Is there any proof that Curie had the exact TJ test?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole problem was caused by TJ itself refusing to publish old tests, and pretending that by putting their heads in the sand, nobody would see the old tests.

They fixed that by getting rid of the test. Now it's just a personal character essay that is well known so everyone can practice gamint thst, and a weird little math+diversity essay, with past examples published on YouTube

Quant-Q was a bad choice because it only increased inequalities.

Rich kids could take expensive prep to have access to these NDA-protected tests.

They were concerned about the test prep companies but apparently underestimated how unethical they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The scandal is that kids were encouraged to memorize questions from their exams and report them back to Curie. Curie would teach the next group of kids including the memorized questions from the previous year. This provided Curie with a copy of past exams which would allow them to be able to teach their students how to prepare for the specific types of questions asked on the exam.

Students and parents sign non disclosure agreements where they agree to not discuss the test or test questions with anyone else. By memorizing and reporting the questions, the students violated that agreement. By teaching new students using those questions, Curie provided those students with a leg up on the exam because the students had already practiced the questions.

Kids signing contracts makes the contract unenforceable. The kid violated nothing. If the parent was not the discloser of the info, he also did not violate the non disclosure.

Yes, they were relying on the idea and expectation that kids were being taught by the adults around them to have moral integrity. How silly to expect adults to be teaching children to be honest.

When there are adults around saying things like “Kids signing contracts makes the contract unenforceable” you can’t expect the kids to be getting the message that honesty and integrity are important traits to develop to be a good adult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole problem was caused by TJ itself refusing to publish old tests, and pretending that by putting their heads in the sand, nobody would see the old tests.

They fixed that by getting rid of the test. Now it's just a personal character essay that is well known so everyone can practice gamint thst, and a weird little math+diversity essay, with past examples published on YouTube

Quant-Q was a bad choice because it only increased inequalities.

Rich kids could take expensive prep to have access to these NDA-protected tests.

They were concerned about the test prep companies but apparently underestimated how unethical they are.

It was a fantastic choice for one year. FCPS was a bit shortsighted in assuming that no one would do exactly what Curie did.

There hasn't been a lawsuit because nothing done was technically illegal. It was just evidence that showed that the admissions process was in desperate need of change and that there is no way to utilize a standardized exam without favoring families with resources. The Quant-Q should have been the solution to the admissions problem, but in a very real sense, Curie killed it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole problem was caused by TJ itself refusing to publish old tests, and pretending that by putting their heads in the sand, nobody would see the old tests.

They fixed that by getting rid of the test. Now it's just a personal character essay that is well known so everyone can practice gamint thst, and a weird little math+diversity essay, with past examples published on YouTube

Quant-Q was a bad choice because it only increased inequalities.

Rich kids could take expensive prep to have access to these NDA-protected tests.

They were concerned about the test prep companies but apparently underestimated how unethical they are.

It was a fantastic choice for one year. FCPS was a bit shortsighted in assuming that no one would do exactly what Curie did.

There hasn't been a lawsuit because nothing done was technically illegal. It was just evidence that showed that the admissions process was in desperate need of change and that there is no way to utilize a standardized exam without favoring families with resources. The Quant-Q should have been the solution to the admissions problem, but in a very real sense, Curie killed it.

It's not just Curie. It's naive to imagine that kids wouldn't tell their younger siblings what to expect on the Quant-Q. Then the younger siblings could tell friends, and a lot of kids would have an edge. FCPS was shortsighted in assuming that there is such a thing as a secured exam.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Curie wasn’t the only test prep company making big money off a public school magnet admissions process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, Curie wasn’t the only test prep company making big money off a public school magnet admissions process.

This is as absurd as claiming all the basketball training centers and little leagues are making big money off of their students who make it through tryout evaluations and get admitted to the limited spots on their public school basketball team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, Curie wasn’t the only test prep company making big money off a public school magnet admissions process.

This is as absurd as claiming all the basketball training centers and little leagues are making big money off of their students who make it through tryout evaluations and get admitted to the limited spots on their public school basketball team.

The problem is not everyone can afford Curie and mostly only kids who could were getting in. Many of them were among the brightest in the county just not getting spoon fed the test questions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, Curie wasn’t the only test prep company making big money off a public school magnet admissions process.

This is as absurd as claiming all the basketball training centers and little leagues are making big money off of their students who make it through tryout evaluations and get admitted to the limited spots on their public school basketball team.

The problem is not everyone can afford Curie and mostly only kids who could were getting in. Many of them were among the brightest in the county just not getting spoon fed the test questions.

Don't be ridiculous. Kids among the brightest in the county would have earned high scores on both the Quant-Q and ACT Aspire without doing prep. The rest of their package likewise would have been impressive, and they would have been admitted. Prep centers weren't displacing the "brightest kids in the county." Just to make the numbers easier, let's go with 500 kids being admitted to TJ. The top 100 kids would have been admitted even with no prep. Prep centers caused kids in the 500-1000 range to displace some of the kids who would have been in the 300-500 range. So, all the prep centers did was swap out the bottom half of TJ with a different bottom half. Don't misunderstand - That is a problem that needed to be solved, but it certainly wasn't the case that kids who were among the brightest in the county weren't being admitted due to lack of expensive prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The scandal is that kids were encouraged to memorize questions from their exams and report them back to Curie. Curie would teach the next group of kids including the memorized questions from the previous year. This provided Curie with a copy of past exams which would allow them to be able to teach their students how to prepare for the specific types of questions asked on the exam.

Students and parents sign non disclosure agreements where they agree to not discuss the test or test questions with anyone else. By memorizing and reporting the questions, the students violated that agreement. By teaching new students using those questions, Curie provided those students with a leg up on the exam because the students had already practiced the questions.

Kids signing contracts makes the contract unenforceable. The kid violated nothing. If the parent was not the discloser of the info, he also did not violate the non disclosure.

Seems unethical and does explain why there's so much cheating at TJ.

Yes, unethical, but not illegal.

Are breaking NDAs illegal?

No. In this case, it's not even actionable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole problem was caused by TJ itself refusing to publish old tests, and pretending that by putting their heads in the sand, nobody would see the old tests.

They fixed that by getting rid of the test. Now it's just a personal character essay that is well known so everyone can practice gamint thst, and a weird little math+diversity essay, with past examples published on YouTube

Quant-Q was a bad choice because it only increased inequalities.

Rich kids could take expensive prep to have access to these NDA-protected tests.

They were concerned about the test prep companies but apparently underestimated how unethical they are.

It was a fantastic choice for one year. FCPS was a bit shortsighted in assuming that no one would do exactly what Curie did.

There hasn't been a lawsuit because nothing done was technically illegal. It was just evidence that showed that the admissions process was in desperate need of change and that there is no way to utilize a standardized exam without favoring families with resources. The Quant-Q should have been the solution to the admissions problem, but in a very real sense, Curie killed it.

Resources do not distort test results , at least not in a way that matters.

Take the SAT for example. Some families can afford to throw thousands of dollars into prep and others can afford to buy a barron's book. So if resources artificailly boosted test scores you would expect the college performance of a 1500 SAT poor student to exceed the college performance of a 1500 wealthy student but it turns out that their perfomance is almost identical.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We almost didnt consider Curie as it was misleadingly introduced as a test prep company on this forum. Glad we visited and learnt it is more of an advanced enrichment center, and enrolled our DC there. Now been there for two years, and half a dozen of their friends have joined too. Switched from Kumon, as it's cheaper with multiple subjects. Thank you all.

You mean to say that they aren't signing up their kindergartners and high school seniors to study for the TJ test?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, Curie wasn’t the only test prep company making big money off a public school magnet admissions process.

This is as absurd as claiming all the basketball training centers and little leagues are making big money off of their students who make it through tryout evaluations and get admitted to the limited spots on their public school basketball team.

The problem is not everyone can afford Curie and mostly only kids who could were getting in. Many of them were among the brightest in the county just not getting spoon fed the test questions.

There is no single perfect selection method but some are much better than others.
Even a lottery of applicants selects for something positive because you are selecting among students that are more motivated and confident in their ability than the general pool of students.
But if you want the best then the best filter is one that selects for diligence and IQ.
We have known how to select for these two traits since WWII.

Sure, there are instances where IQ tests do not capture IQ but these cases are the exception not the rule.
If you listened to some parents talk, you would think that IQ tests only picked up gifted kids half the time.
If I had $1 for every time I heard a parent say that their mediocre kids is gifted but just doesn't test well, I'd have enough to buy a car.

The more public and available you make the test, the easier and more available it will be to poor kids.
Before they switched to the quant Q, they used the SHSAT.
Khan academy had a high quality free course on the SHSAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not say that this is an exact copy of a test and cheating. It is unethical but I don’t think this is cheating. DCUM made it sound like they had stolen a copy of the test. Basically they had a bank of prior years’ questions. Eh. Doesn’t seem as bad as it originally stated.

You must be new here. The allegations, from the beginning, have been exactly as a PP described... with students essentially memorizing and reporting back questions to develop a test bank... problematic not only because it is both unethical and cheating in the broader sense, but in particular a big issue for the Quant-Q because many of those questions were reused in subsequent years on this test (unlike other broader standardized tests like SAT which have similar format/concept questions each year, but not verbatim reproductions).

Your efforts to minimize this are fairly transparent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not say that this is an exact copy of a test and cheating. It is unethical but I don’t think this is cheating. DCUM made it sound like they had stolen a copy of the test. Basically they had a bank of prior years’ questions. Eh. Doesn’t seem as bad as it originally stated.

You must be new here. The allegations, from the beginning, have been exactly as a PP described... with students essentially memorizing and reporting back questions to develop a test bank... problematic not only because it is both unethical and cheating in the broader sense, but in particular a big issue for the Quant-Q because many of those questions were reused in subsequent years on this test (unlike other broader standardized tests like SAT which have similar format/concept questions each year, but not verbatim reproductions).

Your efforts to minimize this are fairly transparent.

Trolls gonna troll.

Quant Q didn't use the same exact test question year to year.
Just having the format and question type is a big advantage.
This information was fairly easily available.
You can get test prep for the quant Q test on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/TJHSST-Quant-Q-Vol-1/dp/1950573788

DP. The publication date of that prep book is 2020. Was there a previous edition published earlier? Or are you proving PP's point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not say that this is an exact copy of a test and cheating. It is unethical but I don’t think this is cheating. DCUM made it sound like they had stolen a copy of the test. Basically they had a bank of prior years’ questions. Eh. Doesn’t seem as bad as it originally stated.

You must be new here. The allegations, from the beginning, have been exactly as a PP described... with students essentially memorizing and reporting back questions to develop a test bank... problematic not only because it is both unethical and cheating in the broader sense, but in particular a big issue for the Quant-Q because many of those questions were reused in subsequent years on this test (unlike other broader standardized tests like SAT which have similar format/concept questions each year, but not verbatim reproductions).

Your efforts to minimize this are fairly transparent.

Trolls gonna troll.

Quant Q didn't use the same exact test question year to year.
Just having the format and question type is a big advantage.
This information was fairly easily available.
You can get test prep for the quant Q test on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/TJHSST-Quant-Q-Vol-1/dp/1950573788

DP. The publication date of that prep book is 2020. Was there a previous edition published earlier? Or are you proving PP's point?

Look at the back cover. It says second edition