How many DC residents do not have ID cards of some sort?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably thousands.

There are plenty of older folks who were born in the rural south who are living in DC now and may not have ever had a birth certificate.

Thousands of old people who never drove, never served in the military, never opened a bank account, never sent a kid to school?

If they ever filed for taxes they have a SSN and could get a social security card from the SSA in ten minutes. Where is this group of thousands?

Social security cards do not have a picture. Picture identification is what is required when a person’s identity is questioned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The people who were born on a kitchen table by kerosene lantern in an unheated, dirt floor shack on a subsistence farm in the middle of nowhere and whose birth was recorded, if at all, in a tattered family Bible somewhere are for the most part dead of old age my now.

The people who claim getting identification is too expensive or complex for them seem for the most part to afford other things, including cigarettes, drugs and booze, and to be able to handle normal transactions, like getting a prepaid cell phone. And if they’re really broke there typically are fee waivers available, and social service organizations to help them get straightened out if they want to.

The chronically disorganized really shouldn’t be setting the standard and even they usually can organize the things they really care about.

The truly mentally ill are unfortunate and it is hard not to sympathize with them, but again they really should not be the standard.

We have become way to much of a “show your papers” society. People with no business having copies of our drivers licenses routinely demand and scan them to keep in perpetuity. Even worse are the “show ID” transactions where possession of something that looks valid is enough.

All this being said, there are times when it is reasonable and important to be able confirm who a person is. The idea that it is oppressive to require people to have identification when they might have some trouble getting or maintaining possession of it is dramatically exaggerated. It comes up most often in the context of voter ID laws. People routinely show ID to visit their kid’s school, enter office buildings, get government services, get medical care, buy booze and cigarettes, and even see movies. But suddenly it’s a wholesale disenfranchisement to want to confirm that voters are who they claim to be? Not a persuasive claim.

I agree. It seems to me one solution is to accept expired IDs for voting also. I realize not everyone may keep their IDs up to date, but most people have them.

And guess what? DC offers FREE non-driver ID cards if you are a senior citizen, homeless, or were recently let out of prison:
https://dmv.dc.gov/node/1120181

Guess what??? You still have to have all the correct documents, which cost money, and transportation to the DMV, and be able to get the time off work.

Life requires effort. Are you hungry? You have to travel to some place to buy food, then cook it or purchase it already cooked. Later you have to do the dishes.

Yes, getting an ID requires some effort, once every few years. What does one do in life that doesn't require effort?

It’s not very difficult to imagine getting an ID in DC, but in other states they purposely make it more difficult. Imagine not being able to drive, no public transportation, and the closest DMV is 90 minutes away. Plus you need to print copies of things (utility bills, leases, etc) to prove residency, and pay for the actual ID itself.
Like I said, this isn’t an issue in the suburban/urban DMV, but it certainly is in rural Alabama or Mississippi.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably thousands.

There are plenty of older folks who were born in the rural south who are living in DC now and may not have ever had a birth certificate.

Thousands of old people who never drove, never served in the military, never opened a bank account, never sent a kid to school?

If they ever filed for taxes they have a SSN and could get a social security card from the SSA in ten minutes. Where is this group of thousands?

Social security cards do not have a picture. Picture identification is what is required when a person’s identity is questioned.

I think that the point is that once you have spent the ten minutes to get a Social Security Card, you can use that to get a DMV ID Card. The Social Security Card makes it pretty strait forward to obtain further identification. DC actually makes obtaining an ID pretty strait forward, though DMV services are a nightmare during the pandemic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The not having ID argument is similar to the not having internet access argument. It is made up. We want to believe it because it makes us feel like we understand a potentially awful problem. But the fact of the matter is that the problem does not exist. And just like the internet problem, if it did exist there are dozens of already existing pathways to solve the problem. But if we acknowledged it solved we wouldn't feel like we understood the problem. Real first world problems here.

it does exist and your post shows your privelidge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably thousands.

There are plenty of older folks who were born in the rural south who are living in DC now and may not have ever had a birth certificate.

Thousands of old people who never drove, never served in the military, never opened a bank account, never sent a kid to school?

If they ever filed for taxes they have a SSN and could get a social security card from the SSA in ten minutes. Where is this group of thousands?

Social security cards do not have a picture. Picture identification is what is required when a person’s identity is questioned.

I think that the point is that once you have spent the ten minutes to get a Social Security Card, you can use that to get a DMV ID Card. The Social Security Card makes it pretty strait forward to obtain further identification. DC actually makes obtaining an ID pretty strait forward, though DMV services are a nightmare during the pandemic.

Without a birth certificate, it is almost impossible. And there are many many people who either cannot obtain one or where they simply didn't exist in the first place.

Figure out how to deal with those and then you can make voter ID mandatory. Until then, it is suppressing disproprotionately the poor and minority populations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The people who were born on a kitchen table by kerosene lantern in an unheated, dirt floor shack on a subsistence farm in the middle of nowhere and whose birth was recorded, if at all, in a tattered family Bible somewhere are for the most part dead of old age my now.

The people who claim getting identification is too expensive or complex for them seem for the most part to afford other things, including cigarettes, drugs and booze, and to be able to handle normal transactions, like getting a prepaid cell phone. And if they’re really broke there typically are fee waivers available, and social service organizations to help them get straightened out if they want to.

The chronically disorganized really shouldn’t be setting the standard and even they usually can organize the things they really care about.

The truly mentally ill are unfortunate and it is hard not to sympathize with them, but again they really should not be the standard.

We have become way to much of a “show your papers” society. People with no business having copies of our drivers licenses routinely demand and scan them to keep in perpetuity. Even worse are the “show ID” transactions where possession of something that looks valid is enough.

All this being said, there are times when it is reasonable and important to be able confirm who a person is. The idea that it is oppressive to require people to have identification when they might have some trouble getting or maintaining possession of it is dramatically exaggerated. It comes up most often in the context of voter ID laws. People routinely show ID to visit their kid’s school, enter office buildings, get government services, get medical care, buy booze and cigarettes, and even see movies. But suddenly it’s a wholesale disenfranchisement to want to confirm that voters are who they claim to be? Not a persuasive claim.

I agree. It seems to me one solution is to accept expired IDs for voting also. I realize not everyone may keep their IDs up to date, but most people have them.

And guess what? DC offers FREE non-driver ID cards if you are a senior citizen, homeless, or were recently let out of prison:
https://dmv.dc.gov/node/1120181

Guess what??? You still have to have all the correct documents, which cost money, and transportation to the DMV, and be able to get the time off work.

Life requires effort. Are you hungry? You have to travel to some place to buy food, then cook it or purchase it already cooked. Later you have to do the dishes.

Yes, getting an ID requires some effort, once every few years. What does one do in life that doesn't require effort?

It’s not very difficult to imagine getting an ID in DC, but in other states they purposely make it more difficult. Imagine not being able to drive, no public transportation, and the closest DMV is 90 minutes away. Plus you need to print copies of things (utility bills, leases, etc) to prove residency, and pay for the actual ID itself.
Like I said, this isn’t an issue in the suburban/urban DMV, but it certainly is in rural Alabama or Mississippi.

But somehow the same people manage to get groceries, clothing and typically medical care. And if they’re printing things they presumably managed to get a printer, ink and paper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:11 percent of the U.S. population doesn't have valid ID, according to the ACLU.

It's up to 25 percent for people of color.

And whose fault is that? This idea that the whole society has to rush around begging people to function like normal adults and cleaning up after them whether they want it or not is simply ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11 percent of the U.S. population doesn't have valid ID, according to the ACLU.

It's up to 25 percent for people of color.

And whose fault is that? This idea that the whole society has to rush around begging people to function like normal adults and cleaning up after them whether they want it or not is simply ridiculous.

In many countries you are required to carry ID and present papers. I am fine with at least requiring people to have one. It could be part of High School protocol--you know, preparing people to head off to adult life. Maybe not graduation since so many drop out. Perhaps to graduate middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The people who were born on a kitchen table by kerosene lantern in an unheated, dirt floor shack on a subsistence farm in the middle of nowhere and whose birth was recorded, if at all, in a tattered family Bible somewhere are for the most part dead of old age my now.

The people who claim getting identification is too expensive or complex for them seem for the most part to afford other things, including cigarettes, drugs and booze, and to be able to handle normal transactions, like getting a prepaid cell phone. And if they’re really broke there typically are fee waivers available, and social service organizations to help them get straightened out if they want to.

The chronically disorganized really shouldn’t be setting the standard and even they usually can organize the things they really care about.

The truly mentally ill are unfortunate and it is hard not to sympathize with them, but again they really should not be the standard.

We have become way to much of a “show your papers” society. People with no business having copies of our drivers licenses routinely demand and scan them to keep in perpetuity. Even worse are the “show ID” transactions where possession of something that looks valid is enough.

All this being said, there are times when it is reasonable and important to be able confirm who a person is. The idea that it is oppressive to require people to have identification when they might have some trouble getting or maintaining possession of it is dramatically exaggerated. It comes up most often in the context of voter ID laws. People routinely show ID to visit their kid’s school, enter office buildings, get government services, get medical care, buy booze and cigarettes, and even see movies. But suddenly it’s a wholesale disenfranchisement to want to confirm that voters are who they claim to be? Not a persuasive claim.

I agree. It seems to me one solution is to accept expired IDs for voting also. I realize not everyone may keep their IDs up to date, but most people have them.

And guess what? DC offers FREE non-driver ID cards if you are a senior citizen, homeless, or were recently let out of prison:
https://dmv.dc.gov/node/1120181

Guess what??? You still have to have all the correct documents, which cost money, and transportation to the DMV, and be able to get the time off work.

Life requires effort. Are you hungry? You have to travel to some place to buy food, then cook it or purchase it already cooked. Later you have to do the dishes.

Yes, getting an ID requires some effort, once every few years. What does one do in life that doesn't require effort?

It’s not very difficult to imagine getting an ID in DC, but in other states they purposely make it more difficult. Imagine not being able to drive, no public transportation, and the closest DMV is 90 minutes away. Plus you need to print copies of things (utility bills, leases, etc) to prove residency, and pay for the actual ID itself.
Like I said, this isn’t an issue in the suburban/urban DMV, but it certainly is in rural Alabama or Mississippi.

But somehow the same people manage to get groceries, clothing and typically medical care. And if they’re printing things they presumably managed to get a printer, ink and paper.

Jeez, talk about willful ignorance. In most parts of the country, it’s probably easier to get to Walmart than it is to the DMV. Getting healthcare in rural areas is notoriously difficult, and large swaths of the population don’t see a doctor for years at a time. And the point was that they need those documents but don’t have a printer, paper, or ink. If you don’t have an valid ID, I can assure you that you don’t own a printer or see a doctor, ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The people who were born on a kitchen table by kerosene lantern in an unheated, dirt floor shack on a subsistence farm in the middle of nowhere and whose birth was recorded, if at all, in a tattered family Bible somewhere are for the most part dead of old age my now.

The people who claim getting identification is too expensive or complex for them seem for the most part to afford other things, including cigarettes, drugs and booze, and to be able to handle normal transactions, like getting a prepaid cell phone. And if they’re really broke there typically are fee waivers available, and social service organizations to help them get straightened out if they want to.

The chronically disorganized really shouldn’t be setting the standard and even they usually can organize the things they really care about.

The truly mentally ill are unfortunate and it is hard not to sympathize with them, but again they really should not be the standard.

We have become way to much of a “show your papers” society. People with no business having copies of our drivers licenses routinely demand and scan them to keep in perpetuity. Even worse are the “show ID” transactions where possession of something that looks valid is enough.

All this being said, there are times when it is reasonable and important to be able confirm who a person is. The idea that it is oppressive to require people to have identification when they might have some trouble getting or maintaining possession of it is dramatically exaggerated. It comes up most often in the context of voter ID laws. People routinely show ID to visit their kid’s school, enter office buildings, get government services, get medical care, buy booze and cigarettes, and even see movies. But suddenly it’s a wholesale disenfranchisement to want to confirm that voters are who they claim to be? Not a persuasive claim.

I agree. It seems to me one solution is to accept expired IDs for voting also. I realize not everyone may keep their IDs up to date, but most people have them.

And guess what? DC offers FREE non-driver ID cards if you are a senior citizen, homeless, or were recently let out of prison:
https://dmv.dc.gov/node/1120181

Guess what??? You still have to have all the correct documents, which cost money, and transportation to the DMV, and be able to get the time off work.

Life requires effort. Are you hungry? You have to travel to some place to buy food, then cook it or purchase it already cooked. Later you have to do the dishes.

Yes, getting an ID requires some effort, once every few years. What does one do in life that doesn't require effort?

This. Nobody works 24/7/52. Social security cards are easy to get/replace. The birth certificate is $23 in DC but there is a fee waiver program. Honestly, do PP’s dithering about this do any research, actually know anyone in this position, or just hysterically repeat what somebody else told them to show how “caring” they are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably thousands.

There are plenty of older folks who were born in the rural south who are living in DC now and may not have ever had a birth certificate.

How did they get to DC? How do they get a social security check? How do they rent?

Many came to DC in search of educational opportunities for their children. They took the train, the bus, or came with other people by car. Imagine, for example, a SAHM who never drove. Any social security that she has would be based on her husband’s income and SS# . She might still live in the family home — a house that was purchased by her husband. Many people of a certain age were paid in cash and don’t qualify for social security benefits which, originally were deliberately crafted to leave out jobs that were disproportionately held by Black people.

Maybe go read up on the Great Migration.

The Great Migration was 100 years ago. There is no one collecting social security based on their husband who doesn't have their own SS#. Sorry... even in the 30s when Social Security was created and your point was actually true, the government made all sorts of accommodations... you could bring in a church document, you could bring in your mom or a sibling or a friend to verify your birth. They swore an affidavit and they gave you a SS#. We now fall over ourselves to accept documents from every country in the world. There is no one who can't get an ID if they want one.

Are there homeless and mentally ill people who have lost the card, sure? But even most of them receive SSI, so yes, someone is holding their paperwork.

The Great Migration ended around 197O — So widen your range a bit. No one has said that you “can’t” get an ID. Many of us have said that it can be expensive and difficult and a major hurdle for people who do not have birth certificates. The extreme difficulties are less about people who had these documents and lost them and more about people who never had them in the first place.

The Great Migration did not end in 1970. Pick up a textbook.

[Anonymous]

Every time I have showed up at a hospital or doctor's office, they asked for ID.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably thousands.

There are plenty of older folks who were born in the rural south who are living in DC now and may not have ever had a birth certificate.

Thousands of old people who never drove, never served in the military, never opened a bank account, never sent a kid to school?

If they ever filed for taxes they have a SSN and could get a social security card from the SSA in ten minutes. Where is this group of thousands?

Social security cards do not have a picture. Picture identification is what is required when a person’s identity is questioned.

I think that the point is that once you have spent the ten minutes to get a Social Security Card, you can use that to get a DMV ID Card. The Social Security Card makes it pretty strait forward to obtain further identification. DC actually makes obtaining an ID pretty strait forward, though DMV services are a nightmare during the pandemic.

Without a birth certificate, it is almost impossible. And there are many many people who either cannot obtain one or where they simply didn't exist in the first place.

Figure out how to deal with those and then you can make voter ID mandatory. Until then, it is suppressing disproprotionately the poor and minority populations.

But it isn’t true that government doesn’t accommodate people with no birth certificate (a number which is vanishingly small). All of these people are accommodated, especially to enroll in SS and Medicare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11 percent of the U.S. population doesn't have valid ID, according to the ACLU.

It's up to 25 percent for people of color.

And whose fault is that? This idea that the whole society has to rush around begging people to function like normal adults and cleaning up after them whether they want it or not is simply ridiculous.

In many countries you are required to carry ID and present papers. I am fine with at least requiring people to have one. It could be part of High School protocol--you know, preparing people to head off to adult life. Maybe not graduation since so many drop out. Perhaps to graduate middle school.

So now we are aspiring to be a country where you get stopped for ID checks?

This whole thread is just a stupid argument looking for a problem.

[Anonymous]

I have tried to help a couple of homeless people here get IDs and it is HARD. I was not successful. You need a full on social worker to make that happen and that's not always easy to arrange.

It is a big hurdle to getting help for people - many of them are not getting what they need.