DC traffic cameras issued 3.3 MILLION tickets last year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

The number of speeding related deaths have gone up and down each year, without any clear pattern. If increasing tickets by 10 times over the past decade actually made a difference, you'd see a pattern.

2023: 22
2022: 9
2021: 12
2020: 15
2019: 10
2018: 9
2017: 12
2016: 8
2015: 11
2014: 12
2013: 11

You can keep posting lies and I will keep calling you out for the liar that you are. You know that these numbers do not include many people killed by speeding drivers and yet you continue to claim otherwise. Why?

You can look them up yourself. They come from the DC police department. The reports are here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/mpd-annual-reports

I hate it when people make me repeat myself and you are making me repeat myself over and over again because you insist on spreading misinformation.

It states very clearly in the main table on page 44 on the 2023 report that the numbers constitute the “Predominant Cause of Traffic Fatality”.

I cannot believe that you do not understand the difference between a factor being determined to be a predominant cause and a contributing factor.

Therefore, I can only conclude that you are deliberately seeking to mislead the public in service of your hideous crusade against speed cameras, which persists in spite of all evidence that they save lives.

Do you want people to die on the streets of DC? Is that your goal here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

Correlation. Based on the other data, it's clear something else caused the reduction. But I am sure others will cherry pick this data point in order to double the number of cameras again.

Do you understand that vehicular crashes can have multiple causes or don’t you?

Here you posit that other changes in other factors drove the reduction in traffic fatalities. Yet in the post immediately before this, you argue that it is clear that traffic cameras aren’t working because “speeding deaths” aren’t perfectly correlated with the increase in traffic cameras.

Please make up your mind.

I’m also very confused as to what type of evidence would convince you that traffic cameras are contributing to a reduction in traffic deaths.

There are multiple peer-reviewed scientific studies that demonstrate that cameras reduce traffic fatalities. These have been posted in this thread and you dismissed them as not being relevant because they were not done in DC.

Yet you now dismiss DC-specific evidence - which include the massive reduction in traffic fatalities the year after the number of cameras were doubled as well as evidence showing that traffic cameras reduce vehicle speed - as not being rigorous enough.

I think it’s very clear to the rest of us that either you are lying to yourself or to everyone else. That is, you cannot bear the idea that you could possibly be wrong and so dismiss any evidence - no matter how convincing - that undermines your opinion or you know you are wrong, but do not want to admit it.

You seem to be tying yourself in knots trying to blame everything on speeding. I'm sorry the data doesn't fit your narrative. It's hard to see a relationship between the two when ticketing has absolutely exploded and the number of speeding deaths goes up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

The number of speeding related deaths have gone up and down each year, without any clear pattern. If increasing tickets by 10 times over the past decade actually made a difference, you'd see a pattern.

2023: 22
2022: 9
2021: 12
2020: 15
2019: 10
2018: 9
2017: 12
2016: 8
2015: 11
2014: 12
2013: 11

You can keep posting lies and I will keep calling you out for the liar that you are. You know that these numbers do not include many people killed by speeding drivers and yet you continue to claim otherwise. Why?

You can look them up yourself. They come from the DC police department. The reports are here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/mpd-annual-reports

I hate it when people make me repeat myself and you are making me repeat myself over and over again because you insist on spreading misinformation.

It states very clearly in the main table on page 44 on the 2023 report that the numbers constitute the “Predominant Cause of Traffic Fatality”.

I cannot believe that you do not understand the difference between a factor being determined to be a predominant cause and a contributing factor.

Therefore, I can only conclude that you are deliberately seeking to mislead the public in service of your hideous crusade against speed cameras, which persists in spite of all evidence that they save lives.

Do you want people to die on the streets of DC? Is that your goal here?

Everything has multiple causes. There are multiple reasons why I had eggs for breakfast. But the police investigated these crashes. They interviewed people in the crashes. They interview people who saw the crashes. They examined the physical evidence. Then they reported the primary reason for the crash and that was used in some cases to put people in prison. You can pretend you know better than the people who actually did the work, but it seems like it would be better for everyone if you just shut the fkc up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

The number of speeding related deaths have gone up and down each year, without any clear pattern. If increasing tickets by 10 times over the past decade actually made a difference, you'd see a pattern.

2023: 22
2022: 9
2021: 12
2020: 15
2019: 10
2018: 9
2017: 12
2016: 8
2015: 11
2014: 12
2013: 11

You can keep posting lies and I will keep calling you out for the liar that you are. You know that these numbers do not include many people killed by speeding drivers and yet you continue to claim otherwise. Why?

You can look them up yourself. They come from the DC police department. The reports are here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/mpd-annual-reports

I hate it when people make me repeat myself and you are making me repeat myself over and over again because you insist on spreading misinformation.

It states very clearly in the main table on page 44 on the 2023 report that the numbers constitute the “Predominant Cause of Traffic Fatality”.

I cannot believe that you do not understand the difference between a factor being determined to be a predominant cause and a contributing factor.

Therefore, I can only conclude that you are deliberately seeking to mislead the public in service of your hideous crusade against speed cameras, which persists in spite of all evidence that they save lives.

Do you want people to die on the streets of DC? Is that your goal here?

Everything has multiple causes. There are multiple reasons why I had eggs for breakfast. But the police investigated these crashes. They interviewed people in the crashes. They interview people who saw the crashes. They examined the physical evidence. Then they reported the primary reason for the crash and that was used in some cases to put people in prison. You can pretend you know better than the people who actually did the work, but it seems like it would be better for everyone if you just shut the fkc up.

I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand, but I’ll try to explain it again.

Just because speeding was not deemed to be the “predominant” cause of the fatality by MPD does not mean that the driver who caused the fatality was not speeding.

If you want confirmation of this, feel free to call MPD and ask them. But for the rest of us this is nothing other than very basic logic.

You are either a liar or an idiot. I don’t see too many other possibilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

Correlation. Based on the other data, it's clear something else caused the reduction. But I am sure others will cherry pick this data point in order to double the number of cameras again.

Do you understand that vehicular crashes can have multiple causes or don’t you?

Here you posit that other changes in other factors drove the reduction in traffic fatalities. Yet in the post immediately before this, you argue that it is clear that traffic cameras aren’t working because “speeding deaths” aren’t perfectly correlated with the increase in traffic cameras.

Please make up your mind.

I’m also very confused as to what type of evidence would convince you that traffic cameras are contributing to a reduction in traffic deaths.

There are multiple peer-reviewed scientific studies that demonstrate that cameras reduce traffic fatalities. These have been posted in this thread and you dismissed them as not being relevant because they were not done in DC.

Yet you now dismiss DC-specific evidence - which include the massive reduction in traffic fatalities the year after the number of cameras were doubled as well as evidence showing that traffic cameras reduce vehicle speed - as not being rigorous enough.

I think it’s very clear to the rest of us that either you are lying to yourself or to everyone else. That is, you cannot bear the idea that you could possibly be wrong and so dismiss any evidence - no matter how convincing - that undermines your opinion or you know you are wrong, but do not want to admit it.

You seem to be tying yourself in knots trying to blame everything on speeding. I'm sorry the data doesn't fit your narrative. It's hard to see a relationship between the two when ticketing has absolutely exploded and the number of speeding deaths goes up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down.

The data - peer-reviewed studies, localized observation, and the city-wide trend - all seem to confirm that traffic cameras reduce speeding and also reduce traffic fatalities.

I’m sorry that reality doesn’t align with your opinions. Find a new cause. This one is not a good look on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

The number of speeding related deaths have gone up and down each year, without any clear pattern. If increasing tickets by 10 times over the past decade actually made a difference, you'd see a pattern.

2023: 22
2022: 9
2021: 12
2020: 15
2019: 10
2018: 9
2017: 12
2016: 8
2015: 11
2014: 12
2013: 11

You can keep posting lies and I will keep calling you out for the liar that you are. You know that these numbers do not include many people killed by speeding drivers and yet you continue to claim otherwise. Why?

You can look them up yourself. They come from the DC police department. The reports are here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/mpd-annual-reports

I hate it when people make me repeat myself and you are making me repeat myself over and over again because you insist on spreading misinformation.

It states very clearly in the main table on page 44 on the 2023 report that the numbers constitute the “Predominant Cause of Traffic Fatality”.

I cannot believe that you do not understand the difference between a factor being determined to be a predominant cause and a contributing factor.

Therefore, I can only conclude that you are deliberately seeking to mislead the public in service of your hideous crusade against speed cameras, which persists in spite of all evidence that they save lives.

Do you want people to die on the streets of DC? Is that your goal here?

Everything has multiple causes. There are multiple reasons why I had eggs for breakfast. But the police investigated these crashes. They interviewed people in the crashes. They interview people who saw the crashes. They examined the physical evidence. Then they reported the primary reason for the crash and that was used in some cases to put people in prison. You can pretend you know better than the people who actually did the work, but it seems like it would be better for everyone if you just shut the fkc up.

I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand, but I’ll try to explain it again.

Just because speeding was not deemed to be the “predominant” cause of the fatality by MPD does not mean that the driver who caused the fatality was not speeding.

If you want confirmation of this, feel free to call MPD and ask them. But for the rest of us this is nothing other than very basic logic.

You are either a liar or an idiot. I don’t see too many other possibilities.

Part of not being an idiot is knowing when you don't know something. And you know literally nothing about the individual circumstances in any of these accidents. You're just making assumptions about what you hope is true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

Correlation. Based on the other data, it's clear something else caused the reduction. But I am sure others will cherry pick this data point in order to double the number of cameras again.

Do you understand that vehicular crashes can have multiple causes or don’t you?

Here you posit that other changes in other factors drove the reduction in traffic fatalities. Yet in the post immediately before this, you argue that it is clear that traffic cameras aren’t working because “speeding deaths” aren’t perfectly correlated with the increase in traffic cameras.

Please make up your mind.

I’m also very confused as to what type of evidence would convince you that traffic cameras are contributing to a reduction in traffic deaths.

There are multiple peer-reviewed scientific studies that demonstrate that cameras reduce traffic fatalities. These have been posted in this thread and you dismissed them as not being relevant because they were not done in DC.

Yet you now dismiss DC-specific evidence - which include the massive reduction in traffic fatalities the year after the number of cameras were doubled as well as evidence showing that traffic cameras reduce vehicle speed - as not being rigorous enough.

I think it’s very clear to the rest of us that either you are lying to yourself or to everyone else. That is, you cannot bear the idea that you could possibly be wrong and so dismiss any evidence - no matter how convincing - that undermines your opinion or you know you are wrong, but do not want to admit it.

You’re probably arguing with someone whose paycheck depends on them not understanding these things.

[Anonymous]

Traffic fatalities spiked the year that cameras, and all the assorted other measures, went in but have since fallen back in line with the long term historical range.

That doesn't show what you think it shows.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

The number of speeding related deaths have gone up and down each year, without any clear pattern. If increasing tickets by 10 times over the past decade actually made a difference, you'd see a pattern.

2023: 22
2022: 9
2021: 12
2020: 15
2019: 10
2018: 9
2017: 12
2016: 8
2015: 11
2014: 12
2013: 11

You can keep posting lies and I will keep calling you out for the liar that you are. You know that these numbers do not include many people killed by speeding drivers and yet you continue to claim otherwise. Why?

You can look them up yourself. They come from the DC police department. The reports are here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/mpd-annual-reports

I hate it when people make me repeat myself and you are making me repeat myself over and over again because you insist on spreading misinformation.

It states very clearly in the main table on page 44 on the 2023 report that the numbers constitute the “Predominant Cause of Traffic Fatality”.

I cannot believe that you do not understand the difference between a factor being determined to be a predominant cause and a contributing factor.

Therefore, I can only conclude that you are deliberately seeking to mislead the public in service of your hideous crusade against speed cameras, which persists in spite of all evidence that they save lives.

Do you want people to die on the streets of DC? Is that your goal here?

Everything has multiple causes. There are multiple reasons why I had eggs for breakfast. But the police investigated these crashes. They interviewed people in the crashes. They interview people who saw the crashes. They examined the physical evidence. Then they reported the primary reason for the crash and that was used in some cases to put people in prison. You can pretend you know better than the people who actually did the work, but it seems like it would be better for everyone if you just shut the fkc up.

So you do understand how traffic cameras can be effective at reducing fatal crashes even though the number of fatal crashes is not changing in accordance with the expansion of those cameras? Because it doesn't sound like you want to admit that you understand that.

That said, it is kind of silly to expect that cameras will make a difference to how people drive across the city when there are only 500 cameras for 8,000+ city blocks and drivers by and large know exactly where the cameras are. Cameras aren't going to work in places where there are no cameras.

If the city cared about saving lives, there would be traffic cameras on every block. They are cheaper enough to buy and operate that cost can no longer be cited as a factor in preventing the city from acquiring more of them. With AI, the cameras could also catch not only speeding but also drunk driving, double parking, red light running and so on.

How wonderful it would be to live in a city where drivers actually obeyed the law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

The number of speeding related deaths have gone up and down each year, without any clear pattern. If increasing tickets by 10 times over the past decade actually made a difference, you'd see a pattern.

2023: 22
2022: 9
2021: 12
2020: 15
2019: 10
2018: 9
2017: 12
2016: 8
2015: 11
2014: 12
2013: 11

You can keep posting lies and I will keep calling you out for the liar that you are. You know that these numbers do not include many people killed by speeding drivers and yet you continue to claim otherwise. Why?

You can look them up yourself. They come from the DC police department. The reports are here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/mpd-annual-reports

I hate it when people make me repeat myself and you are making me repeat myself over and over again because you insist on spreading misinformation.

It states very clearly in the main table on page 44 on the 2023 report that the numbers constitute the “Predominant Cause of Traffic Fatality”.

I cannot believe that you do not understand the difference between a factor being determined to be a predominant cause and a contributing factor.

Therefore, I can only conclude that you are deliberately seeking to mislead the public in service of your hideous crusade against speed cameras, which persists in spite of all evidence that they save lives.

Do you want people to die on the streets of DC? Is that your goal here?

Everything has multiple causes. There are multiple reasons why I had eggs for breakfast. But the police investigated these crashes. They interviewed people in the crashes. They interview people who saw the crashes. They examined the physical evidence. Then they reported the primary reason for the crash and that was used in some cases to put people in prison. You can pretend you know better than the people who actually did the work, but it seems like it would be better for everyone if you just shut the fkc up.

I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand, but I’ll try to explain it again.

Just because speeding was not deemed to be the “predominant” cause of the fatality by MPD does not mean that the driver who caused the fatality was not speeding.

If you want confirmation of this, feel free to call MPD and ask them. But for the rest of us this is nothing other than very basic logic.

You are either a liar or an idiot. I don’t see too many other possibilities.

Part of not being an idiot is knowing when you don't know something. And you know literally nothing about the individual circumstances in any of these accidents. You're just making assumptions about what you hope is true.

Part of being an idiot is not being able to grasp basic logic. But I digress . . .

I know plenty about the individual circumstances of many fatal crashes that happened in DC over the past 10 years. Many had multiple causes, but most of the people I know who were killed would still be alive today had the involved driver adhered to posted speed limits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Traffic fatalities spiked the year that cameras, and all the assorted other measures, went in but have since fallen back in line with the long term historical range.

That doesn't show what you think it shows.

What "long term historical range" are you talking about?

If current trends continue, DC will record about 19 traffic fatalities in 2025.

You can view the 20 year traffic fatality trend here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/traffic-data

In the past 20 years, there is only year (2012) when DC recorded less than 20 traffic deaths. Most years are substantially higher than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you know there's almost no stop sign cameras west of the park? I wonder how that happens....

There's 17 speed cameras in Ward 3. In Ward 7, there's almost 60.

Listing this without listing data on accidents or fatalities isn’t that useful.
Traffic accidents, injuries, and fatalities are FAR higher in ward 7 than 3. This isn’t the racist “gotcha” that you think it is.

Actually it is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

Accidents and fatalities are much higher in majority black zip codes. Should city officials defer to those who break the law or those who are victimized by law breakers?

The underlying problem is that road infrastructure is generally much more conducive to speeding in black majority zip codes. The solution is more traffic calming etc..

Accidents and fatalities are rare in every section of the city. The city should not bombard people with tickets that cost them lots of money and make no difference to accident rates.

No one is bombarding you. You are actively breaking the law. You can choose to stop.

It would make more sense if we just had the cops give out the tickets. So many of the camera tickets are bullshit-y foot fault tickets. It's just harassment.

The cops do not give a crap. They never did.

And what the is a foot fault ticket?? Did you follow the law or not? Sounds like no, but you want to whine about it

A lot of the tickets are for trivial offenses. For example you stopped at a stop sign, but the nose of your car was beyond the stop sign pole when you stopped, so they say you didnt stop at the stop sign.

The stop sign cameras record your speed going over the line and will automatically cancel the ticket if it's under a certain speed, specifically to avoid this situation. If the automatic cancellation doesn't happen for some reason you can appeal and presuming you were actually just inching over the line your ticket will be dismissed because they have not only your speed recorded but a video of the infraction that a human can review for an appeal.

People love to say "oh I was just doing this reasonable thing and the mean old speed camera punished me!" But in reality it's usually either a straight up lie or they have an utter lack of self-awareness of what they are doing in their vehicle, rolling through the stop sign at 8mph but in their mind they "barely inched over."

It would be great if it actually worked like this, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Most of the traffic camera tickets I have ever gotten (and there's been a few) are penny ante complaints about how I stopped but not in precisely the right place because my bumper was over the crosswalk or something.

That is literally how it works. It's right there on the DDOT website if you had ever bothered to take 2 seconds to look it up:

Drivers must come to a complete stop prior to the stop bar at an intersection controlled by a stop sign or traffic signal. This allows the driver to look around and ensure that they have the right of way before continuing. The stop signs units use radar to detect if a vehicle stopped at, rolled through, or ran a stop sign. Tickets will be issued when vehicles fail to make a complete stop at a stop signs.

The stop sign enforcement camera system predicts using advance algorithms, when a stop sign violation is occurring and captures the violation event with digital camera and high-resolution video.

Step 1 The first image of the violation is taken BEFORE the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 2 The second image is taken AFTER the vehicle passes the stop line.
Step 3 The license plate is taken from a close-up of the images captured.
Step 4 In addition, a high-resolution video of the violation event is captured as a validation tool.
Step 5 Additional data collected includes the time, date, speed, location, lane, and direction of the travel.

https://asc.ddot.dc.gov/

They send you a video when you get a ticket. No one needs to look anything up. You can see how silly the tickets are in the video they send you.

If the ticket is "silly," i.e. not video evidence of you breaking the law and deservedly getting the ticket, then you can easily get the ticket dismissed.

If the ticket is in fact video evidence of you breaking the law then the ticket is not "silly."

So what's the problem?

Tickets have increased 10 fold. They doubled in the past year alone. Last year there 3.3 million tickets for a city of 700,000. Speeding deaths have not gone down at all, despite the massive increase in ticketing. How is that possible? Lots and lots of tickets for trivial offenses.

You picked the wrong year to make this argument. Traffic deaths are down 60% year-on-year after the number of cameras were doubled last year. You need to find a new hobby.

The number of speeding related deaths have gone up and down each year, without any clear pattern. If increasing tickets by 10 times over the past decade actually made a difference, you'd see a pattern.

2023: 22
2022: 9
2021: 12
2020: 15
2019: 10
2018: 9
2017: 12
2016: 8
2015: 11
2014: 12
2013: 11

You can keep posting lies and I will keep calling you out for the liar that you are. You know that these numbers do not include many people killed by speeding drivers and yet you continue to claim otherwise. Why?

You can look them up yourself. They come from the DC police department. The reports are here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/mpd-annual-reports

I hate it when people make me repeat myself and you are making me repeat myself over and over again because you insist on spreading misinformation.

It states very clearly in the main table on page 44 on the 2023 report that the numbers constitute the “Predominant Cause of Traffic Fatality”.

I cannot believe that you do not understand the difference between a factor being determined to be a predominant cause and a contributing factor.

Therefore, I can only conclude that you are deliberately seeking to mislead the public in service of your hideous crusade against speed cameras, which persists in spite of all evidence that they save lives.

Do you want people to die on the streets of DC? Is that your goal here?

Everything has multiple causes. There are multiple reasons why I had eggs for breakfast. But the police investigated these crashes. They interviewed people in the crashes. They interview people who saw the crashes. They examined the physical evidence. Then they reported the primary reason for the crash and that was used in some cases to put people in prison. You can pretend you know better than the people who actually did the work, but it seems like it would be better for everyone if you just shut the fkc up.

So you do understand how traffic cameras can be effective at reducing fatal crashes even though the number of fatal crashes is not changing in accordance with the expansion of those cameras? Because it doesn't sound like you want to admit that you understand that.

That said, it is kind of silly to expect that cameras will make a difference to how people drive across the city when there are only 500 cameras for 8,000+ city blocks and drivers by and large know exactly where the cameras are. Cameras aren't going to work in places where there are no cameras.

If the city cared about saving lives, there would be traffic cameras on every block. They are cheaper enough to buy and operate that cost can no longer be cited as a factor in preventing the city from acquiring more of them. With AI, the cameras could also catch not only speeding but also drunk driving, double parking, red light running and so on.

How wonderful it would be to live in a city where drivers actually obeyed the law.

You sound like Trump pretending that DC is a crime ridden hell hole.

The reality is traffic accidents in DC are rare. Very, very few people die in traffic accidents. The vast majority of people are safe drivers, just like the vast majority of people do not commit crimes. Probably because so few people die in traffic accidents, it's hard to move the needle in further reductions which is why the numbers don't change that much from year to year.

You can blanket the city with tickets, but when you're issuing 3.3 million tickets to a city with a few hundred thousand drivers, you're mostly just giving tickets to safe drivers who make minor mistakes. That has no impact on safety. It's just harassment. It's like Trump putting National Guard troops on every corner, giving everyone tickets for jaywalking and then pretending you're reducing crime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Traffic fatalities spiked the year that cameras, and all the assorted other measures, went in but have since fallen back in line with the long term historical range.

That doesn't show what you think it shows.

What "long term historical range" are you talking about?

If current trends continue, DC will record about 19 traffic fatalities in 2025.

You can view the 20 year traffic fatality trend here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/traffic-data

In the past 20 years, there is only year (2012) when DC recorded less than 20 traffic deaths. Most years are substantially higher than that.

DP. It seems reasonable to believe that the traffic cameras are not covering the areas with traffic-related deaths. More cameras in the same areas are unlikely to yield any benefit. Remember, the cameras are not smoothly distributed throughout the District. Additionally, more cameras doesn't mean more coverage if they just increase density in the current coverage areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Traffic fatalities spiked the year that cameras, and all the assorted other measures, went in but have since fallen back in line with the long term historical range.

That doesn't show what you think it shows.

What "long term historical range" are you talking about?

If current trends continue, DC will record about 19 traffic fatalities in 2025.

You can view the 20 year traffic fatality trend here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/traffic-data

In the past 20 years, there is only year (2012) when DC recorded less than 20 traffic deaths. Most years are substantially higher than that.

DP. It seems reasonable to believe that the traffic cameras are not covering the areas with traffic-related deaths. More cameras in the same areas are unlikely to yield any benefit. Remember, the cameras are not smoothly distributed throughout the District. Additionally, more cameras doesn't mean more coverage if they just increase density in the current coverage areas.

The cameras are mostly in black neighborhoods. There's hardly any in rich white areas. When people point out that this seems pretty racist, the response is invariably that this is where the traffic deaths happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Traffic fatalities spiked the year that cameras, and all the assorted other measures, went in but have since fallen back in line with the long term historical range.

That doesn't show what you think it shows.

What "long term historical range" are you talking about?

If current trends continue, DC will record about 19 traffic fatalities in 2025.

You can view the 20 year traffic fatality trend here: https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/traffic-data

In the past 20 years, there is only year (2012) when DC recorded less than 20 traffic deaths. Most years are substantially higher than that.

DP. It seems reasonable to believe that the traffic cameras are not covering the areas with traffic-related deaths. More cameras in the same areas are unlikely to yield any benefit. Remember, the cameras are not smoothly distributed throughout the District. Additionally, more cameras doesn't mean more coverage if they just increase density in the current coverage areas.

The cameras are mostly in black neighborhoods. There's hardly any in rich white areas. When people point out that this seems pretty racist, the response is invariably that this is where the traffic deaths happen.

I haven't seen a heat map of the traffic cameras versus traffic deaths. Again, it's also possible the District has reached a saturation point meaning that more traffic cameras with have no impact on the scofflaws that ignore the cameras and their tickets.