Can we stop referring to households making $200 or 300K a year as "middle class"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has been beaten to death. People in DC who make over $150k believe that that money should buy you certain things. It should buy you a house with an easy commute, good school district, ability to save for retirement and perhaps a vacation.

But it does not. Housing and childcare eat up much of the budget. Middle class can't live with a short commute. They have to live further out. Retirement is suspended by the need to pay for childcare. Vacations are more along ocean city rather than Aruba.

The DC middle class do not have the buying power that the rest of the countries middle class have. So we can argue about absolute dollars with regard to HHI, but middle class is about lifestyle. And $150k for a family of 4, does not buy a middle class lifestyle.

You are omitting so many factors that make DC different from those other cities, and therefore more in demand with accompanying higher prices. We have three large airports within an hour of the district, a large metro system, world class museums and performing arts, a research zoo, three large research universities in the district, and several more colleges, in nearby suburbs, a growing tech business, several major health systems, several national sports teams, and of course hundreds of thousands of unique employment opportunities for white collar workers because DC is the seat of the federal govt. You are not going to get this incredible mix of opportunities in a city of average cost. A middle class life in DC will buy you proximity to these things as a trade off to a larger house or shorter commute.

Correct. But again, these are largely intangibles. So when policymakers say they want to tax you more because you're not middle class, or you don't qualify for college aid, because you're not middle class, they are assuming that you are putting the money into savings or spending on something that you could go without. When actually, you are spending it on housing and associated increased cost of living expenses, and the "benefits" you are getting are intangibles and can't be "cut." So people in higher cost of living areas are disadvantaged, when their incomes are classified as "wealthy" but their standard of living is what would be considered middle class anywhere else, with various intangible amenities associated with the location.

No, the fuck you did not say that you were "disadvantaged" because you cannot get the benefits you were looking for.
So many of you are so damned deluded it's pitiful.
Yes our household income is over $200,000 and NOT THE FUCK WE ARE NOT MIDDLE CLASS.
We CHOSE to live in this area
We CHOSE our career paths and the jobs that brought us here
We get to CHOOSE from a lot more options that people earning much less and in lower cost of living areas do not get to choose from
Because I do not have something I want and expected does not magically make me something I am not
DAFUQ?!

You are absolutely disadvantaged compared to someone with the same income in a lower cost of living area, when things are not indexed to the cost of living. That is not the same as being "disadvantaged" in the normal socioeconomic sense.

so fucking move

Why so angry?

because you are so utterly ridiculously entitled. and you're right - i need to step away from this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, an 850k house in an affluent neighborhood is exactly what most people cite when they think of someone with a higher income (it is also very tangible, by the way). To your main point - you have many choices, you chose an 850k house. You dont need that house. If you came in to work and told your boss you were moving to south Arlington, Woodbridge, Springfield, Burke, silver spring, PG, would your salary change? You want to be in an affluent, close in neighborhood, so you choose to pay more for that. If I choose to buy an 850k unicorn horn with a high income, that doesn't make me middle class just because it isn't something people "cite when they think of someone with a high income". I chose to buy it, I had the money to pay for it, which means I now have less money left for other things, but it doesn't magically make me middle class.

Again, this line of reasoning is highly hypocritical. You can say the same thing about just any other group making above the median income in the DC area and declare that they are therefore not middle class. This is clearly not the case. Even as the upper middle class group enjoy marginally better quality of life, their life style is similar and they can closely relate to other people in the middle class. My rich Iranian friend with family wealth cannot relate to the middle class - she is smart and knows that she can't, so she doesn't make an ass out of herself. She knows she lives a sheltered life. She works at a non-profit to keep herself busy, she doesn't need the income. She has no interest in the current interest rates because she can pay for a house, any house, with cash. Her kids go to private school, the cost of which is so inconsequential they might as well be free. She has a driver who take the kids to/from school daily. And it seems she's on vacation at least half of the time. No upper middle class person lives like this.

I'm pretty sure I can't "closely relate" to you! There is no way in hell we could afford a house that costs 850k in a close suburb!

You read that wrong, people who make 200k to 300k can relate to those who make $100k. Clearly the reverse is not true, because those making $100k have fantasies about what it's like to make $200k/$300k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has been beaten to death. People in DC who make over $150k believe that that money should buy you certain things. It should buy you a house with an easy commute, good school district, ability to save for retirement and perhaps a vacation.

But it does not. Housing and childcare eat up much of the budget. Middle class can't live with a short commute. They have to live further out. Retirement is suspended by the need to pay for childcare. Vacations are more along ocean city rather than Aruba.

The DC middle class do not have the buying power that the rest of the countries middle class have. So we can argue about absolute dollars with regard to HHI, but middle class is about lifestyle. And $150k for a family of 4, does not buy a middle class lifestyle.

You are omitting so many factors that make DC different from those other cities, and therefore more in demand with accompanying higher prices. We have three large airports within an hour of the district, a large metro system, world class museums and performing arts, a research zoo, three large research universities in the district, and several more colleges, in nearby suburbs, a growing tech business, several major health systems, several national sports teams, and of course hundreds of thousands of unique employment opportunities for white collar workers because DC is the seat of the federal govt. You are not going to get this incredible mix of opportunities in a city of average cost. A middle class life in DC will buy you proximity to these things as a trade off to a larger house or shorter commute.

Correct. But again, these are largely intangibles. So when policymakers say they want to tax you more because you're not middle class, or you don't qualify for college aid, because you're not middle class, they are assuming that you are putting the money into savings or spending on something that you could go without. When actually, you are spending it on housing and associated increased cost of living expenses, and the "benefits" you are getting are intangibles and can't be "cut." So people in higher cost of living areas are disadvantaged, when their incomes are classified as "wealthy" but their standard of living is what would be considered middle class anywhere else, with various intangible amenities associated with the location.

of course they can be cut. how do you think people who make 1/3 of what you make live here?

They don't own houses. It is extremely difficult to get into any kind of housing here for less than $300K, which is MORE than a SFH costs almost anywhere else in the country.

SFH's in neighborhoods that are close to major cities, with the amenities that people here (by which I mean DCUM) think of as necessities, such as schools with predominantly affluent student bodies, and metro stations to take you to concerts and museums in the city, and low crime rates, don't cost $300K in most areas.

Yes, you can buy a wonderful SFH in Bumblefuq. But you can't argue that it's unfair that people in Bumblefuq have it so good, while also arguing that you "need" your community to be walkable, and urbane, and to have schools with high test scores, because Bumblefuq does not have those things. People in rural and semi-rural communities regularly drive long distances for all sorts of things. They send their kids to schools with lots of social economic diversity. They live in areas where they don't have a lot of access to things like museums. If you are saying that those communities are equivalent to your community in Arlington or Bethesda, then move to PG or Prince William County. There you can find more affordable housing, socio-economically diverse schools (with corresponding test scores), and have the opportunity to drive long distances.

I agree with this post. We bought our 2000 sq ft house in 2009 inPWC for $250k and it's probably worth $280k now. The elementary school my kid goes to is rated a 2 out of 10. But hey, the "middle class" has to live somewhere becaus e they can't afford a house that costs $800k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even as the upper middle class group enjoy marginally better quality of life, their life style is similar and they can closely relate to other people in the middle class.

I don't think the $250,000 doesn't get you very far" types can really relate to people in the actual middle class.

Really? Really? Isn't that what the whole "doesn't get you very far" concept means? It doesn't get you very far, meaning you are still largely the same as those making $100k, just marginally better, not very far.

Understand?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, in NW DC it is middle class. That's reality.

You're deluded.

No - there's actually a big gap between middleclass and rich. Rich is an abundance of disposable time and money - it takes a longtime to get there, not just a what's this year's W2....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, you can buy a wonderful SFH in Bumblefuq. But you can't argue that it's unfair that people in Bumblefuq have it so good, while also arguing that you "need" your community to be walkable, and urbane, and to have schools with high test scores, because Bumblefuq does not have those things. People in rural and semi-rural communities regularly drive long distances for all sorts of things. They send their kids to schools with lots of social economic diversity. They live in areas where they don't have a lot of access to things like museums. If you are saying that those communities are equivalent to your community in Arlington or Bethesda, then move to PG or Prince William County. There you can find more affordable housing, socio-economically diverse schools (with corresponding test scores), and have the opportunity to drive long distances.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even as the upper middle class group enjoy marginally better quality of life, their life style is similar and they can closely relate to other people in the middle class.

I don't think the $250,000 doesn't get you very far" types can really relate to people in the actual middle class.

Really? Really? Isn't that what the whole "doesn't get you very far" concept means? It doesn't get you very far, meaning you are still largely the same as those making $100k, just marginally better, not very far.

Understand?

As someone who makes slightly under $100K, I shake my head at this. I can not understand how $150K extra could only make a marginal difference, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that our lives are exactly the same. How big is your apartment? How many people do you share your bathroom with? Does the fact that one of washers in the laundry room is still broken after 3 weeks annoy you as much as it annoys me?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I still do not understand the almost aggressive way DCUMers making $300K want to be called middle class. Why are you not proud of having achieved more than 95% of other people?

That's like telling people your kid with 4.5 GPA is an average student. It doesn't make you seem humble, it makes you seem hopelessly greedy. "I have soooooo much, but I want MORE."

The reason why has been pointed out numerous times in this thread. Your lack of understanding boils down to being dense at this point.

Of course I am proud of my achievements. I live a disciplined life of hard work, with long hours and tireless dedication. I pay a huge amount in taxes each year, and the lifestyle I live is not fabulous, just marginally better than the average middle class. Yet at every opportunity, liberal politicians label me as the rich, they claim I don't pay my fair share. They use their position of power to rally the masses against the likes of me in order to advance their agenda. People like you then pile on top telling me how good I have it. Yes, I have it good, but it's not as good as you imagine it. I am more like you than I am like someone in the top 0.5%. We share the same concerns, we have the same need to stay working to support a family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still do not understand the almost aggressive way DCUMers making $300K want to be called middle class. Why are you not proud of having achieved more than 95% of other people?

That's like telling people your kid with 4.5 GPA is an average student. It doesn't make you seem humble, it makes you seem hopelessly greedy. "I have soooooo much, but I want MORE."

I don't really get it either. I also don't get why they all sound so dissatisfied with life.

It's really self explanatory. Imagine what it would be like to have $200k/$300k income. Okay, got that mental image ready? Nice eh?

Those of us who have made it can tell you with certainty, it's not like that. You don't go from driving an Accord to driving a Ferrari. More like from an Accord to a TLX. That's why you don't get it, because we didn't get it either. Making $200k to $300k isn't what it's cracked up to be. The dream is a lie. When you wake up to reality and the outcome doesn't match expectation, well, that's a definition of dissatisfaction, isn't it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still do not understand the almost aggressive way DCUMers making $300K want to be called middle class. Why are you not proud of having achieved more than 95% of other people?

That's like telling people your kid with 4.5 GPA is an average student. It doesn't make you seem humble, it makes you seem hopelessly greedy. "I have soooooo much, but I want MORE."

The reason why has been pointed out numerous times in this thread. Your lack of understanding boils down to being dense at this point.

Of course I am proud of my achievements. I live a disciplined life of hard work, with long hours and tireless dedication. I pay a huge amount in taxes each year, and the lifestyle I live is not fabulous, just marginally better than the average middle class. Yet at every opportunity, liberal politicians label me as the rich, they claim I don't pay my fair share. They use their position of power to rally the masses against the likes of me in order to advance their agenda. People like you then pile on top telling me how good I have it. Yes, I have it good, but it's not as good as you imagine it. I am more like you than I am like someone in the top 0.5%. We share the same concerns, we have the same need to stay working to support a family.

As a middle class person, here are the luxuries I imagine that you have

I imagine that you own your own home, either a rowhouse in the city or a SFH, and a guaranteed place to park the car within a block or so.

I imagine that if you have kids under school age, they have childcare arrangements that you chose carefully, and that if your kid are school age, you felt that you had some degree of choice in where you sent them to school, either because you could afford to live in an area where you liked the private schools, or because you can afford the time and gas to drive them to a charter school in another part of the city, or because you send them to private.

I imagine that you drive a car that, most of the time, you can rely on because it runs well, and that if it unexpectedly broke down tomorrow, you'd be able to replace it with something else reliable.

I imagine that if your child, like mine, developed a life threatening medical condition, you wouldn't need to pick up extra hours at work, like I did, to pay for the doctors. In fact you might even take time off to be there to support your child.

I imagine that you have central air conditioning, and your own washer/dryer, and that if one of these things breaks you call someone to fix it, rather than doing without.

I could go on.

Am I really wrong in what I imagine that you have that I don't? Am I really the one who doesn't understand how you live, rather than vice versa?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't live in an 850K house, I live in a 600K 2 bedroom cape in south Arlington, on 1/6 of an acre, and commute 3 miles to the Metro because we live in an area that is as far as you can be in Arlington from either Orange or Blue. But our HHI is almost $300K, so apparently we are just one step away from Donald Trump.

No, you are not one step away from Donald Trump. But you are about as far from Donald Trump as you are from the true middle class. You are affluent, but not rich or wealthy. The affluent class is easily above the middle class and has choice of where to live, can fully fund retirement, saving for college, good schools for children (whether buying property in a good school district or private), savings and still have some disposable income (not necessarily a lot) leftover. The middle class has to make compromises in a lot of areas to get those same benefits. I'd say that the the middle class makes about $75-150K, which is about the 25th to 75th percentile of HHI, essentially the middle of the earning curve. The affluent is probably about the 76th percentile to the 99th percentile or about $150-400K. The rich are the 1% which in this area is roughly over 400K.

Well, of course this works if you add another category ("affluent"). But usually people say the categories are poor, working class, middle class, and rich, and pretty much anyone who supports their family with a job is going to put themselves in the "middle class" category.

Uh, upper-middle? Isn't that what half this argument was about- $300k folks preferring to be called middle rather than upper-middle?

No, we don't want to be called upper class or rich, or wealthy. We know we are upper middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still do not understand the almost aggressive way DCUMers making $300K want to be called middle class. Why are you not proud of having achieved more than 95% of other people?

That's like telling people your kid with 4.5 GPA is an average student. It doesn't make you seem humble, it makes you seem hopelessly greedy. "I have soooooo much, but I want MORE."

I don't really get it either. I also don't get why they all sound so dissatisfied with life.

It's really self explanatory. Imagine what it would be like to have $200k/$300k income. Okay, got that mental image ready? Nice eh?

Those of us who have made it can tell you with certainty, it's not like that. You don't go from driving an Accord to driving a Ferrari. More like from an Accord to a TLX. That's why you don't get it, because we didn't get it either. Making $200k to $300k isn't what it's cracked up to be. The dream is a lie. When you wake up to reality and the outcome doesn't match expectation, well, that's a definition of dissatisfaction, isn't it?

I don't imagine that you suddenly have a Ferrari. I consider a late model Accord a pretty luxurious thing to own, certainly a step up from the Metrobus I use.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has been beaten to death. People in DC who make over $150k believe that that money should buy you certain things. It should buy you a house with an easy commute, good school district, ability to save for retirement and perhaps a vacation.

But it does not. Housing and childcare eat up much of the budget. Middle class can't live with a short commute. They have to live further out. Retirement is suspended by the need to pay for childcare. Vacations are more along ocean city rather than Aruba.

The DC middle class do not have the buying power that the rest of the countries middle class have. So we can argue about absolute dollars with regard to HHI, but middle class is about lifestyle. And $150k for a family of 4, does not buy a middle class lifestyle.

You are omitting so many factors that make DC different from those other cities, and therefore more in demand with accompanying higher prices. We have three large airports within an hour of the district, a large metro system, world class museums and performing arts, a research zoo, three large research universities in the district, and several more colleges, in nearby suburbs, a growing tech business, several major health systems, several national sports teams, and of course hundreds of thousands of unique employment opportunities for white collar workers because DC is the seat of the federal govt. You are not going to get this incredible mix of opportunities in a city of average cost. A middle class life in DC will buy you proximity to these things as a trade off to a larger house or shorter commute.

Correct. But again, these are largely intangibles. So when policymakers say they want to tax you more because you're not middle class, or you don't qualify for college aid, because you're not middle class, they are assuming that you are putting the money into savings or spending on something that you could go without. When actually, you are spending it on housing and associated increased cost of living expenses, and the "benefits" you are getting are intangibles and can't be "cut." So people in higher cost of living areas are disadvantaged, when their incomes are classified as "wealthy" but their standard of living is what would be considered middle class anywhere else, with various intangible amenities associated with the location.

No, the fuck you did not say that you were "disadvantaged" because you cannot get the benefits you were looking for.
So many of you are so damned deluded it's pitiful.
Yes our household income is over $200,000 and NOT THE FUCK WE ARE NOT MIDDLE CLASS.
We CHOSE to live in this area
We CHOSE our career paths and the jobs that brought us here
We get to CHOOSE from a lot more options that people earning much less and in lower cost of living areas do not get to choose from
Because I do not have something I want and expected does not magically make me something I am not
DAFUQ?!

You are absolutely disadvantaged compared to someone with the same income in a lower cost of living area, when things are not indexed to the cost of living. That is not the same as being "disadvantaged" in the normal socioeconomic sense.

so fucking move

Why so angry?

He/she probably hates stupid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has been beaten to death. People in DC who make over $150k believe that that money should buy you certain things. It should buy you a house with an easy commute, good school district, ability to save for retirement and perhaps a vacation.

But it does not. Housing and childcare eat up much of the budget. Middle class can't live with a short commute. They have to live further out. Retirement is suspended by the need to pay for childcare. Vacations are more along ocean city rather than Aruba.

The DC middle class do not have the buying power that the rest of the countries middle class have. So we can argue about absolute dollars with regard to HHI, but middle class is about lifestyle. And $150k for a family of 4, does not buy a middle class lifestyle.

You are omitting so many factors that make DC different from those other cities, and therefore more in demand with accompanying higher prices. We have three large airports within an hour of the district, a large metro system, world class museums and performing arts, a research zoo, three large research universities in the district, and several more colleges, in nearby suburbs, a growing tech business, several major health systems, several national sports teams, and of course hundreds of thousands of unique employment opportunities for white collar workers because DC is the seat of the federal govt. You are not going to get this incredible mix of opportunities in a city of average cost. A middle class life in DC will buy you proximity to these things as a trade off to a larger house or shorter commute.

Correct. But again, these are largely intangibles. So when policymakers say they want to tax you more because you're not middle class, or you don't qualify for college aid, because you're not middle class, they are assuming that you are putting the money into savings or spending on something that you could go without. When actually, you are spending it on housing and associated increased cost of living expenses, and the "benefits" you are getting are intangibles and can't be "cut." So people in higher cost of living areas are disadvantaged, when their incomes are classified as "wealthy" but their standard of living is what would be considered middle class anywhere else, with various intangible amenities associated with the location.

No, the fuck you did not say that you were "disadvantaged" because you cannot get the benefits you were looking for.
So many of you are so damned deluded it's pitiful.
Yes our household income is over $200,000 and NOT THE FUCK WE ARE NOT MIDDLE CLASS.
We CHOSE to live in this area
We CHOSE our career paths and the jobs that brought us here
We get to CHOOSE from a lot more options that people earning much less and in lower cost of living areas do not get to choose from
Because I do not have something I want and expected does not magically make me something I am not
DAFUQ?!

PREACH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still do not understand the almost aggressive way DCUMers making $300K want to be called middle class. Why are you not proud of having achieved more than 95% of other people?

That's like telling people your kid with 4.5 GPA is an average student. It doesn't make you seem humble, it makes you seem hopelessly greedy. "I have soooooo much, but I want MORE."

The reason why has been pointed out numerous times in this thread. Your lack of understanding boils down to being dense at this point.

Of course I am proud of my achievements. I live a disciplined life of hard work, with long hours and tireless dedication. I pay a huge amount in taxes each year, and the lifestyle I live is not fabulous, just marginally better than the average middle class. Yet at every opportunity, liberal politicians label me as the rich, they claim I don't pay my fair share. They use their position of power to rally the masses against the likes of me in order to advance their agenda. People like you then pile on top telling me how good I have it. Yes, I have it good, but it's not as good as you imagine it. I am more like you than I am like someone in the top 0.5%. We share the same concerns, we have the same need to stay working to support a family.

So now you feel as if people are piling on?
Get over yourself.
I have a high HHI and I don't have everything I thought I would at this income, I also don't have the title of middle class.
You are so freaking delusional it is sick.