Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People in Gaza can turn over all the Hamas fighters; they choose not to as those people are their family.

To whom?

Holding white flags and surrendering to the IDF hasn’t proven a safe option.

Says who? I need a real independent witness that I can trust, such as a CIA agent or State Department officer, to come here and tell me what they saw with their own eyes.

Says the IDF when three Israeli hostages approached them shirtless and with a
white flag?

“The three young hostages, shirtless and holding the makeshift white flag, exited a nearby building, the Israeli military said, citing a preliminary investigation. One of the Israeli soldiers, mistaking them for a threat, opened fire, killing two of them and wounding the third, according to the military.

The third hostage fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was fatally shot, the military said.”

And you think some random Gazans would fare better?

When you are in a war zone where terrorists use their horrific tactics, I would not trust a white flag. I would be yelling at the top of my lungs that I am a Jew! Plus, Israel admitted doing this; what is it within you that doesn't understand the brutality of war? If you think someone will shoot you, what would you do?

This is why I don’t think Gazans are going to be turning their family members in to the IDF even if they want to— it’s just asking for everyone in the story to be killed.

Hence, the issue at hand, which you pointed out, is that you seem unaware of your logic and unable to follow what your brain is telling you. What is the difference between innocent Gazans and Hamas? If you are in Hitler's circle, how innocent were you?

You need to read threads in their entirety.

Someone posited that Gazans should just “turn in” their Hamas relatives. As though there is a professional authority to whom they could do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have huge issues with Israel killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians as a response to the horrible act on 10/7. Deal with it, I really do not care what you think of me.

Where was this outrage over the deaths of civilians in Syria, in Yemen, in South Sudan? Didn't fit your personal truth? Oh yeah, and it didn't involve the Jews. But carry on internet person.

Beacause MY US tax dollars are funding the murder of innocent children by the thousand. That’s why. stop with the antisemite victim card.

Here's what my best friend told me today:

1) Biden, despite losing support from young progressives, CANNOT denounce Israel because Israel is our only strategic partner in the Mideast. He is completely between a rock and a hard place, but this is one move Biden is completely constrained from doing.

2) Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, slaughtering the Palestinians in a gigantic land grab.

I don't know what to think. I'm a huge supporter of Israel, yet I don't want my tax dollars spent on arms that Israel will use to kill innocent Palestinian children who had nothing to do with Oct. 7.

It seems to me that unless my best friend is correct that this is genocide and a huge land grab on Israel's part, there is no end game here. Israel has no idea where it's going other than attacking Palestinians with no end in sight as revenge for the atrocities of Oct. 7.

Is my friend right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People in Gaza can turn over all the Hamas fighters; they choose not to as those people are their family.

To whom?

Holding white flags and surrendering to the IDF hasn’t proven a safe option.

Says who? I need a real independent witness that I can trust, such as a CIA agent or State Department officer, to come here and tell me what they saw with their own eyes.

Says the IDF when three Israeli hostages approached them shirtless and with a
white flag?

“The three young hostages, shirtless and holding the makeshift white flag, exited a nearby building, the Israeli military said, citing a preliminary investigation. One of the Israeli soldiers, mistaking them for a threat, opened fire, killing two of them and wounding the third, according to the military.

The third hostage fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was fatally shot, the military said.”

And you think some random Gazans would fare better?

When you are in a war zone where terrorists use their horrific tactics, I would not trust a white flag. I would be yelling at the top of my lungs that I am a Jew! Plus, Israel admitted doing this; what is it within you that doesn't understand the brutality of war? If you think someone will shoot you, what would you do?

This is why I don’t think Gazans are going to be turning their family members in to the IDF even if they want to— it’s just asking for everyone in the story to be killed.

Hence, the issue at hand, which you pointed out, is that you seem unaware of your logic and unable to follow what your brain is telling you. What is the difference between innocent Gazans and Hamas? If you are in Hitler's circle, how innocent were you?

You need to read threads in their entirety.

Someone posited that Gazans should just “turn in” their Hamas relatives. As though there is a professional authority to whom they could do so.

So, if every Muslim family in Gaza has a family member who is a Hamas fighter, what does that make those families? Do I have to lead you every step to the logical conclusion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People in Gaza can turn over all the Hamas fighters; they choose not to as those people are their family.

To whom?

Holding white flags and surrendering to the IDF hasn’t proven a safe option.

Says who? I need a real independent witness that I can trust, such as a CIA agent or State Department officer, to come here and tell me what they saw with their own eyes.

Says the IDF when three Israeli hostages approached them shirtless and with a
white flag?

“The three young hostages, shirtless and holding the makeshift white flag, exited a nearby building, the Israeli military said, citing a preliminary investigation. One of the Israeli soldiers, mistaking them for a threat, opened fire, killing two of them and wounding the third, according to the military.

The third hostage fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was fatally shot, the military said.”

And you think some random Gazans would fare better?

When you are in a war zone where terrorists use their horrific tactics, I would not trust a white flag. I would be yelling at the top of my lungs that I am a Jew! Plus, Israel admitted doing this; what is it within you that doesn't understand the brutality of war? If you think someone will shoot you, what would you do?

This is why I don’t think Gazans are going to be turning their family members in to the IDF even if they want to— it’s just asking for everyone in the story to be killed.

Hence, the issue at hand, which you pointed out, is that you seem unaware of your logic and unable to follow what your brain is telling you. What is the difference between innocent Gazans and Hamas? If you are in Hitler's circle, how innocent were you?

You need to read threads in their entirety.

Someone posited that Gazans should just “turn in” their Hamas relatives. As though there is a professional authority to whom they could do so.

So, if every Muslim family in Gaza has a family member who is a Hamas fighter, what does that make those families? Do I have to lead you every step to the logical conclusion?

Who said every Muslim family in Gaza has a Hamas fighter? You have made that up on your own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have huge issues with Israel killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians as a response to the horrible act on 10/7. Deal with it, I really do not care what you think of me.

Where was this outrage over the deaths of civilians in Syria, in Yemen, in South Sudan? Didn't fit your personal truth? Oh yeah, and it didn't involve the Jews. But carry on internet person.

Beacause MY US tax dollars are funding the murder of innocent children by the thousand. That’s why. stop with the antisemite victim card.

Here's what my best friend told me today:

1) Biden, despite losing support from young progressives, CANNOT denounce Israel because Israel is our only strategic partner in the Mideast. He is completely between a rock and a hard place, but this is one move Biden is completely constrained from doing.

2) Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, slaughtering the Palestinians in a gigantic land grab.

I don't know what to think. I'm a huge supporter of Israel, yet I don't want my tax dollars spent on arms that Israel will use to kill innocent Palestinian children who had nothing to do with Oct. 7.

It seems to me that unless my best friend is correct that this is genocide and a huge land grab on Israel's part, there is no end game here. Israel has no idea where it's going other than attacking Palestinians with no end in sight as revenge for the atrocities of Oct. 7.

Is my friend right?

You need new friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It amazes me how stupid people here are. Well, you all bought into Hamas propaganda, like many in Russia are buying into Putin's propaganda. Putin, the savior of Europe from Nazis! Evil Russia, evil Israel, you are completely lacking a single brain cell.

Ironic because Bibi and the Israeli government have been matching Putin word from word.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People in Gaza can turn over all the Hamas fighters; they choose not to as those people are their family.

To whom?

Holding white flags and surrendering to the IDF hasn’t proven a safe option.

Says who? I need a real independent witness that I can trust, such as a CIA agent or State Department officer, to come here and tell me what they saw with their own eyes.

That's what happened to the Israeli hostages. The IDF shot and killed three hostages that had escaped and were waving a white flag while shirtless. It's not in dispute.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People in Gaza can turn over all the Hamas fighters; they choose not to as those people are their family.

To whom?

Holding white flags and surrendering to the IDF hasn’t proven a safe option.

Says who? I need a real independent witness that I can trust, such as a CIA agent or State Department officer, to come here and tell me what they saw with their own eyes.

Says the IDF when three Israeli hostages approached them shirtless and with a
white flag?

“The three young hostages, shirtless and holding the makeshift white flag, exited a nearby building, the Israeli military said, citing a preliminary investigation. One of the Israeli soldiers, mistaking them for a threat, opened fire, killing two of them and wounding the third, according to the military.

The third hostage fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was fatally shot, the military said.”

And you think some random Gazans would fare better?

When you are in a war zone where terrorists use their horrific tactics, I would not trust a white flag. I would be yelling at the top of my lungs that I am a Jew! Plus, Israel admitted doing this; what is it within you that doesn't understand the brutality of war? If you think someone will shoot you, what would you do?

That's what Castelman, the hero that stopped a terrorost attack in Jerusalem, did. He too was shot dead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see the New York Times has finally belatedly acknowledged that Hamas used horrific sexual violence against Israeli women on 10/7, though I assume that does not matter to the Hamas supporters here who denied the rapes occurred because there weren’t rape kits or whatever, just extremely graphic and extremely obvious videos.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

I assume HRW and UN Women and all those supposed human rights organizations are still silent on the matter of Israeli women being sexually tortured by Hamas, but my standards for them are so low now that it’s not a surprise.

Israel had never sent UN Women the notification needed for them to open an investigation. Which makes the complaints just another bad faith accusation.

This is surely a comment motivated by the best, purest faith.

It is. The lack of response from UN Women, which has a whole program specifically focused on the horrors of sexual violence in war, was very disturbing. That is until it turned out that Israel never took the basic steps to trigger an investigation and their hands were tied. The propaganda war against the UN by Israel is bad for the world. That they have undertaken, at least part of, it in bad faith is a shame.

To be clear, I am talking about the Government of Israel and not the regular people that amplify these messages. While we wouldn't know about the bureaucratic procedures of obscure UN agencies the Israeli Mission to the UN would.

UN Women regularly issues tweets, statements, etc. condemning sexual violence against women worldwide without the targets having triggered or requested an investigation. You of course know this. But in this case, the organization has been silent, and we all know why. You are just defending overt antisemitism from a corrupt organization.

I’m not Jewish or remotely tied to Israel and am critical of many aspects of the Israeli response, but I also think that the silence from the UN Women is inexcusable. I’ve certainly lost any faith I used to have in the UN. Their silence in the face of the sexual torture faced by the 10/7 victims is appalling, full stop.

No. That's not true. I actually know the people there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
UN Women regularly issues tweets, statements, etc. condemning sexual violence against women worldwide without the targets having triggered or requested an investigation. You of course know this. But in this case, the organization has been silent, and we all know why. You are just defending overt antisemitism from a corrupt organization.

I’m not Jewish or remotely tied to Israel and am critical of many aspects of the Israeli response, but I also think that the silence from the UN Women is inexcusable. I’ve certainly lost any faith I used to have in the UN. Their silence in the face of the sexual torture faced by the 10/7 victims is appalling, full stop.

No. That's not true. I actually know the people there.

And what is their official stance on 10/7 atrocities?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see the New York Times has finally belatedly acknowledged that Hamas used horrific sexual violence against Israeli women on 10/7, though I assume that does not matter to the Hamas supporters here who denied the rapes occurred because there weren’t rape kits or whatever, just extremely graphic and extremely obvious videos.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

I assume HRW and UN Women and all those supposed human rights organizations are still silent on the matter of Israeli women being sexually tortured by Hamas, but my standards for them are so low now that it’s not a surprise.

Israel had never sent UN Women the notification needed for them to open an investigation. Which makes the complaints just another bad faith accusation.

This is surely a comment motivated by the best, purest faith.

It is. The lack of response from UN Women, which has a whole program specifically focused on the horrors of sexual violence in war, was very disturbing. That is until it turned out that Israel never took the basic steps to trigger an investigation and their hands were tied. The propaganda war against the UN by Israel is bad for the world. That they have undertaken, at least part of, it in bad faith is a shame.

To be clear, I am talking about the Government of Israel and not the regular people that amplify these messages. While we wouldn't know about the bureaucratic procedures of obscure UN agencies the Israeli Mission to the UN would.

UN Women regularly issues tweets, statements, etc. condemning sexual violence against women worldwide without the targets having triggered or requested an investigation. You of course know this. But in this case, the organization has been silent, and we all know why. You are just defending overt antisemitism from a corrupt organization.

I’m not Jewish or remotely tied to Israel and am critical of many aspects of the Israeli response, but I also think that the silence from the UN Women is inexcusable. I’ve certainly lost any faith I used to have in the UN. Their silence in the face of the sexual torture faced by the 10/7 victims is appalling, full stop.

No. That's not true. I actually know the people there.

“The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.

The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?mwgrp=c-mbar&unlocked_article_code=1.Jk0.pz2_.1uF1rWfzPtEo&hpgrp=ar-abar&smid=url-share

Free Palestine, right?

[Anonymous]

No, Israelis aren’t committing genocide. They have offered a two state solution and a ceasefire unless Hamas gives back the hostages. Hamas is hiding within the Palestinian population and using its own people as human shields. Israelis are definitely killing some innocents but it is not genocide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, Israelis aren’t committing genocide. They have offered a two state solution and a ceasefire unless Hamas gives back the hostages. Hamas is hiding within the Palestinian population and using its own people as human shields. Israelis are definitely killing some innocents but it is not genocide.

Where is this Israeli proposal hiding?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there a difference between Hamas and Palestinians? If the majority is against Hamas, they can easily remove them from leadership positions. They can easily take them out; I have yet to hear an escaped Palestinian say how they hate Hamas.

So you believe collective punishment is warranted then. That"s a horrifying position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over a hundred people were killed on Sunday in a strike on a residential neighborhood in Gaza. Israel admits they made a mistake:


The extensive damage caused by Israel's airstrike on the Maghazi refugee camp in Gaza on Sunday night was a mistake, according to an IDF military official who spoke to KAN news on Thursday morning.

The official told KAN that, following an internal IAF investigation, it came out that the type of weaponry used did not match the nature of the mission. As a result, there was extensive collateral damage that did not need to occur and could have been avoided if the correct weaponry had been used.

Dozens of innocent civilians were killed in this strike, KAN said, adding a report that the IDF had expressed regret over the incident.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/death-toll-from-israeli-airstrike-in-central-gaza-rises-to-106-palestinian-officials-say
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779836

My grandfather was in the US Air Force in 1944. They were assigned to bomb a Japanese weapons depot in New Guinea. One of their own planes sent its payload at the wrong time and my grandfather's plane was caught in the explosion. Everyone onboard was killed instantly.

My mother was three months old. He never met her. His family fell apart after his death.

This story is nothing compared to what other families have faced then and now, but I mention it because it taught me one lesson early, and perhaps it's one some of you need to hear: war is messy and casual and cruel. A lot of victorious noble deaths are anything but. War isn't sane. Bullets and bombs don't only hit bad people.

This is true. It’s why states must be responsible in the use of force. It means you only aim those bullets and drop those bombs at the bad people. Because if you can’t or won’t make that distinction, you are in fact “the bad people”.

Unfortunately, we don't yet make bullets and bombs with their own moral compasses.

I don't think you understand because you're not willing to understand, that Hamas isn't going to just stop. Japan wasn't going to stop. Germany wasn't going to stop. In general, someone fighting on the losing side of a war has very little TO lose. That's why, again, your simplistic armchair assessments aren't useful. You're not on the ground. Every piece of news you get is filtered through bias from one side or the other. We won't know the true extent of the tragedies occurring here for years, maybe decades. And a lot of those tragedies will be like the ones that played out in my family--for the want of one person the whole thing falls apart. It's heartbreaking. You have to be fully hardened to one side or the other not to see that.

People are doing what they can in a very messed up situation. On the ground, it's just about survival. In government chambers, it's some kind of brutal calculus: their lives or us.

I think war is a lot easier when you see it in terms like good versus evil, but unfortunately this war is more like, because of a few very manichean people on both sides, a lot of innocents suffer. Will those people ever have an accounting? Well, one hopes.

Oh I 100% understand Hamas will not voluntarily stop.

I also understand that most of Hamas is located in these storied tunnels. Not apartment buildings. Not hospitals. So when we drop the bombs and aim the bullets at hospitals and apartment building knowing that *most* of the people harmed, as on Christmas Eve, will
Not be Hamas, we are showing ourselves as the bad guys.

Is there some method I'm not aware of where you can implode tunnels and not having the buildings above them be affected?

Yes— first, unlike Christmas Eve, you target the correct buildings.

And not relying on aerial bombardment which doesn’t seem to be destroying these tunnels (see above on Hamas leadership still doing fine…) seems appropriate at this stage.

I don't think you understand how buildings work. You can collapse from both above and below. I also don't think you, or I, have enough information about what happened to make an assessment of its effectiveness. You have a collection of opinions and some chaotic first-hand accounts. And you have an opinion you decided already: Israel is in the wrong.

I think Israel’s conduct is wrong. I think they are not in the wrong for retaliating for October 7. I think they had a huge amount of international support which they have since lost by indiscriminately killing civilians. After October 7th I supported Israel’s right to respond and hoped they would do so in a surgical and devastating way. I was disappointed.

If Israel was conducting themselves as they did after 1972, they would have my support and, I imagine, the support of the international community, even though there were civilian casualties in that instance as well.

But that was the point of the Hamas massacres.

This is the most right wing government in the history of Israel. Hamas knew very well how Israel would respond to mass executions, the brutal torture of women, kidnapping babies, young women, and the elderly, and recording all of it. A bunch of lefty kibbutzers and very young music festival attendees for goodness sake.

And what Hamas did is unforgivable.

I made the terrible mistake of watching that footage when it was still up on reddit and X/twitter. The sadism is extreme. Do not recommend. It scars the soul.

But when you've seen Hamas take a dull shovel and spend twenty minutes decapitating some poor man in his home, yeah, well, your justice goes out the window. Not to mention all the brutalized women. The blood. The brutality.

Feel bad for the kids in Gaza.

I do not for the adults in Gaza though.

This is what they chose. You do that kind of thing. Reap the whirlwind

Another believer in collective punishment here. Disgusting.