TJ Admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not easy to convince an above average MS who is used to mostly As, to be at the bottom of class at TJ and accept Cs and Ds as normal.

It's a false choice. The fact that that is happening with a few TJ students at the moment is not justification for scrapping a plan that has improved access to TJ.

And it's also not catastrophic for kids to get an occasional C or D. It's been happening at TJ for decades and in some cases, it's a great chance for kids to actually experience and overcome academic adversity. Plenty of kids have been getting Cs and Ds at TJ for as long as it's existed.

What has been happening at TJ? There are now 120+ admitted in the lowest TJ Math 1 course, historically it was not even a class full, less than 20. Many more getting Cs or Ds now.

As to the first point, so what? There have always been students at other high schools who didn't get into TJ even though they were highly advanced in math - now there are enough that those high schools will be able to justify raising the ceiling of their math department. Win.

As to the second point, provide data to support your assertion.

How is it a Win, when just one or two student from low performing middle school are being placed into lowest rigorous classes at TJ, while hundreds are left behind to advance to even lower performing High School without the support of their somewhat higher-achieving peers. It's a big Loss when those already struggling high schools are even more depleted of their top students.

There is very little political risk if low performing schools are depleted of their scarce top talent. FCPS board appears to have given up on low performing MS and HS schools, anyway. Messing with TJ gives political relevance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not easy to convince an above average MS who is used to mostly As, to be at the bottom of class at TJ and accept Cs and Ds as normal.

It's a false choice. The fact that that is happening with a few TJ students at the moment is not justification for scrapping a plan that has improved access to TJ.

And it's also not catastrophic for kids to get an occasional C or D. It's been happening at TJ for decades and in some cases, it's a great chance for kids to actually experience and overcome academic adversity. Plenty of kids have been getting Cs and Ds at TJ for as long as it's existed.

What has been happening at TJ? There are now 120+ admitted in the lowest TJ Math 1 course, historically it was not even a class full, less than 20. Many more getting Cs or Ds now.

As to the first point, so what? There have always been students at other high schools who didn't get into TJ even though they were highly advanced in math - now there are enough that those high schools will be able to justify raising the ceiling of their math department. Win.

As to the second point, provide data to support your assertion.

How is it a Win, when just one or two student from low performing middle school are being placed into lowest rigorous classes at TJ, while hundreds are left behind to advance to even lower performing High School without the support of their somewhat higher-achieving peers. It's a big Loss when those already struggling high schools are even more depleted of their top students.

There is very little political risk if low performing schools are depleted of their scarce top talent. FCPS board appears to have given up on low performing MS and HS schools, anyway. Messing with TJ gives political relevance.

You need to get your glasses checked. They seem to be the wrong prescription.

[Anonymous]

prescription? Those lacking substance resort to personal attacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ FCPS acknowledges that the same four top middle schools are where advanced STEM talent is nurtured to not just meet the TJ rigor but enroll in advanced courses there.”

DC has been doing great at TJ but still won’t have as much schedule space as others because she “only” started at Math 3 level (Alg 2). She could definitely have skipped a year and done Alg 1 in 6th but not all the centers do that - she would have had to go to the secondary school for that and no clue how transpiration for that would have worked. Not all centers have the same opportunity for the full acceleration spectrum that the “feeder” schools offer.

The majority of TJ students have always started HS with Algebra 2.
They take calculus in their junior year and they take electives in their senior year.
That is very typical.

No they have not. There are not that many kids taking Algebra 2 in MS. I ran the SOL numbers for the last three years. I actually went back and ran the numbers for a 10 year period, 2021 was the first year to have over 200 students take the Algebra 2 SOL in 8th grade. I am not going to hand jam the numbers though.

Algebra 1 in 6th grade:
2021-2022: 22 FCPS students
2022-2023: 31 FCPS Students
2023-2024: 25 FCPS students

Algebra 2 in 8th grade:
2021-2022: 221 FCPS students
2022-2023: 210 FCPS students
2023-2024 201 FCPS students

I would say that the majority of kids at TJ have had Geometry and are taking Algebra 2. Very few kids are offered the path to Algebra 1 in 5th grade and a small group of kids choose to take Geometry in the summer. If you read the various summer threads on Geometry in the summer it is either not that hard for a kid but a time suck or stupidly hard and the kids drop it or expunge the grade. It feels like a 50/50 split but there is going to be a bias based on who chooses to post.

Most of the kids at TJ will take Calculus as Juniors about a quarter will take Calculus as Sophomores.

Yup.

60% of the class of 2024 took geometry in 8th, per FCAG.

34% took algebra 2+.

I think everybody is on the same page.

Then the class of 2025 increase the kids who took 8th grade algebra from 5% to 35%.
Why did they do this?
There was a 1.5% quota at each school that they needed to fill.

I have no problem with insuring that kids from every MS in TJs area are accepted at the school. TJ is a public resource that should be available to everyone in the County. Do I think the admin criteria can be tweaked? Sure.

I think the kids should have completed Geometry in 8th grade to be able to apply. Every MS has kids taking Geometry so I see that as a reasonable threshold.

I think there should be points awarded for completing classes beyond Geometry, similar to the points awarded for IEPs and FARMs status.

I don’t think that the Q test should be used. I don’t think we should be using something that is easily gamed and provides a significant bump to families that can pay for enrichment.

I think that there could be points awarded to kids who participate in school sponsored math and science activities, like Math Counts and Science Olympiad. Those can be available at every school and show a level of interest in math and science that is beyond the class requirements.

I don’t think after school activities should be included in the application, TJ admissions points should be based on what is available or could be available at every MS in FCPS.

I do think that kids should be ranked based on the MS that they are attending, which is what they are doing now, on not what their base MS could have been. If you want to be the big fish in the small pond and increase your chances of attending TJ, attend your base school. If nyou are going to decide to take a Center spot then that is who you compete against.

I think you can tweak the admissions criteria as they stand to strengthen the candidates enter TJ while maintaining open access for every MS. I have no problem with the geographic distribution.

I'm the loudest and most well-informed pro-reform person on this board and I think this is an excellent perspective. FCPS has taken a big swing at TJ reform and I think it was laudable - and I think they went a small step too far.

I don't entirely agree with the Geometry requirement but I do see where you are coming from. I think it would have positives and negatives. I have seen dozens of exceptional kids at TJ graduate and have major impacts while coming in with only Algebra, so I'm not sure how much of a necessity it is. That said, eliminating the need for Geometry courses at TJ would open up more opportunities for expansion of the back end of the math program.

The only other thing I'd say is that we don't need "points" or a rubric. A rubric creates a false sense of objectivity while being comprised of entirely subjective evaluations - even the question of how many points to assign to a GPA standard is a subjective question. You use a kid's socioeconomic status to create context for the other pieces of the application.

Here's how I'd do it:

Applications due mid-October. They will include, essentially, the student's middle school transcript and two fillable recommendations from 7th grade teachers - these will be scantron oriented as I said before, would take no more than 5-10 minutes to complete, and would ask teachers to evaluate students against each other across broad, mostly soft-skill categories. You'll get the first quarter grades in mid-November and you use those elements to get from ~3,000 applicants down to about ~1,000 finalists, and you do this in mid-January at the latest. You inform the other ~2,000 that they didn't make the cut and they get to move on to apply for private schools or whatever they want to do.

For the finalists, they are then required to get similar recommendations filled out by two eighth-grade teachers. You'll get their second quarter grades in mid-February. And then, in late February, you bring them all in to TJ, set them up with laptops, and you have them answer four questions:

1. What is your proudest achievement in STEM? (Disqualify any student who attempts to reference more than one.)
2. What is your proudest achievement outside of STEM? (Same deal, and use this question to create a class with diverse interests.)
3. What do you hope to get from your four years at TJ? (This is where you tell kids that if they do not want to attend TJ, to indicate it here and their parents won't know.)
4. How do you hope to impact TJ during your four years?

You then use the first semester grades, the teacher recommendations, and the question responses to build a class that is going to be strong as a group. First you select the allotted students from each school, which will amount to 300 or so, and then you throw the other 700 finalists in a big pot for the other 250 spots.

You would get an exceptional, well-balanced class that was strongly likely to be prepared for TJ. You would have enough information to identify which FARMS students were truly deserving of the opportunity without using a standardized exam and without giving them any "extra points", and I'm betting you'd still get a very solid number of them. And you'd have a much stronger idea of what the group would be able to contribute moving forward, with a solid wait-list to choose from.

Using complex rubrics just creates advantages for the children of well informed parents. This usually means affluent parents.

That is how you create gameable situations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not easy to convince an above average MS who is used to mostly As, to be at the bottom of class at TJ and accept Cs and Ds as normal.

It's a false choice. The fact that that is happening with a few TJ students at the moment is not justification for scrapping a plan that has improved access to TJ.

And it's also not catastrophic for kids to get an occasional C or D. It's been happening at TJ for decades and in some cases, it's a great chance for kids to actually experience and overcome academic adversity. Plenty of kids have been getting Cs and Ds at TJ for as long as it's existed.

Not like these days.
There was literally an email from the math department to math 4 students saying:
"The teachers wrote:

These scores are deeply disappointing, and are the lowest scores we’ve ever seen as Math 4 teachers on a Final Exam."

https://fairfaxgop.org/tj-math-teachers-note-lowering-of-standards/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ MathCounts, AMC, Olympiads, ”

And those also aren’t offered everywhere. We aren’t in a “bad” pyramid either. Just a middle of the road one for FCPS.

Mathcounts allows students to sign up as non school competitors if their school isn't competing.
AMCs are offered by Fairfax math circle, FCAG, AoPS, and a number of other places.
Any motivated kid should be able to participate in both of these, even if it's not offered by their school.

But what if they can’t participate because they have to take care of their younger brother because both parents work?

If they're so overburdened with childcare or other responsibilities that they cannot even escape for a single day for an academic competition, how on earth are they going to have the time to be successful TJ students? TJ is a huge time sink, even for the kids who are minimally participating in all that TJ has to offer.

DP. That is for them to figure out, not for you to pretend concern over.

The idea that kids who have adversity to deal with should not have access to elite educational opportunities because they would take a different approach than you would is gross.

You do a disservice to people who are on your side when you make comments like this - making them appear uncaring and out of touch with reality.

That's not the idea. The idea is that when you eliminate all testing, because you feel that poor kids are incapable of prepping themselves, you eliminate all consideration of extracurricular achievements, because poor kids might be stuck babysitting the siblings, you eliminate consideration of math level, because even though 7th grade Algebra I is offered at every middle school and every single bright FCPS kid should have reasonable access, you feel that poor kids simply can't make it work, you eliminate teacher recommendations, because they might be biased, and you don't even require the kids to take all honors, because poor kids might not opt into them for whatever reason, there isn't much left.

You can either admit a broad spectrum of kids and accept that there will be high attrition at TJ, or you can admit a narrower group of kids and minimize attrition. Neither view is specifically incorrect. It comes down to whether you think it's worse to bar kids from TJ who have obstacles and haven't yet demonstrated that they can rise above those obstacles, or whether you think it's worse to set up a bunch of kids to wash out of TJ. For my part, I'm not a fan of setting kids up for failure or using kids to score political points. I hope all of the kids who are admitted understand what they're getting into and whether they really are prepared for the rigor.

I appreciate your response on some level, although I'm not sure that you really believe that both perspectives are valid.

While I recognize that most people on my side of the conversation disagree with this, I personally believe that teacher recommendations are an absolute necessity to return to the TJ admissions process. They should be similar to scantrons rather than long and narrative-based, and they should ask teachers to compare students against each other within their schools and classes. They should include ratings on grit, determination, academic integrity, contributions to the classroom environment, and an honest evaluation of whether the student is more interested in grades or learning. And they should be able to be completed in 5-10 minutes tops.

And while we're at it, afford each teacher the ability to write in greater depth about at most 3-5 students, whether to encourage admission or to warn about a student whose profile might appear worthy of TJ but who for other reasons (integrity or poor classroom ethic) would be a detriment to the educational environment.

I do believe that both perspectives are valid, providing that falling back to base school from TJ isn't too devastating for the kids and doesn't ruin their college chances too much. My biggest issue with the current admissions process is that the inputs are too sparse. I agree with you that teacher recommendations are necessary. I also would love to see PSAT 8/9 or SHSAT added, at the very least as a baseline competency test. The cynical side of me feels that FCPS designed the admissions to get the best press release possible, but they don't overly care about what happens to the kids after they've been admitted.

We are pretty much in agreement. I think if a PSAT or something similar were used as a baseline (i.e. clear the hurdle and then throw the score out before evaluating the kids that met the threshold), I could live with that as long as it didn't incur significant additional costs.

I also think that you might be on to something with respect to FCPS. It's important as part of this conversation to decouple FCPS and TJ - no one at TJ had any input whatsoever in the design of, implementation of, or execution of the current admissions process. I can guarantee you that the current TJ administration is deeply invested in the success of the kids who are currently attending, but I haven't seen evidence that FCPS is equally invested in that effort.

I'm appreciating the level of nuance in this conversation and the attempt to meet mutually agreeable goals through pragmatism. While I have no interest in serving the folks who just want to protect privileged access to elite educational opportunities, I believe that there's more we can do to ensure that it's the right kids from underrepresented schools and socioeconomic backgrounds who end up at TJ.

The "right" answer depends largely on what you think TJ is.
If you think TJ is a prize a ticket to better things then this new admissions process is an attempt to "spread the wealth" But this is simply an attempt to cash in on and drain TJs reputation. A reputation built by kids selected on merit. It was those meritorious kids that built this reputation that even makes this conversation possible.
If you think TJ is an opportunity then you can bend a bit at the margins but ultimately you have to pick the most qualified candidates without regard to extraneous factors.
The further you drift from that the less TJ will be an opportunity and the more it will simply be cashing in on and draining a reputation built by decades of students selected based on merit.

There seems to be sentiment that these these unqualified kids that are getting in represent a population that will never qualify for admissions to TJ on their merits and we must therefore let them in despite their lack of merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not easy to convince an above average MS who is used to mostly As, to be at the bottom of class at TJ and accept Cs and Ds as normal.

It's a false choice. The fact that that is happening with a few TJ students at the moment is not justification for scrapping a plan that has improved access to TJ.

And it's also not catastrophic for kids to get an occasional C or D. It's been happening at TJ for decades and in some cases, it's a great chance for kids to actually experience and overcome academic adversity. Plenty of kids have been getting Cs and Ds at TJ for as long as it's existed.

What has been happening at TJ? There are now 120+ admitted in the lowest TJ Math 1 course, historically it was not even a class full, less than 20. Many more getting Cs or Ds now.

As to the first point, so what? There have always been students at other high schools who didn't get into TJ even though they were highly advanced in math - now there are enough that those high schools will be able to justify raising the ceiling of their math department. Win.

DP here

This is not a win.
Those low performing schools never sent a lot of kids to TJ to begin with. They didn't have advanced math before and they don't have them now
The schools like carson that did send a lot of kids to TJ had advanced math before and they still have them. Their offerings haven't changed.

As to the second point, provide data to support your assertion.

We've seen the SOLs. We know that performance has dropped.
But you are right, we don't know what is going on with GPAs. I have heard that they have adjusted the curve and made other adjustments to avoid the worst grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ FCPS acknowledges that the same four top middle schools are where advanced STEM talent is nurtured to not just meet the TJ rigor but enroll in advanced courses there.”

DC has been doing great at TJ but still won’t have as much schedule space as others because she “only” started at Math 3 level (Alg 2). She could definitely have skipped a year and done Alg 1 in 6th but not all the centers do that - she would have had to go to the secondary school for that and no clue how transpiration for that would have worked. Not all centers have the same opportunity for the full acceleration spectrum that the “feeder” schools offer.

The majority of TJ students have always started HS with Algebra 2.
They take calculus in their junior year and they take electives in their senior year.
That is very typical.

No they have not. There are not that many kids taking Algebra 2 in MS. I ran the SOL numbers for the last three years. I actually went back and ran the numbers for a 10 year period, 2021 was the first year to have over 200 students take the Algebra 2 SOL in 8th grade. I am not going to hand jam the numbers though.

Algebra 1 in 6th grade:
2021-2022: 22 FCPS students
2022-2023: 31 FCPS Students
2023-2024: 25 FCPS students

Algebra 2 in 8th grade:
2021-2022: 221 FCPS students
2022-2023: 210 FCPS students
2023-2024 201 FCPS students

I would say that the majority of kids at TJ have had Geometry and are taking Algebra 2. Very few kids are offered the path to Algebra 1 in 5th grade and a small group of kids choose to take Geometry in the summer. If you read the various summer threads on Geometry in the summer it is either not that hard for a kid but a time suck or stupidly hard and the kids drop it or expunge the grade. It feels like a 50/50 split but there is going to be a bias based on who chooses to post.

Most of the kids at TJ will take Calculus as Juniors about a quarter will take Calculus as Sophomores.

Yup.

60% of the class of 2024 took geometry in 8th, per FCAG.

34% took algebra 2+.

I think everybody is on the same page.

Then the class of 2025 increase the kids who took 8th grade algebra from 5% to 35%.
Why did they do this?
There was a 1.5% quota at each school that they needed to fill.

They did it to expand access to kids who weren’t on the fast track from 3rd grade.

I think it’s great that more bright kids who took A1 in 8th have the opportunity to grow at TJ.

It's incorrect that you need to be on the fast track from 3rd grade to qualify for Algebra in 7th. My kid's gen ed advanced math class at a Title I school had kids jump up to the advanced math track every year. Even as late as 6th grade, there were still kids who jumped up to advanced math from regular math the previous year. Any kid who does well on the SOL from the previous year, does well on the beginning of year tests, and has the recommendation of the previous teacher can jump up to the higher math track.

Not every parent wants to rush their kids through the basics. One year of acceleration is plenty.

I thought Algebra in 7th was one year of acceleration.

That is two years of acceleration. The baseline path is algebra 1 in 9th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ FCPS acknowledges that the same four top middle schools are where advanced STEM talent is nurtured to not just meet the TJ rigor but enroll in advanced courses there.”

DC has been doing great at TJ but still won’t have as much schedule space as others because she “only” started at Math 3 level (Alg 2). She could definitely have skipped a year and done Alg 1 in 6th but not all the centers do that - she would have had to go to the secondary school for that and no clue how transpiration for that would have worked. Not all centers have the same opportunity for the full acceleration spectrum that the “feeder” schools offer.

The majority of TJ students have always started HS with Algebra 2.
They take calculus in their junior year and they take electives in their senior year.
That is very typical.

No they have not. There are not that many kids taking Algebra 2 in MS. I ran the SOL numbers for the last three years. I actually went back and ran the numbers for a 10 year period, 2021 was the first year to have over 200 students take the Algebra 2 SOL in 8th grade. I am not going to hand jam the numbers though.

Algebra 1 in 6th grade:
2021-2022: 22 FCPS students
2022-2023: 31 FCPS Students
2023-2024: 25 FCPS students

Algebra 2 in 8th grade:
2021-2022: 221 FCPS students
2022-2023: 210 FCPS students
2023-2024 201 FCPS students

I would say that the majority of kids at TJ have had Geometry and are taking Algebra 2. Very few kids are offered the path to Algebra 1 in 5th grade and a small group of kids choose to take Geometry in the summer. If you read the various summer threads on Geometry in the summer it is either not that hard for a kid but a time suck or stupidly hard and the kids drop it or expunge the grade. It feels like a 50/50 split but there is going to be a bias based on who chooses to post.

Most of the kids at TJ will take Calculus as Juniors about a quarter will take Calculus as Sophomores.

Yup.

60% of the class of 2024 took geometry in 8th, per FCAG.

34% took algebra 2+.

I think everybody is on the same page.

Then the class of 2025 increase the kids who took 8th grade algebra from 5% to 35%.
Why did they do this?
There was a 1.5% quota at each school that they needed to fill.

They did it to expand access to kids who weren’t on the fast track from 3rd grade.

I think it’s great that more bright kids who took A1 in 8th have the opportunity to grow at TJ.

TJ has always taken algebra 1 kids. Just not a lot because most kids that were good at math were taking at least geometry in 8th grade.
There is not a big universe of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th grade.

That is an extremely warped perspective. There are lots of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th. Some schools don't even accelerate more than that.

[Anonymous]

Teacher Recs at school like Carson had to be a nightmare. There are three teams for each grade and each team has 1 Teacher for each core subject. That means there are 3 math and science Teachers in 8th grade. Those Teachers are being asked to write how many letters of recommendation? That is probably 30 letters per for the Math and Science Teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ FCPS acknowledges that the same four top middle schools are where advanced STEM talent is nurtured to not just meet the TJ rigor but enroll in advanced courses there.”

DC has been doing great at TJ but still won’t have as much schedule space as others because she “only” started at Math 3 level (Alg 2). She could definitely have skipped a year and done Alg 1 in 6th but not all the centers do that - she would have had to go to the secondary school for that and no clue how transpiration for that would have worked. Not all centers have the same opportunity for the full acceleration spectrum that the “feeder” schools offer.

The majority of TJ students have always started HS with Algebra 2.
They take calculus in their junior year and they take electives in their senior year.
That is very typical.

No they have not. There are not that many kids taking Algebra 2 in MS. I ran the SOL numbers for the last three years. I actually went back and ran the numbers for a 10 year period, 2021 was the first year to have over 200 students take the Algebra 2 SOL in 8th grade. I am not going to hand jam the numbers though.

Algebra 1 in 6th grade:
2021-2022: 22 FCPS students
2022-2023: 31 FCPS Students
2023-2024: 25 FCPS students

Algebra 2 in 8th grade:
2021-2022: 221 FCPS students
2022-2023: 210 FCPS students
2023-2024 201 FCPS students

I would say that the majority of kids at TJ have had Geometry and are taking Algebra 2. Very few kids are offered the path to Algebra 1 in 5th grade and a small group of kids choose to take Geometry in the summer. If you read the various summer threads on Geometry in the summer it is either not that hard for a kid but a time suck or stupidly hard and the kids drop it or expunge the grade. It feels like a 50/50 split but there is going to be a bias based on who chooses to post.

Most of the kids at TJ will take Calculus as Juniors about a quarter will take Calculus as Sophomores.

Yup.

60% of the class of 2024 took geometry in 8th, per FCAG.

34% took algebra 2+.

I think everybody is on the same page.

Then the class of 2025 increase the kids who took 8th grade algebra from 5% to 35%.
Why did they do this?
There was a 1.5% quota at each school that they needed to fill.

They did it to expand access to kids who weren’t on the fast track from 3rd grade.

I think it’s great that more bright kids who took A1 in 8th have the opportunity to grow at TJ.

TJ has always taken algebra 1 kids. Just not a lot because most kids that were good at math were taking at least geometry in 8th grade.
There is not a big universe of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th grade.

That is an extremely warped perspective. There are lots of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th. Some schools don't even accelerate more than that.

In FCPS, there aren't many really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th. Every kid has access to advanced math if they earn high enough scores. Around 35% of the FCPS kids (around 4500 last year) take the IAAT and 7th grade SOL in 6th grade. The IAAT and SOL bar to get into Algebra is not especially high. The kids who fail to qualify for the most part aren't very strong at math.

I agree that *elsewhere*, there are a lot of smart kids taking algebra in 8th. It just isn't the case in FCPS or LCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ MathCounts, AMC, Olympiads, ”

And those also aren’t offered everywhere. We aren’t in a “bad” pyramid either. Just a middle of the road one for FCPS.

Mathcounts allows students to sign up as non school competitors if their school isn't competing.
AMCs are offered by Fairfax math circle, FCAG, AoPS, and a number of other places.
Any motivated kid should be able to participate in both of these, even if it's not offered by their school.

But what if they can’t participate because they have to take care of their younger brother because both parents work?

If they're so overburdened with childcare or other responsibilities that they cannot even escape for a single day for an academic competition, how on earth are they going to have the time to be successful TJ students? TJ is a huge time sink, even for the kids who are minimally participating in all that TJ has to offer.

DP. That is for them to figure out, not for you to pretend concern over.

The idea that kids who have adversity to deal with should not have access to elite educational opportunities because they would take a different approach than you would is gross.

You do a disservice to people who are on your side when you make comments like this - making them appear uncaring and out of touch with reality.

That's not the idea. The idea is that when you eliminate all testing, because you feel that poor kids are incapable of prepping themselves, you eliminate all consideration of extracurricular achievements, because poor kids might be stuck babysitting the siblings, you eliminate consideration of math level, because even though 7th grade Algebra I is offered at every middle school and every single bright FCPS kid should have reasonable access, you feel that poor kids simply can't make it work, you eliminate teacher recommendations, because they might be biased, and you don't even require the kids to take all honors, because poor kids might not opt into them for whatever reason, there isn't much left.

You can either admit a broad spectrum of kids and accept that there will be high attrition at TJ, or you can admit a narrower group of kids and minimize attrition. Neither view is specifically incorrect. It comes down to whether you think it's worse to bar kids from TJ who have obstacles and haven't yet demonstrated that they can rise above those obstacles, or whether you think it's worse to set up a bunch of kids to wash out of TJ. For my part, I'm not a fan of setting kids up for failure or using kids to score political points. I hope all of the kids who are admitted understand what they're getting into and whether they really are prepared for the rigor.

I appreciate your response on some level, although I'm not sure that you really believe that both perspectives are valid.

While I recognize that most people on my side of the conversation disagree with this, I personally believe that teacher recommendations are an absolute necessity to return to the TJ admissions process. They should be similar to scantrons rather than long and narrative-based, and they should ask teachers to compare students against each other within their schools and classes. They should include ratings on grit, determination, academic integrity, contributions to the classroom environment, and an honest evaluation of whether the student is more interested in grades or learning. And they should be able to be completed in 5-10 minutes tops.

And while we're at it, afford each teacher the ability to write in greater depth about at most 3-5 students, whether to encourage admission or to warn about a student whose profile might appear worthy of TJ but who for other reasons (integrity or poor classroom ethic) would be a detriment to the educational environment.

I do believe that both perspectives are valid, providing that falling back to base school from TJ isn't too devastating for the kids and doesn't ruin their college chances too much. My biggest issue with the current admissions process is that the inputs are too sparse. I agree with you that teacher recommendations are necessary. I also would love to see PSAT 8/9 or SHSAT added, at the very least as a baseline competency test. The cynical side of me feels that FCPS designed the admissions to get the best press release possible, but they don't overly care about what happens to the kids after they've been admitted.

We are pretty much in agreement. I think if a PSAT or something similar were used as a baseline (i.e. clear the hurdle and then throw the score out before evaluating the kids that met the threshold), I could live with that as long as it didn't incur significant additional costs.

I also think that you might be on to something with respect to FCPS. It's important as part of this conversation to decouple FCPS and TJ - no one at TJ had any input whatsoever in the design of, implementation of, or execution of the current admissions process. I can guarantee you that the current TJ administration is deeply invested in the success of the kids who are currently attending, but I haven't seen evidence that FCPS is equally invested in that effort.

I'm appreciating the level of nuance in this conversation and the attempt to meet mutually agreeable goals through pragmatism. While I have no interest in serving the folks who just want to protect privileged access to elite educational opportunities, I believe that there's more we can do to ensure that it's the right kids from underrepresented schools and socioeconomic backgrounds who end up at TJ.

The part that frustrates me the most is that they aren't even looking at SOL scores. As a baseline check, kids should need at least a 480 in 7th grade reading, at least a 480 in Algebra I if the kid took that in 7th, and at least a 500 if the kid took M7H. At the end of 8th, any kid who didn't at least score 450+ (or 480+, or some other threshold) in their 8th grade SOL exams should have their TJ admissions rescinded.

I'm all for giving disadvantaged kids a chance. If the SOL scores show that a kid doesn't have the foundation to succeed at TJ, then there's no reason to set that kid up to fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ FCPS acknowledges that the same four top middle schools are where advanced STEM talent is nurtured to not just meet the TJ rigor but enroll in advanced courses there.”

DC has been doing great at TJ but still won’t have as much schedule space as others because she “only” started at Math 3 level (Alg 2). She could definitely have skipped a year and done Alg 1 in 6th but not all the centers do that - she would have had to go to the secondary school for that and no clue how transpiration for that would have worked. Not all centers have the same opportunity for the full acceleration spectrum that the “feeder” schools offer.

The majority of TJ students have always started HS with Algebra 2.
They take calculus in their junior year and they take electives in their senior year.
That is very typical.

No they have not. There are not that many kids taking Algebra 2 in MS. I ran the SOL numbers for the last three years. I actually went back and ran the numbers for a 10 year period, 2021 was the first year to have over 200 students take the Algebra 2 SOL in 8th grade. I am not going to hand jam the numbers though.

Algebra 1 in 6th grade:
2021-2022: 22 FCPS students
2022-2023: 31 FCPS Students
2023-2024: 25 FCPS students

Algebra 2 in 8th grade:
2021-2022: 221 FCPS students
2022-2023: 210 FCPS students
2023-2024 201 FCPS students

I would say that the majority of kids at TJ have had Geometry and are taking Algebra 2. Very few kids are offered the path to Algebra 1 in 5th grade and a small group of kids choose to take Geometry in the summer. If you read the various summer threads on Geometry in the summer it is either not that hard for a kid but a time suck or stupidly hard and the kids drop it or expunge the grade. It feels like a 50/50 split but there is going to be a bias based on who chooses to post.

Most of the kids at TJ will take Calculus as Juniors about a quarter will take Calculus as Sophomores.

Yup.

60% of the class of 2024 took geometry in 8th, per FCAG.

34% took algebra 2+.

I think everybody is on the same page.

Then the class of 2025 increase the kids who took 8th grade algebra from 5% to 35%.
Why did they do this?
There was a 1.5% quota at each school that they needed to fill.

They did it to expand access to kids who weren’t on the fast track from 3rd grade.

I think it’s great that more bright kids who took A1 in 8th have the opportunity to grow at TJ.

TJ has always taken algebra 1 kids. Just not a lot because most kids that were good at math were taking at least geometry in 8th grade.
There is not a big universe of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th grade.

That is an extremely warped perspective. There are lots of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th. Some schools don't even accelerate more than that.

What middle school in FCPS does not have geometry available in 8th grade?

There are not lots of really smart kids taking algebra in 8th grade. That doesn't mean everyone else is stupid, they're just not "really smart"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ FCPS acknowledges that the same four top middle schools are where advanced STEM talent is nurtured to not just meet the TJ rigor but enroll in advanced courses there.”

DC has been doing great at TJ but still won’t have as much schedule space as others because she “only” started at Math 3 level (Alg 2). She could definitely have skipped a year and done Alg 1 in 6th but not all the centers do that - she would have had to go to the secondary school for that and no clue how transpiration for that would have worked. Not all centers have the same opportunity for the full acceleration spectrum that the “feeder” schools offer.

The majority of TJ students have always started HS with Algebra 2.
They take calculus in their junior year and they take electives in their senior year.
That is very typical.

No they have not. There are not that many kids taking Algebra 2 in MS. I ran the SOL numbers for the last three years. I actually went back and ran the numbers for a 10 year period, 2021 was the first year to have over 200 students take the Algebra 2 SOL in 8th grade. I am not going to hand jam the numbers though.

Algebra 1 in 6th grade:
2021-2022: 22 FCPS students
2022-2023: 31 FCPS Students
2023-2024: 25 FCPS students

Algebra 2 in 8th grade:
2021-2022: 221 FCPS students
2022-2023: 210 FCPS students
2023-2024 201 FCPS students

I would say that the majority of kids at TJ have had Geometry and are taking Algebra 2. Very few kids are offered the path to Algebra 1 in 5th grade and a small group of kids choose to take Geometry in the summer. If you read the various summer threads on Geometry in the summer it is either not that hard for a kid but a time suck or stupidly hard and the kids drop it or expunge the grade. It feels like a 50/50 split but there is going to be a bias based on who chooses to post.

Most of the kids at TJ will take Calculus as Juniors about a quarter will take Calculus as Sophomores.

Yup.

60% of the class of 2024 took geometry in 8th, per FCAG.

34% took algebra 2+.

I think everybody is on the same page.

Then the class of 2025 increase the kids who took 8th grade algebra from 5% to 35%.
Why did they do this?
There was a 1.5% quota at each school that they needed to fill.

They did it to expand access to kids who weren’t on the fast track from 3rd grade.

I think it’s great that more bright kids who took A1 in 8th have the opportunity to grow at TJ.

TJ has always taken algebra 1 kids. Just not a lot because most kids that were good at math were taking at least geometry in 8th grade.
There is not a big universe of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th grade.

That is an extremely warped perspective. There are lots of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th. Some schools don't even accelerate more than that.

What middle school in FCPS does not have geometry available in 8th grade?

There are not lots of really smart kids taking algebra in 8th grade. That doesn't mean everyone else is stupid, they're just not "really smart"

The high FARMs MS have fewer kids in Algebra 1 in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade. Part of the reason why there is a push to get more kids into Algebra 1 in 8th grade is because there is a collection of MSs that have only one class of Algebra 1 H in 8th grade, never mind Geometry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ FCPS acknowledges that the same four top middle schools are where advanced STEM talent is nurtured to not just meet the TJ rigor but enroll in advanced courses there.”

DC has been doing great at TJ but still won’t have as much schedule space as others because she “only” started at Math 3 level (Alg 2). She could definitely have skipped a year and done Alg 1 in 6th but not all the centers do that - she would have had to go to the secondary school for that and no clue how transpiration for that would have worked. Not all centers have the same opportunity for the full acceleration spectrum that the “feeder” schools offer.

The majority of TJ students have always started HS with Algebra 2.
They take calculus in their junior year and they take electives in their senior year.
That is very typical.

No they have not. There are not that many kids taking Algebra 2 in MS. I ran the SOL numbers for the last three years. I actually went back and ran the numbers for a 10 year period, 2021 was the first year to have over 200 students take the Algebra 2 SOL in 8th grade. I am not going to hand jam the numbers though.

Algebra 1 in 6th grade:
2021-2022: 22 FCPS students
2022-2023: 31 FCPS Students
2023-2024: 25 FCPS students

Algebra 2 in 8th grade:
2021-2022: 221 FCPS students
2022-2023: 210 FCPS students
2023-2024 201 FCPS students

I would say that the majority of kids at TJ have had Geometry and are taking Algebra 2. Very few kids are offered the path to Algebra 1 in 5th grade and a small group of kids choose to take Geometry in the summer. If you read the various summer threads on Geometry in the summer it is either not that hard for a kid but a time suck or stupidly hard and the kids drop it or expunge the grade. It feels like a 50/50 split but there is going to be a bias based on who chooses to post.

Most of the kids at TJ will take Calculus as Juniors about a quarter will take Calculus as Sophomores.

Yup.

60% of the class of 2024 took geometry in 8th, per FCAG.

34% took algebra 2+.

I think everybody is on the same page.

Then the class of 2025 increase the kids who took 8th grade algebra from 5% to 35%.
Why did they do this?
There was a 1.5% quota at each school that they needed to fill.

They did it to expand access to kids who weren’t on the fast track from 3rd grade.

I think it’s great that more bright kids who took A1 in 8th have the opportunity to grow at TJ.

TJ has always taken algebra 1 kids. Just not a lot because most kids that were good at math were taking at least geometry in 8th grade.
There is not a big universe of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th grade.

That is an extremely warped perspective. There are lots of really smart kids taking algebra 1 in 8th. Some schools don't even accelerate more than that.

What middle school in FCPS does not have geometry available in 8th grade?

There are not lots of really smart kids taking algebra in 8th grade. That doesn't mean everyone else is stupid, they're just not "really smart"

The high FARMs MS have fewer kids in Algebra 1 in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade. Part of the reason why there is a push to get more kids into Algebra 1 in 8th grade is because there is a collection of MSs that have only one class of Algebra 1 H in 8th grade, never mind Geometry.

Oh. Which school is this? Do you have a citation for that?
When I run the VDOE numbers, Poe MS has the smallest number of 8th grade Algebra I students at 110. That's a solid 4 classes. Key, Poe, and Westfield are the only schools that don't have a full 8th grade Geometry class, but they show at least some kids taking the geometry SOL. If they eliminated MS AAP centers, every single FCPS high school would have at least one full 8th grade Geometry class.