FCPS High School Poverty and Enrollment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's be honest. No one thinks that their high performing kid will be directly academically impacted by poor students. The issue is the social interaction and influence. Some Middle class kids like to play pretend with problems they don't actually have and/or socioeconomic class they are not a part of. Obviously this can get them in all sorts of trouble that could derail them in life.

Obviously, you are white and naive to make such a statement. Look at minorities, from middle-class households, and even low-income ones, that face bullying for 'acting white.' The problem only worsens when school administrators don't implement discipline in the name of 'equity.'

Black and Brown high performers have to be able to 'throw down,' and they are not being told they are 'privileged' as a further disadvantage. This issue only worsens under the assumption that there aren't lower-income Asian households, who are considered white-adjacent. Do you think that a white child from an upper-middle-class neighborhood won't face challenges when the administration spoons to others the message that they are 'oppressors?'

Have you ever listened to the music or artistic expression of Chris Rock, Kevin Hart, or any successful comedian or rapper? How many would even think of sending their kids to the hoods they grew up in? None.

It's not a matter of race, but your point, yes, high-performing kids (from any background) can be directly impacted by poor students in environments where bad behavior is allowed to flourish.

Reading comprehension is so key across all races. My post specifically noted that they play pretend in a socioeconomic class that they don't belong to. This includes black and brown middle class and up. The issue of middle class parents not wanting to send their kids to a school like Lewis is particularly true for black kids who will be given comparatively harsher punishments for the same behavior as their counterparts.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

DP but the bigger point is that the general preference for AP will continue to paralyze FCPS with respect to potential HS boundary changes involving schools that are currently IB schools. Yes, they could have a couple of IB schools to accommodate the families that prefer IB but there’s no clear justification for having 8 and good reason to believe that it’s contributed to the ongoing decline of multiple pyramids.

It not the preference for AP, it's the preference to not have your kid in a failing school. It doesn't matter what program MVHS offers - Hayfield parents would never want their kids sent there

I think what PP and others are saying is that if you get rid of the IB at some of the lower schools, and put AP in, students will not have the choice to "opt out" of those lower schools, and with the right communication, perhaps those families will go back to their base schools in enough numbers that the schools won't be considered so bad. By having IB, FCPS is giving parents a way to get out of certain schools ... which causes them to have an abundance of low-performing kids, and few high-performing kids... which becomes a vicious cycle.

What are the numbers though? People who pupil place have to provide their own transportation--and they can only go if the receiving school has room. I'd want to see how many people pupil place to know whether would make a measurable difference. In addition, if it's not an option, how many people would just move out at HS then. The people who have the means to pupil place and provide transportation are the people who have the means to move (and who would be more likely prioritize education to move on that basis). I think the issue is not IB/AP, it's that high poverty schools are challenging.

Which is why it was so bad for Fairfax to concentrate poverty in the first place. They actively made changes to boundaries that took wealthier families out of poorer schools and moved them to wealthier schools. The School Board and Superintendent weren't just innocent bystanders. Now it is broken beyond repair.

Where/when did they do this?

Annandale to both Woodson and Lake Braddock, Lee (Lewis) to West Springfield.

Also refused to use the available space at Mount Vernon and instead enlarged West Potomac to 3000.

Fairfax has fed the vicious cycle - they have essentially written off certain pyramids.

What does adding even 20% MC/UMC do for a school like Lewis?

Allows it to have a baseball team? Didn’t Lewis have to cancel some sports last year due to lack of interest?

All levels of baseball and softball were outright canceled. Field hockey had 5 or 6 girls total at the end but they still played their games. The football roster shrinks every year as enrollment has fallen. Quite disheartening actually. It isn't even about the racial-political games, Lewis kids don't deserve to be so under-enrolled in such a large county.

This really doesn’t make sense as there are 1690 kids there. Schools half that size field teams. I suspect some of these sports just are appealing to the student body.

North Springfield little league feeds into Lewis and has a very robust program. Lewis should be able to field 1-2 baseball teams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can you see how the vicious downward spiral happens?

It happens--not because of boundary adjustments--but because of changing demographics across the county.

With 30% FARMS, you are going to have different needs. It is up to FCPS to meet those needs--not cover them up with boundary changes.

Sounds to me like a West Springfield poster afraid there could be boundary changes. Or another school in a similar situation. You got yours, screw what happens to everyone else. That seems to be the general attitude in this county.

I don’t know how you have one school with under 1700 kids next to another wealthier, renovated school with almost 2700 kids. It seems like a blatant civil rights violation. Shame on this school board.

It is not a civil right violation. What a ridiculous statement.

West Springfield has very tiny boundaries compared to most fcps.

It has a large enrollement because tons of older families sold to young families who sought out WSHS zoned houses, around 2012-2016, resulting in a huge glut of elementary kids in a very concentrated area. These kids are now in high school

In many of the WSHS feeder neighborhoods, the number of students from the classes of 2024, 2025 and 2026 are HUGE and have been for many years. In one street in our neighborhood, there are 11 class of 2024 students. This is repeated over and over in the area. Those classes, plus a couple of years below that to a lesser degree hit that sweet spot of neighborhood turnover from empty nesters selling + low interest rates.

The current elementary grades in our neighborhood have far fewer students than the classes of 24, 25 and 26. Then it seems the kinder, 1st and 2nd grade classes have a lot of kids, again from another cluster of empty nesters selling during the 2% interest window.

The bloated enrollment is temporary and is a natural ebb and flow.

Besides military families really seek out this high school for a shared community culture. Switching a neighborhood or two to Lewis will not change this as those families will just avoid the Lewis neighborhoods.

I do think WSHS and any capacity school should do an enrollment audit at open house, requiring a utility bill showing residency in order to pick up a student schedule. Any student without proof of residency should return to their assigned school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pick the ones that are on the same side of I95 as Lewis. Easy.

none of the WSHS zoned elementary schools are on the Lewis side of the mixing bowl.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pick the ones that are on the same side of I95 as Lewis. Easy.

Wonderful idea. So WSHS should rightfully own Crestwood and Lynbrook catchments, as they are on the west side of 95, correct?

I'm sure WSHS would gladly accept those two communities into their school with open arms.

You don't make any sense.

Geographically this is a ridiculous idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's be honest. No one thinks that their high performing kid will be directly academically impacted by poor students. The issue is the social interaction and influence. Some Middle class kids like to play pretend with problems they don't actually have and/or socioeconomic class they are not a part of. Obviously this can get them in all sorts of trouble that could derail them in life.

Obviously, you are white and naive to make such a statement. Look at minorities, from middle-class households, and even low-income ones, that face bullying for 'acting white.' The problem only worsens when school administrators don't implement discipline in the name of 'equity.'

Black and Brown high performers have to be able to 'throw down,' and they are not being told they are 'privileged' as a further disadvantage. This issue only worsens under the assumption that there aren't lower-income Asian households, who are considered white-adjacent. Do you think that a white child from an upper-middle-class neighborhood won't face challenges when the administration spoons to others the message that they are 'oppressors?'

Have you ever listened to the music or artistic expression of Chris Rock, Kevin Hart, or any successful comedian or rapper? How many would even think of sending their kids to the hoods they grew up in? None.

It's not a matter of race, but your point, yes, high-performing kids (from any background) can be directly impacted by poor students in environments where bad behavior is allowed to flourish.

Reading comprehension is so key across all races. My post specifically noted that they play pretend in a socioeconomic class that they don't belong to. This includes black and brown middle class and up. The issue of middle class parents not wanting to send their kids to a school like Lewis is particularly true for black kids who will be given comparatively harsher punishments for the same behavior as their counterparts.

Fully agree. These parents don't want their kids to act like something they are not, being 'hood,' with all too familiar consequences in an environment where administrators and staff can't tell them apart from one another if they act, or dress, a certain way to fit in. By the war, Lewis is mostly Hispanic (https://www.greatschools.org/virginia/springfield/533-John-R.-Lewis-High-School/#Equity_overview).

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Lewis soccer teams, both boys and girls, are terrible. It's also weird (and slightly racist) to assume the population of kids there would find that to be a draw.

The fact is that the boundaries were drawn as they were with the intention to funnel poor kids to Lewis. That was by design. FCPS and the school board both know that adding programs, AP, and whatever other nonsense they throw at the wall will neither entice middle-UMC students there nor will those programs help poor students in any way. The UMC households in the Lewis pyramid will continue to avoid that school like the plague.

Someone posted earlier that their soccer team was successful. And, anyone who calls it "racist" to acknowledge that South American and Central Americans are drawn to soccer is clueless.

Just like Texans are drawn to American football. Look at the popularity of soccer in the countries south of the border. Do you ever watch to see who is playing on the soccer fields in the evenings after youth sports?

Wake up and smell the coffee. You have to meet the students where they are. These are poor kids--many of them working or helping with younger siblings. Some may even be unaccompanied minors.
I think that it is a shame that the border is such a mess, but the kids are here and we must educate them--for their sakes and for ours.

You are not going to educate them by pouring in wealthier students.

Fairfax County had its own study that students start to suffer when a school is above 30% F/R lunch and basically above 40% a school faces a herculean task. There is a positive impact exposing poorer students, including recent immigrants, to children and families with strong education backgrounds. It does not help to isolate them in particular schools. Some cold-hearted people on this site.

This "cold hearted" person spent years teaching kids that were way below the poverty level. Here is a little secret--they do not learn by "osmosis." They learn by good, solid instruction. It take very hard work and effort, but it can be done. Will they be prepared for college? Some will, most likely will not unless things change in the household.

Do you really think sending in wealthy kdis will change that? 30% of FCPS is on free lunch. And, going up. How do you plan to adjust that across the county without sending kids far away from their communities?

It is very difficult to get parents in to the schools and include them if they do not live near the school.

Do you really think that people will not find other options for their kids?

Back in the day, the protocol was to determine the baseline for a child and work from there to bring him up to level--while, at the same time presenting enriching activities to challenge him. It can be done.

Shifting kids only covers up the problem. It is not "cold hearted" to acknowledge that. What is "cold hearted?" To expect someone else's children to fix the problem.

Well then, certainly moving some of the wealthier students from overcrowded West Springfield to Lewis would not hurt those poorer students (and I do believe it would have a positive impact). And it would allow the school to offer more advanced classes and instances of those classes. Not to mention potentially field teams in all sports. I mean, why protest boundary changes so much if students (of all backgrounds) will learn just as well at any of the FCPS schools? Certainly, if your claims of poorer students not being influenced or otherwise impacted by wealthier students is true, then surely the opposite is true and the poorer students will not impact the wealthier students. So boundary changes should be no issue.

Better question for you: Why do you want wealthier students at Lewis so badly? I mean why advocate for boundary changes so much- what is in it for you? What do YOU want and why do you think you are any better than other parents who are advocating to not have that happen?

One would assume that poster is an upper middle class person too based on dcum demographics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Lewis soccer teams, both boys and girls, are terrible. It's also weird (and slightly racist) to assume the population of kids there would find that to be a draw.

The fact is that the boundaries were drawn as they were with the intention to funnel poor kids to Lewis. That was by design. FCPS and the school board both know that adding programs, AP, and whatever other nonsense they throw at the wall will neither entice middle-UMC students there nor will those programs help poor students in any way. The UMC households in the Lewis pyramid will continue to avoid that school like the plague.

Someone posted earlier that their soccer team was successful. And, anyone who calls it "racist" to acknowledge that South American and Central Americans are drawn to soccer is clueless.

Just like Texans are drawn to American football. Look at the popularity of soccer in the countries south of the border. Do you ever watch to see who is playing on the soccer fields in the evenings after youth sports?

Wake up and smell the coffee. You have to meet the students where they are. These are poor kids--many of them working or helping with younger siblings. Some may even be unaccompanied minors.
I think that it is a shame that the border is such a mess, but the kids are here and we must educate them--for their sakes and for ours.

You are not going to educate them by pouring in wealthier students.

Fairfax County had its own study that students start to suffer when a school is above 30% F/R lunch and basically above 40% a school faces a herculean task. There is a positive impact exposing poorer students, including recent immigrants, to children and families with strong education backgrounds. It does not help to isolate them in particular schools. Some cold-hearted people on this site.

This "cold hearted" person spent years teaching kids that were way below the poverty level. Here is a little secret--they do not learn by "osmosis." They learn by good, solid instruction. It take very hard work and effort, but it can be done. Will they be prepared for college? Some will, most likely will not unless things change in the household.

Do you really think sending in wealthy kdis will change that? 30% of FCPS is on free lunch. And, going up. How do you plan to adjust that across the county without sending kids far away from their communities?

It is very difficult to get parents in to the schools and include them if they do not live near the school.

Do you really think that people will not find other options for their kids?

Back in the day, the protocol was to determine the baseline for a child and work from there to bring him up to level--while, at the same time presenting enriching activities to challenge him. It can be done.

Shifting kids only covers up the problem. It is not "cold hearted" to acknowledge that. What is "cold hearted?" To expect someone else's children to fix the problem.

Well then, certainly moving some of the wealthier students from overcrowded West Springfield to Lewis would not hurt those poorer students (and I do believe it would have a positive impact). And it would allow the school to offer more advanced classes and instances of those classes. Not to mention potentially field teams in all sports. I mean, why protest boundary changes so much if students (of all backgrounds) will learn just as well at any of the FCPS schools? Certainly, if your claims of poorer students not being influenced or otherwise impacted by wealthier students is true, then surely the opposite is true and the poorer students will not impact the wealthier students. So boundary changes should be no issue.

Better question for you: Why do you want wealthier students at Lewis so badly? I mean why advocate for boundary changes so much- what is in it for you? What do YOU want and why do you think you are any better than other parents who are advocating to not have that happen?

One would assume that poster is an upper middle class person too based on dcum demographics.

Can you blame them? If they are from a UMC Hispanic or Black family, especially with higher-performing children, they would be targets by school administrators who would want to place them in those environments with the hope to increase score averages so they would not look as bad. This is their primary motivation to do away with ability grouping and embrace equity grading.

The UMC Hispanic or Black family likely didn't start out that way, and most certainly have family members who are not middle class. They are all too familiar with the 'hood' and they moved to the burbs for a reason. Look at the racial breakdown in Fairfax County, roughly half of the Hispanic and Black populaces are not low-income, and are spread out throughout the county. It's called UMC flight because they do not want to self-segregate into poor areas (https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/demographics/sites/demographics/files/assets/demographicreports/fullrpt.pdf).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we can all agree that the first step to boundary changes at the high school level would be to standardize on AP at all schools. Only then can the discussion of boundaries even happen.

I know the IB fans will protest, but AP is already in 2/3rds of the schools and is less expensive. AP is more flexible and has a simpler course structure (for example, no two year courses).

But there are people out there who cheer for IB to stay either so they can pupil place or use it as a tool to fight boundary changes. They couldn't care less about the IB program itself.

Why do some parents not believe that some people want IB? I know it’s not the majority but we are out there. I do agree that they should just keep the 3 strongest programs in the county. But the people who cheer AP as a better fit for poor students are just as full of crap. You think poor student X who won’t do IB, will all of a sudden be taking tons of AP classes? And don’t parents also use AP to get out of their local IB school?

DP but the bigger point is that the general preference for AP will continue to paralyze FCPS with respect to potential HS boundary changes involving schools that are currently IB schools. Yes, they could have a couple of IB schools to accommodate the families that prefer IB but there’s no clear justification for having 8 and good reason to believe that it’s contributed to the ongoing decline of multiple pyramids.

It not the preference for AP, it's the preference to not have your kid in a failing school. It doesn't matter what program MVHS offers - Hayfield parents would never want their kids sent there

I think what PP and others are saying is that if you get rid of the IB at some of the lower schools, and put AP in, students will not have the choice to "opt out" of those lower schools, and with the right communication, perhaps those families will go back to their base schools in enough numbers that the schools won't be considered so bad. By having IB, FCPS is giving parents a way to get out of certain schools ... which causes them to have an abundance of low-performing kids, and few high-performing kids... which becomes a vicious cycle.

What are the numbers though? People who pupil place have to provide their own transportation--and they can only go if the receiving school has room. I'd want to see how many people pupil place to know whether would make a measurable difference. In addition, if it's not an option, how many people would just move out at HS then. The people who have the means to pupil place and provide transportation are the people who have the means to move (and who would be more likely prioritize education to move on that basis). I think the issue is not IB/AP, it's that high poverty schools are challenging.

Which is why it was so bad for Fairfax to concentrate poverty in the first place. They actively made changes to boundaries that took wealthier families out of poorer schools and moved them to wealthier schools. The School Board and Superintendent weren't just innocent bystanders. Now it is broken beyond repair.

Where/when did they do this?

Annandale to both Woodson and Lake Braddock, Lee (Lewis) to West Springfield.

Also refused to use the available space at Mount Vernon and instead enlarged West Potomac to 3000.

Fairfax has fed the vicious cycle - they have essentially written off certain pyramids.

What does adding even 20% MC/UMC do for a school like Lewis?

Allows it to have a baseball team? Didn’t Lewis have to cancel some sports last year due to lack of interest?

All levels of baseball and softball were outright canceled. Field hockey had 5 or 6 girls total at the end but they still played their games. The football roster shrinks every year as enrollment has fallen. Quite disheartening actually. It isn't even about the racial-political games, Lewis kids don't deserve to be so under-enrolled in such a large county.

This really doesn’t make sense as there are 1690 kids there. Schools half that size field teams. I suspect some of these sports just are appealing to the student body.

North Springfield little league feeds into Lewis and has a very robust program. Lewis should be able to field 1-2 baseball teams.

I don't live in that area and I am not a "baseball" focused family. However, we are a sports family. If these kids end up at Lewis and Lewis cannot field a team, this is on the administration and coaches.

What we should be discussing is administratiion and what can be done now.

In fact, in all of this discussion, all we hear is about boundaries--when adjustment would necessarily take years.

The most discussion I have heard about this is when the School Board renamed Lee to Lewis and all of the activity around that. Also, Karen Keys-Gamarra's new "Academy" which will do nothing for Lewis.

Also, are things better at Lewis since the name change?

[Anonymous]

Get rid of IB at Lewis and move part of West Springfield there. Done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of IB at Lewis and move part of West Springfield there. Done.

What does this do for the students at either school? I bet if you get rid of IB, that might be enough.

[Anonymous]

I went to a public high school (in another state) that basically had half upper middle class and wealthy kids and half really poor kids. It basically operated as 2 school. Too 100 kids went to top universities. Next 100 went to state schools. Bottom 300 didn't go to college.

Based on my experience I'm not sure how moving wealthy kids in would help. It would only create a school within a school unless there is a way to get more interaction, which won't really happen with some kids taking ap BC calc and some remedial math.

[Anonymous]

Central, not North, little league feeds Lewis. But I believe many of the Central players are zoned for Edison and Hayfield. And many of the white families have relocated by the time their children reach middle school or they pupil place.

Multiple posters on this thread have made the case that Lewis is not tolerable, so why would you expect any family with options to stay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of IB at Lewis and move part of West Springfield there. Done.

What does this do for the students at either school? I bet if you get rid of IB, that might be enough.

Improves opportunities for students at both schools.

[Anonymous]

It’s also true that whoever is responsible for zoning in Springfield didn’t do Lewis any favors. The school is in the middle of heavily commercial properties - strip malls and big roads. It didn’t keep the natural beauty (trees and parks, bike paths and trails) of west Springfield, Annandale, Burke. And on the other hand it doesn’t have the big newer houses that South County and Hayfield have. Even Edison has decent pockets of desirable neighborhoods.

There are many issues working against that school.