Petition: Later MCPS school start times

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Why are you here then. We don't care what private does, this is MCPS.

Fun fact, I have one of each. On the same sports team.

Transportation arguments are valid, but there are solutions.

My argument is that getting out of school after 3 is not a huge scheduling problem for the remainder of the day, and big public systems other places have figured it out (CA).

For all of those saying “how is there time”…
*public school kid has 3-330 extra time with which they typically sit on phone
Practice 4-630
Dinner 645-715
715-1015 - homework, leisure, hygiene
1030 bed (average) - this is late for one of mine and early for the other who is just wired as a night owl

Private school kid gets up to 10h sleep, while public could get 7-8h (not terrible if it’s 11-630, but this is a kid who has trouble sleeping before midnight and needs 8+h)

That's not how my kid's day looks. You forgot, when kids are in music and sports and also in school activities, not to mention private lessons too. Or, kids who are working.

And, what about parents who need their older kids to watch the younger ones.

Private school kids aren't getting more sleep.

If your kid has trouble sleeping, get a sleep study.

Sounds like these kids are doing too much and are over scheduled! Everyone needs to make choices.

My kid doesn't have trouble sleeping, they have a common teen body clock and would naturally sleep midnight - 10a if that was how the world worked. Obviously, it doesn't, so we do all the things to do our best.

But again, my argument is the only difference in my kids' after school schedule is 3-3:30, where one is finishing class/commuting and the other has discretionary time.

Your kid need to go to bed earlier. Simple. They will adjust to going to bed earlier. The rest of us should not be in on ringed by your kids refusing to go to bed. Are you even mcps? We made the choice to support our kids interests. Yes, it is a lot but they make it work and so do we.

I’m sorry for your kids that you don’t support their interests and gave up parenting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Why are you here then. We don't care what private does, this is MCPS.

Fun fact, I have one of each. On the same sports team.

Transportation arguments are valid, but there are solutions.

My argument is that getting out of school after 3 is not a huge scheduling problem for the remainder of the day, and big public systems other places have figured it out (CA).

For all of those saying “how is there time”…
*public school kid has 3-330 extra time with which they typically sit on phone
Practice 4-630
Dinner 645-715
715-1015 - homework, leisure, hygiene
1030 bed (average) - this is late for one of mine and early for the other who is just wired as a night owl

Private school kid gets up to 10h sleep, while public could get 7-8h (not terrible if it’s 11-630, but this is a kid who has trouble sleeping before midnight and needs 8+h)

That's not how my kid's day looks. You forgot, when kids are in music and sports and also in school activities, not to mention private lessons too. Or, kids who are working.

And, what about parents who need their older kids to watch the younger ones.

Private school kids aren't getting more sleep.

If your kid has trouble sleeping, get a sleep study.

Sounds like these kids are doing too much and are over scheduled! Everyone needs to make choices.

My kid doesn't have trouble sleeping, they have a common teen body clock and would naturally sleep midnight - 10a if that was how the world worked. Obviously, it doesn't, so we do all the things to do our best.

But again, my argument is the only difference in my kids' after school schedule is 3-3:30, where one is finishing class/commuting and the other has discretionary time.

Your kid need to go to bed earlier. Simple. They will adjust to going to bed earlier. The rest of us should not be in on ringed by your kids refusing to go to bed. Are you even mcps? We made the choice to support our kids interests. Yes, it is a lot but they make it work and so do we.

I’m sorry for your kids that you don’t support their interests and gave up parenting.

Another poster denying reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Why are you here then. We don't care what private does, this is MCPS.

Fun fact, I have one of each. On the same sports team.

Transportation arguments are valid, but there are solutions.

My argument is that getting out of school after 3 is not a huge scheduling problem for the remainder of the day, and big public systems other places have figured it out (CA).

For all of those saying “how is there time”…
*public school kid has 3-330 extra time with which they typically sit on phone
Practice 4-630
Dinner 645-715
715-1015 - homework, leisure, hygiene
1030 bed (average) - this is late for one of mine and early for the other who is just wired as a night owl

Private school kid gets up to 10h sleep, while public could get 7-8h (not terrible if it’s 11-630, but this is a kid who has trouble sleeping before midnight and needs 8+h)

That's not how my kid's day looks. You forgot, when kids are in music and sports and also in school activities, not to mention private lessons too. Or, kids who are working.

And, what about parents who need their older kids to watch the younger ones.

Private school kids aren't getting more sleep.

If your kid has trouble sleeping, get a sleep study.

Sounds like these kids are doing too much and are over scheduled! Everyone needs to make choices.

My kid doesn't have trouble sleeping, they have a common teen body clock and would naturally sleep midnight - 10a if that was how the world worked. Obviously, it doesn't, so we do all the things to do our best.

But again, my argument is the only difference in my kids' after school schedule is 3-3:30, where one is finishing class/commuting and the other has discretionary time.

DCUM maxim: what works for my kid works for everyone's kid!
And its corollary: what doesn't work for my kid doesn't work for anyone's kid!

[Anonymous]

I urge you to sign because if you spend some time researching the issue, you will see that studies show that teen mental health improves with later school start times. We have a mental health crisis among our youngsters and anything that can ameliorate mental health even by a small amount is worth doing in my opinion

[Anonymous]

I urge you to ignore this petition. The matter has been settled. The petition comes up every couple of months because someone hates to parent their children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Why are you here then. We don't care what private does, this is MCPS.

Fun fact, I have one of each. On the same sports team.

Transportation arguments are valid, but there are solutions.

My argument is that getting out of school after 3 is not a huge scheduling problem for the remainder of the day, and big public systems other places have figured it out (CA).

For all of those saying “how is there time”…
*public school kid has 3-330 extra time with which they typically sit on phone
Practice 4-630
Dinner 645-715
715-1015 - homework, leisure, hygiene
1030 bed (average) - this is late for one of mine and early for the other who is just wired as a night owl

Private school kid gets up to 10h sleep, while public could get 7-8h (not terrible if it’s 11-630, but this is a kid who has trouble sleeping before midnight and needs 8+h)

That's not how my kid's day looks. You forgot, when kids are in music and sports and also in school activities, not to mention private lessons too. Or, kids who are working.

And, what about parents who need their older kids to watch the younger ones.

Private school kids aren't getting more sleep.

If your kid has trouble sleeping, get a sleep study.

Sounds like these kids are doing too much and are over scheduled! Everyone needs to make choices.

My kid doesn't have trouble sleeping, they have a common teen body clock and would naturally sleep midnight - 10a if that was how the world worked. Obviously, it doesn't, so we do all the things to do our best.

But again, my argument is the only difference in my kids' after school schedule is 3-3:30, where one is finishing class/commuting and the other has discretionary time.

Your kid need to go to bed earlier. Simple. They will adjust to going to bed earlier. The rest of us should not be in on ringed by your kids refusing to go to bed. Are you even mcps? We made the choice to support our kids interests. Yes, it is a lot but they make it work and so do we.

I’m sorry for your kids that you don’t support their interests and gave up parenting.

The poster who suggested they simply adjust the time on their clocks forward a couple hours was spot on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I urge you to sign because if you spend some time researching the issue, you will see that studies show that teen mental health improves with later school start times. We have a mental health crisis among our youngsters and anything that can ameliorate mental health even by a small amount is worth doing in my opinion

Worth doing HOW? What new ideas do you have, which were not already addressed in the 2013 bell times report?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I urge you to ignore this petition. The matter has been settled. The petition comes up every couple of months because someone hates to parent their children.

Ah, DCUM, where "to parent" means whatever I say it means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

I’ve worked in high schools with 7:30am start times and 9am start times. 1st period always contains sleepy kids. Pushing start times back won’t change a thing.

Perhaps students shouldn’t stay up on their phones until 2am. I can’t tell you how many emails I get sent at 1:30am and 3am.

FFS. Stop. An hour and a half would undoubtedly make a difference, even if not ALL of the students would be bright eyed and bushy tailed.

We all know you just don’t want to stay later.

Your proposed or supposed benefit to teens is not in fact one. This teacher who has worked in school districts with 9 am start times is telling you this based on their firsthand experience and you’re dismissing it because it counters your predetermined stance?

Give it a rest. Or make a better argument because the one you’re advocating doesn’t hold water for anyone who knows how adolescents really behave.

Hilarious! Let’s make decisions for ALL students because Ms. Blatherdoo says SHE knows better than all those idiot sleep researchers, and the know-nothing pediatricians, and all of that pesky scientific research, because when she taught a class at 9:00 some kids were still sleepy!!

I suspect Ms. Blatherdoo is a science teacher based on the appalling scientific illiteracy on display in this thread.

Tell me what your determined threshold is for percentage of students who will get more sleep based on the schedule change.

If we make this switch and only 20% of teens, is still worth it?

Can we guarantee that with the schedule change that at least 50% of teens will get more sleep? If so, how?

We’re willing to hear your argument, but you’re gonna have to present a fully fleshed out one. Not this half-baked crap you’re trotting out.

Can the late-start crowd please address these points?

What threshold of secondary students getting increased sleep makes the change worth it? If so, what is that threshold and what measures do we have in place or need to be put in place to get to that threshold?

Additionally, what forcing mechanisms are in place or need to be put in place so that we teens don't squander the "extra time" you all exclaim is vital for teen health?

If the late-start advocates can answer those two questions, then this is a conversation worth having. Until then, this is a fantasy with no practical hooks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

I’ve worked in high schools with 7:30am start times and 9am start times. 1st period always contains sleepy kids. Pushing start times back won’t change a thing.

Perhaps students shouldn’t stay up on their phones until 2am. I can’t tell you how many emails I get sent at 1:30am and 3am.

FFS. Stop. An hour and a half would undoubtedly make a difference, even if not ALL of the students would be bright eyed and bushy tailed.

We all know you just don’t want to stay later.

Your proposed or supposed benefit to teens is not in fact one. This teacher who has worked in school districts with 9 am start times is telling you this based on their firsthand experience and you’re dismissing it because it counters your predetermined stance?

Give it a rest. Or make a better argument because the one you’re advocating doesn’t hold water for anyone who knows how adolescents really behave.

Hilarious! Let’s make decisions for ALL students because Ms. Blatherdoo says SHE knows better than all those idiot sleep researchers, and the know-nothing pediatricians, and all of that pesky scientific research, because when she taught a class at 9:00 some kids were still sleepy!!

I suspect Ms. Blatherdoo is a science teacher based on the appalling scientific illiteracy on display in this thread.

You lose a lot of legitimacy with your silly name calling. Keep in mind there are teachers on this thread. We are used to immaturity and we don’t get offended by it.

I am unmoved by your comment. Possibly because I AM offended by scientifically illiterate teachers sticking their noses into a conversation that is clearly over their heads.

(And for the functionally illiterate teachers, note that I am not saying that all teachers are scientifically illiterate.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

I’ve worked in high schools with 7:30am start times and 9am start times. 1st period always contains sleepy kids. Pushing start times back won’t change a thing.

Perhaps students shouldn’t stay up on their phones until 2am. I can’t tell you how many emails I get sent at 1:30am and 3am.

FFS. Stop. An hour and a half would undoubtedly make a difference, even if not ALL of the students would be bright eyed and bushy tailed.

We all know you just don’t want to stay later.

I’m the PP. You’re so wrong. I would LOVE to stay later. That would be ideal.

But what’s the point? It won’t make a difference. I speak from actual experience, as a parent AND a teacher.

I speak from actual experience as a parent and a scientist. Your blanket “it won’t make a difference” is worth absolutely nothing.

It’s just, like, your opinion, man.

Well, scientist, explain it to us then. How will later times DIRECTLY and CLEARLY translate to more sleep for high school students?

Because, scientist, high schoolers have pesky habits like staying up late texting, watching movies, cramming for tests. Some high schoolers will be attending more 6am practices and rehearsals since there will be less time after school for these events.

So please explain it to those of us on this thread who raise or teach teenagers. How will a later start time guarantee more sleep?

The late-start advocates don’t have an answer to your common sense questions. They’re empty vessels.

Early start times make it IMPOSSIBLE for the AVERAGE teen to get enough sleep, due to clearly established and undisputed circadian rhythm shifts in the teenage years.

Later start times will make it POSSIBLE for the AVERAGE teen to get enough sleep, but OBVIOUSLY if the teen is staying up even later BY CHOICE or getting up earlier BY CHOICE, they will not get more sleep!

One cannot “parent” a teen into sleeping earlier than their bodies are physically capable of falling asleep (early start time situation), but one COULD “parent” a child into sleeping at a developmentally appropriate bedtime (later start time situation). That does not mean that they WILL, merely that the OPTION to get enough sleep would be on the table.

This is really not a difficult concept to understand. I wonder if some of the advocates for these early start times are sleep deprived themselves.

[Anonymous]

Even if they move the start time to 8 am, it would be an improvement

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

I’ve worked in high schools with 7:30am start times and 9am start times. 1st period always contains sleepy kids. Pushing start times back won’t change a thing.

Perhaps students shouldn’t stay up on their phones until 2am. I can’t tell you how many emails I get sent at 1:30am and 3am.

FFS. Stop. An hour and a half would undoubtedly make a difference, even if not ALL of the students would be bright eyed and bushy tailed.

We all know you just don’t want to stay later.

I’m the PP. You’re so wrong. I would LOVE to stay later. That would be ideal.

But what’s the point? It won’t make a difference. I speak from actual experience, as a parent AND a teacher.

I speak from actual experience as a parent and a scientist. Your blanket “it won’t make a difference” is worth absolutely nothing.

It’s just, like, your opinion, man.

Well, scientist, explain it to us then. How will later times DIRECTLY and CLEARLY translate to more sleep for high school students?

Because, scientist, high schoolers have pesky habits like staying up late texting, watching movies, cramming for tests. Some high schoolers will be attending more 6am practices and rehearsals since there will be less time after school for these events.

So please explain it to those of us on this thread who raise or teach teenagers. How will a later start time guarantee more sleep?

The late-start advocates don’t have an answer to your common sense questions. They’re empty vessels.

Early start times make it IMPOSSIBLE for the AVERAGE teen to get enough sleep, due to clearly established and undisputed circadian rhythm shifts in the teenage years.

Later start times will make it POSSIBLE for the AVERAGE teen to get enough sleep, but OBVIOUSLY if the teen is staying up even later BY CHOICE or getting up earlier BY CHOICE, they will not get more sleep!

One cannot “parent” a teen into sleeping earlier than their bodies are physically capable of falling asleep (early start time situation), but one COULD “parent” a child into sleeping at a developmentally appropriate bedtime (later start time situation). That does not mean that they WILL, merely that the OPTION to get enough sleep would be on the table.

This is really not a difficult concept to understand. I wonder if some of the advocates for these early start times are sleep deprived themselves.

What measures are in place or will be put in place and monitor and track that we're getting the benefits for the AVERAGE teen as you claim?

Basically, your whole proposal hinges on hopes and dreams with no accountability measures. Which is why I said it's a fantasy with no practicalities behind it.

YES, in an ideal scenario, teens DO perform better with more sleep. Unfortunately, teens don't live in ideal scenarios. They struggle with responsibility, discipline and competing priorities which cause them to not sleep as much as they should.

If you're not solving for that, pushing the start time back alone will not deliver on the benefits you and your camp are promising. Stop lying to the people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even if they move the start time to 8 am, it would be an improvement

My teen had to wake up for 9:30 am MCPS junior day event at Wheaton High School. Guess what? I still had to wake him up at 8:30 am.

The start time doesn't matter. Teens will sleep in and stay up late regardless of the start time. Unless you move it to 12 pm, which is not practical for obvious reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

I’ve worked in high schools with 7:30am start times and 9am start times. 1st period always contains sleepy kids. Pushing start times back won’t change a thing.

Perhaps students shouldn’t stay up on their phones until 2am. I can’t tell you how many emails I get sent at 1:30am and 3am.

FFS. Stop. An hour and a half would undoubtedly make a difference, even if not ALL of the students would be bright eyed and bushy tailed.

We all know you just don’t want to stay later.

Your proposed or supposed benefit to teens is not in fact one. This teacher who has worked in school districts with 9 am start times is telling you this based on their firsthand experience and you’re dismissing it because it counters your predetermined stance?

Give it a rest. Or make a better argument because the one you’re advocating doesn’t hold water for anyone who knows how adolescents really behave.

Hilarious! Let’s make decisions for ALL students because Ms. Blatherdoo says SHE knows better than all those idiot sleep researchers, and the know-nothing pediatricians, and all of that pesky scientific research, because when she taught a class at 9:00 some kids were still sleepy!!

I suspect Ms. Blatherdoo is a science teacher based on the appalling scientific illiteracy on display in this thread.

You lose a lot of legitimacy with your silly name calling. Keep in mind there are teachers on this thread. We are used to immaturity and we don’t get offended by it.

I am unmoved by your comment. Possibly because I AM offended by scientifically illiterate teachers sticking their noses into a conversation that is clearly over their heads.

(And for the functionally illiterate teachers, note that I am not saying that all teachers are scientifically illiterate.)

Ugh. I’m not the “insufferable” poster on DCUM, but I’m going to borrow it for this post.

Mr. Scientist here is insufferable. If your argument is so unconvincing that you have to resort to insults, then you’re not doing that well.