUM can skew conservative in some ways where she should be lucky to have a high earner husband and isn't that young but....idk. I don't buy it.

She did post something odd on IG on one of the prenatal yoga posts, something to the effect of "Not all moms love their babies" or similar. "Anyone else recall that? The baby looked very small and thin when born, wonder if there were issues with the pregnancy or if she was an avowed vegan during it?

Being so isolated, 20 miles from a town of 1,800 would be a lot for anyone, but it was a total 180 for her. Had to be hard. And I did get the sense that a lot of his attention was on the baby and she may have missed it, all the "My Jonny" posts and all, she seemed needy. His first wife is said to be from Mariposa, wonder if that was an issue for her too? So many huge life adjustments in such a short time while isolated from former support networks.

I never could suss out what illness would prevent corporate work but allow pregnancy, adventure travel and strenuous hikes and trips to the desert?

Regardless, I don't think we are going to get some smoking gun finding. The bodies being outside for days and the heat may have impacted toxicology and autopsy findings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She was isolated because they lived in a forest, 20 miles from the nearest town, the one with the whopping population of 1,800.

Her friends were in the city and I do not think many if any would have had babies at 30. She was going to school remotely. Jon had prior ties to Mariopsa but she did not. The median age in the small town is in the 50s, Jon was not far off but Ellen was only 30. How many new moms were there for her to befriend?

Coming and going is relative when you are in the middle of nowhere.

Also she was isolated because PANDEMIC!!!

You do realize that San Fran was basically locked down in 2020 and COVID #s we’re terrible in CA. Isolation in a small town away from others when pregnant/with an infant makes complete sense. She would not have been socializing in SF because everything was closed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She was isolated because they lived in a forest, 20 miles from the nearest town, the one with the whopping population of 1,800.

Her friends were in the city and I do not think many if any would have had babies at 30. She was going to school remotely. Jon had prior ties to Mariopsa but she did not. The median age in the small town is in the 50s, Jon was not far off but Ellen was only 30. How many new moms were there for her to befriend?

Coming and going is relative when you are in the middle of nowhere.

I was looking for a way to message you, I guess that’s not possible.

Do you know if anyone had contact with this family on Saturday?
Scanning back through posts I noted one inquiring if the kid was perhaps DOA to the forest. Could the child have died from an in home accident and J & E freaked?

20 miles is far from town, I think. Where they lived would be pitch black at night, I’d be terrified.

I think the idea that the baby died on Saturday and they staged this on Sunday seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Jon grew up in a more rural area and had been buying and and visiting Mariposa for years.

If it turned out not to be a great fit for Ellen she was stuck.

It still could have been accidental. And I think the likelihood of any other finding without significant tox evidence is low and that evidence would be impacted by the time in the heat on the trail for days prior to removal of the bodies on Wednesday. So regardless of what happened, we are unlikely to get some lurid finding.

I agree. About as likely as an entire family dying from HS after carrying a dog, kid, pack, etc.

When it's 109+ with no shade and there is a very steep and long climb of almost 2,000 feet to get out of Devil's Gulch...it could tax any adult. And pausing to aid someone stricken, whether the dog, baby or Jon found sitting, could run out the clock for the other adult's ability to function in and survive the heat. Once the brain starts to heat up organs begin to shut down. https://www.outsideonline.com/health/wellness/heat-stroke-signs-symptoms/#:~:text=What%20It%20Feels%20Like%20to%20Die%20from%20Heatstroke,starts.%20Heatstroke%20kills%20thousands%20of%20people%20every%20year.

The question really is, why were they out there in that terrain in that heat? A misjudgment or intentional? The heat and "aggressive" trail play a role either way. And we may never know the answer to that question. With the high heat and bodies on the trail until Wednesday, possible findings would be impacted.

The "whole family" is just dramatic phrasing. The dog was tethered and the baby was in a pack. Could 2 adults be overcome by heat on a steep uphill climb in 109+ degree weather, with a 30 lb pack and possibly carrying a midsized dog? Of course. With no shade it is not unlikely at all.

Yes. This seems the most logical. The father died after he sat down and the mother died after spending too much time in the baking sun attending to her husband and baby and then collapsed when trying to walk and get help. She left the baby sitting in the carrier because she was too weak or confused to get the baby on her back and she stumbled, collapsed, and died from heat stroke also.

[Anonymous]

That does seem a likely scenario, PP.

[Anonymous]

Which leaves the question of why were they out in those conditions? Mistake or intentional?

[Anonymous]

It’s been just about 6 weeks since the deaths. Toxicology still not done?