Misogyny often isn't about women

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How nice of a woman to decide for boys what is and is not "acceptable masculinity" .

Can we get a male author to tell girls how to be feminine next?

What are your particular complaints? Because I'm a man and don't see any particular behaviors criticized by the author that I'd regard as desirable or even acceptable in a man.

Thank you to the pp for getting it.

There is some thought that if you say something often enough, you'll start to believe it (reinforcing neural pathways etc.) and so there is a danger that could manifest itself subtly in how you think/act towards women. Also what if your wives/daughters/nieces overhear you saying things like this? Is it acceptable to you?

OP, it's an interesting topic since it implies that this type of masculinity can not only manifest in misogynistic behavior but also other types of negative behavior. Meaning that it's potentially a broader concern than just misogynistic behavior.

"Even men suffer under the patriarchy." When I first heard stuff like this, I thought it was academic/feminist/jargony hogwash. But, the more I see, hear, and learn, the more true I recognize it is. Patriarchy isn't a simple matter of men versus women. It's a hierarchy where a select group of men is at the top and the rest of the men and all of the women are subordinate. The mechanisms of who gets to be at the top of the hierarchy and why are destructive to both men and women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a passage in the article talking about how gross out humor among boys -- poop jokes and such -- can evolve into saying crude things about women. That felt very familiar to me. I'm almost 50 years old now, so maybe things have changed. But when I was a teenager, maybe into my early twenties, I'd say the crudest stuff about women and others just to get a laugh from my friends. I absolutely didn't mean any of it -- it was just word games that got a laugh.

But now I can see how those jokes just feed into something worse. If nothing else, it would reinforce the worldview of those guys around me who truly believed that women were lesser than men.

I'm 40 and had the same experience. It was just talk, no one actually took a girl to bed and did the angry dragon or whatever nonsense we joked about.

But I found the most disapointing part of the article to be the absolute lack of desirable male traits such as protection, leadership and honor. Those were things we all strongly believed in.

our society would be well-served by acknowledging the natural differences, on average, between boys and girls and harness boys natural competitiveness into something good rather than squash it and allow the worst instincts to take over

I think I agree with the general thrust of your arguments. There are things to celebrate about being a man and boys should be given a positive vision to which to aspire. It shouldn't all be "don't, don't, don't." I'd be a little careful about the specifics though. I think women are just as capable of being protective, honorable leaders. I don't know how natural male competitiveness is or how distinctive it is from female competitiveness. Right now, I think boys youth culture is structured in such a way that ADHD little assholes have a leg up over the boys who have a little more self-discipline and mostly just want to laugh with their friends. We should respect the natural tendencies that are there but without making the mistake of confusing cultural structures for "nature."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
So misogyny isn't rooted in hatred of women but in the failure to realize that women, both individually and collectively, deserve respect and the right to be treated other than as a means to an end? That doesn't make me feel a whole lot better.

I think you'd be justified if it made you feel worse.

[Anonymous]

I attended an all boys private school 10th -12th grade. I never heard or saw that what is represented in this article. I guess women believe Porkie’s, Animal House, Revenge of the Nerds, etc are a documentaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I attended an all boys private school 10th -12th grade. I never heard or saw that what is represented in this article. I guess women believe Porkie’s, Animal House, Revenge of the Nerds, etc are a documentaries.

How long ago? I attended public high school in the late 80s and, in the early 90s, went to college with guys who'd gone to all-boys schools. (This was in the midwest, fwiw). I heard and saw stuff that was pretty close to that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also realize that there are many factors that contribute to racism.

Now walk into a room and tell a group of ethnic minorities that racism "isn't about them."

Definitely do this and report back, OP!

:popcorn:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also realize that there are many factors that contribute to racism.

Now walk into a room and tell a group of ethnic minorities that racism "isn't about them."

Definitely do this and report back, OP!

:popcorn:

Haha, minorities are scary, angry, and incapable of discussing controversial opinions. Nice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How nice of a woman to decide for boys what is and is not "acceptable masculinity" .

Can we get a male author to tell girls how to be feminine next?

What are your particular complaints? Because I'm a man and don't see any particular behaviors criticized by the author that I'd regard as desirable or even acceptable in a man.

Leaving aside the fact that I think the author is inventing most of those behaviors, it is not the place of any woman to tell boys and men how to be masculine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How nice of a woman to decide for boys what is and is not "acceptable masculinity" .

Can we get a male author to tell girls how to be feminine next?

Men have been doing this for centuries and continue to do so.

And if men try to do this today, however gently and well-intentioned, it elicits a universal scream of rage from women.

If men aren't allowed to tell women how to be "acceptably feminine" then women are not allowed to tell men how to be "acceptably masculine".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a passage in the article talking about how gross out humor among boys -- poop jokes and such -- can evolve into saying crude things about women. That felt very familiar to me. I'm almost 50 years old now, so maybe things have changed. But when I was a teenager, maybe into my early twenties, I'd say the crudest stuff about women and others just to get a laugh from my friends. I absolutely didn't mean any of it -- it was just word games that got a laugh.

But now I can see how those jokes just feed into something worse. If nothing else, it would reinforce the worldview of those guys around me who truly believed that women were lesser than men.

I'm 40 and had the same experience. It was just talk, no one actually took a girl to bed and did the angry dragon or whatever nonsense we joked about.

But I found the most disapointing part of the article to be the absolute lack of desirable male traits such as protection, leadership and honor. Those were things we all strongly believed in.

Blame feminism for that. Feminism has decreed that those traits are not, in fact, desirable. Strong, independent womyn don't need no man to protect and lead them!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I attended an all boys private school 10th -12th grade. I never heard or saw that what is represented in this article. I guess women believe Porkie’s, Animal House, Revenge of the Nerds, etc are a documentaries.

How long ago? I attended public high school in the late 80s and, in the early 90s, went to college with guys who'd gone to all-boys schools. (This was in the midwest, fwiw). I heard and saw stuff that was pretty close to that.

I went to a private boys high school in the 1980s and never heard anything like this. This article is clickbait garbage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also realize that there are many factors that contribute to racism.

Now walk into a room and tell a group of ethnic minorities that racism "isn't about them."

Definitely do this and report back, OP!

:popcorn:

This is so true.
Misogyny is so much more socially accepted than racism. If a black man was attacked by a white man in front of my office building today, the whole city would riot. If a woman was raped, people would question whether or not it really even happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also realize that there are many factors that contribute to racism.

Now walk into a room and tell a group of ethnic minorities that racism "isn't about them."

Definitely do this and report back, OP!

:popcorn:

This is so true.
Misogyny is so much more socially accepted than racism. If a black man was attacked by a white man in front of my office building today, the whole city would riot. If a woman was raped, people would question whether or not it really even happened.

Not if the white man was a cop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also realize that there are many factors that contribute to racism.

Now walk into a room and tell a group of ethnic minorities that racism "isn't about them."

Definitely do this and report back, OP!

:popcorn:

Haha, minorities are scary, angry, and incapable of discussing controversial opinions. Nice.

Where did I say the reaction wouldn't be a discussion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also realize that there are many factors that contribute to racism.

Now walk into a room and tell a group of ethnic minorities that racism "isn't about them."

Definitely do this and report back, OP!

:popcorn:

Haha, minorities are scary, angry, and incapable of discussing controversial opinions. Nice.

No. Minorities don’t take this BS.

Imagine this article was about a bunch of white boys at a private school making incredibly perverse, racist jokes.