Girls marginalized, boys allowed to control limited resources

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This could have happened with “bossy” girls too. I’d keep the boy vs girl out of the conversation and say can you help my daughter insert herself better into the process.

Ugh. Dp. I hate,hate hate when girls are called bossy and boys are leaders. Why ignore the elephant in the room. It is a boy thing. Would you the say the same thing if ot was a race thing. Ie white kids keeping a poc from the project?

Because it's not a boy thing or a race thing. It's a personality thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do I see most parents favoring their boys over their girls, regardless of their ages?

I see the opposite. Many women in particular feel free to openly say they'd rather have girls, feel crushed if they're not having girls, express relief they don't have boys, make comments to parents who have been "doomed" with the fate of only boys such as expressing wonderment as to how they will survive.

And btw, I have boys and girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This could have happened with “bossy” girls too. I’d keep the boy vs girl out of the conversation and say can you help my daughter insert herself better into the process.

+1 this has little to do with gender and much to do with personality. My son's teachers always said he got lost when seated with a table full of alpha girls or alpha boys.

Really, calling music inferior b/c they are a bunch of little girls . . . seems exactly linked to gender. That should not have been allowed by the camp.

Good grief. Let it go. You don't like it, tell the camp directors and don't send her back.

I agree with the others, it is likely that had it been three girls and one boy, you might have had similar results in reverse.

I understand equity and equality. But, let's get real. Boys and girls are different. That doesn't mean they cannot work together or have shared interests.

When I was that age, my favorite genre was historic romantic novels. My favorite movies were romantic comedies. I had no interest at all in adventure films or science fiction. Most of my friends were the same way. DD loves adventure films and science fiction and fantasy. DD would not have stood by and been dominated by boys--but some of her friends might have.

This is not the issue of the camp or the boys. It is an issue with your DD. Ask her about it..if she was okay with it, share your concerns--but, understand that she really might have been fine with it. Don't make her a victim Victimhood is not helpful.

Nor is making excuses. You just spent most of your post excusing those boys' sexist behavior, and the camp's condoning it. THAT is the issue here. And it's not being a victim to say so. And really, you're pretty much a dick for saying that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This could have happened with “bossy” girls too. I’d keep the boy vs girl out of the conversation and say can you help my daughter insert herself better into the process.

+1 this has little to do with gender and much to do with personality. My son's teachers always said he got lost when seated with a table full of alpha girls or alpha boys.

Really, calling music inferior b/c they are a bunch of little girls . . . seems exactly linked to gender. That should not have been allowed by the camp.

Good grief. Let it go. You don't like it, tell the camp directors and don't send her back.

I agree with the others, it is likely that had it been three girls and one boy, you might have had similar results in reverse.

I understand equity and equality. But, let's get real. Boys and girls are different. That doesn't mean they cannot work together or have shared interests.

When I was that age, my favorite genre was historic romantic novels. My favorite movies were romantic comedies. I had no interest at all in adventure films or science fiction. Most of my friends were the same way. DD loves adventure films and science fiction and fantasy. DD would not have stood by and been dominated by boys--but some of her friends might have.

This is not the issue of the camp or the boys. It is an issue with your DD. Ask her about it..if she was okay with it, share your concerns--but, understand that she really might have been fine with it. Don't make her a victim Victimhood is not helpful.

Nor is making excuses. You just spent most of your post excusing those boys' sexist behavior, and the camp's condoning it. THAT is the issue here. And it's not being a victim to say so. And really, you're pretty much a dick for saying that.

Your poor child.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I sincerely appreciate everyone's feedback, which has been super helpful. Parenting is hard, and I appreciate that this community of parents helps me when I get stuck. Here are my thoughts a day later, in no particular order:

1. It's not feasible to "get over it" and move on to another camp if I don't like it. This kind of thing happens everywhere, so it's not like I have oodles of better options somewhere else. The "if you don't like it, leave" advice works only when the thing you don't like is an isolated problem.

2. I'm not making my daughter a victim by calling out sexism where I see it. I am teaching her how to live in the real world, where she gets to decide what behaviors she will accept from others. Maybe she, you or others see it differently, and that's ok, we can still be friends (except for me with my daughter, because I am her mama, not her friend).

3. As an introvert myself and a former shy, quiet, compliant kid, I sincerely understand the urge to see the similarities between this situation and comparable personality-driven situations, which are also painful for kids. But there is a clear current of sexism here in the adults' willingness to let the boys control the video equipment and the direction of the project without intervention. It is part of a familiar pattern for many of us, myself included, and so is something that I have to resist on purpose. I also agree that my daughter's choices impacted how the situation turned out, but disagree that the solution is to hold her alone responsible for navigating these tricky problems. Part of the solution is for her to know that this sort of thing is common, whatever the reason, and figure out how to respond to it or work around it, but the other part of the solution is for the adults to do better next time.

4. I spoke with the camp and they expressed sincere regret that the lack of adult supervision allowed the comment about little girls vs. men to get into a final work product meant to showcase the kids' work for parents. They also told me that the portions of the project that my daughter had contributed to were inadvertently cut from the video that was shown to parents, again because of a lack of adult supervision of the editing portion of the project. They are sending home a copy so that she can finally show it to us. And, they also said that this particular group of three boys had really struggled this summer with being able to hear and incorporate the ideas of others, and that the adults should have done a better job of identifying this as a potential issue when my daughter joined their group halfway through the summer. They are planning program changes to address these issues, which they had already in part identified. With this feedback, I would feel good about sending my daughter to this camp again next year if she wants to go.

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm sorry for the innumerable instances that you experienced of being held back by sexism. They've certainly scarred you.

But your OP made me tired and your follow up is exhausting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This could have happened with “bossy” girls too. I’d keep the boy vs girl out of the conversation and say can you help my daughter insert herself better into the process.

Ugh. Dp. I hate,hate hate when girls are called bossy and boys are leaders. Why ignore the elephant in the room. It is a boy thing. Would you the say the same thing if ot was a race thing. Ie white kids keeping a poc from the project?

That is why I put "bossy' in quotes. Most people like OP will say... the bossy girls took over the camera. But they are just assertive. Yes, it is a decisive word used against females.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I sincerely appreciate everyone's feedback, which has been super helpful. Parenting is hard, and I appreciate that this community of parents helps me when I get stuck. Here are my thoughts a day later, in no particular order:

1. It's not feasible to "get over it" and move on to another camp if I don't like it. This kind of thing happens everywhere, so it's not like I have oodles of better options somewhere else. The "if you don't like it, leave" advice works only when the thing you don't like is an isolated problem.

2. I'm not making my daughter a victim by calling out sexism where I see it. I am teaching her how to live in the real world, where she gets to decide what behaviors she will accept from others. Maybe she, you or others see it differently, and that's ok, we can still be friends (except for me with my daughter, because I am her mama, not her friend).

3. As an introvert myself and a former shy, quiet, compliant kid, I sincerely understand the urge to see the similarities between this situation and comparable personality-driven situations, which are also painful for kids. But there is a clear current of sexism here in the adults' willingness to let the boys control the video equipment and the direction of the project without intervention. It is part of a familiar pattern for many of us, myself included, and so is something that I have to resist on purpose. I also agree that my daughter's choices impacted how the situation turned out, but disagree that the solution is to hold her alone responsible for navigating these tricky problems. Part of the solution is for her to know that this sort of thing is common, whatever the reason, and figure out how to respond to it or work around it, but the other part of the solution is for the adults to do better next time.

4. I spoke with the camp and they expressed sincere regret that the lack of adult supervision allowed the comment about little girls vs. men to get into a final work product meant to showcase the kids' work for parents. They also told me that the portions of the project that my daughter had contributed to were inadvertently cut from the video that was shown to parents, again because of a lack of adult supervision of the editing portion of the project. They are sending home a copy so that she can finally show it to us. And, they also said that this particular group of three boys had really struggled this summer with being able to hear and incorporate the ideas of others, and that the adults should have done a better job of identifying this as a potential issue when my daughter joined their group halfway through the summer. They are planning program changes to address these issues, which they had already in part identified. With this feedback, I would feel good about sending my daughter to this camp again next year if she wants to go.

Great response from the camp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I sincerely appreciate everyone's feedback, which has been super helpful. Parenting is hard, and I appreciate that this community of parents helps me when I get stuck. Here are my thoughts a day later, in no particular order:

1. It's not feasible to "get over it" and move on to another camp if I don't like it. This kind of thing happens everywhere, so it's not like I have oodles of better options somewhere else. The "if you don't like it, leave" advice works only when the thing you don't like is an isolated problem.

2. I'm not making my daughter a victim by calling out sexism where I see it. I am teaching her how to live in the real world, where she gets to decide what behaviors she will accept from others. Maybe she, you or others see it differently, and that's ok, we can still be friends (except for me with my daughter, because I am her mama, not her friend).

3. As an introvert myself and a former shy, quiet, compliant kid, I sincerely understand the urge to see the similarities between this situation and comparable personality-driven situations, which are also painful for kids. But there is a clear current of sexism here in the adults' willingness to let the boys control the video equipment and the direction of the project without intervention. It is part of a familiar pattern for many of us, myself included, and so is something that I have to resist on purpose. I also agree that my daughter's choices impacted how the situation turned out, but disagree that the solution is to hold her alone responsible for navigating these tricky problems. Part of the solution is for her to know that this sort of thing is common, whatever the reason, and figure out how to respond to it or work around it, but the other part of the solution is for the adults to do better next time.

4. I spoke with the camp and they expressed sincere regret that the lack of adult supervision allowed the comment about little girls vs. men to get into a final work product meant to showcase the kids' work for parents. They also told me that the portions of the project that my daughter had contributed to were inadvertently cut from the video that was shown to parents, again because of a lack of adult supervision of the editing portion of the project. They are sending home a copy so that she can finally show it to us. And, they also said that this particular group of three boys had really struggled this summer with being able to hear and incorporate the ideas of others, and that the adults should have done a better job of identifying this as a potential issue when my daughter joined their group halfway through the summer. They are planning program changes to address these issues, which they had already in part identified. With this feedback, I would feel good about sending my daughter to this camp again next year if she wants to go.

Great response from the camp.

No. The camp said things that they shouldn't have, obviously just to mollify her. They should not have opined on the three boys to her. If they felt there were problems, they should have been on it, rather than essentially gossiping post-fact about children. They likely aren't going to change anything, and as they've shown they gossip already, are probably gossiping internally about the crazy mom.

The response would make me stay away from the camp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This could have happened with “bossy” girls too. I’d keep the boy vs girl out of the conversation and say can you help my daughter insert herself better into the process.

+1 this has little to do with gender and much to do with personality. My son's teachers always said he got lost when seated with a table full of alpha girls or alpha boys.

Really, calling music inferior b/c they are a bunch of little girls . . . seems exactly linked to gender. That should not have been allowed by the camp.

Good grief. Let it go. You don't like it, tell the camp directors and don't send her back.

I agree with the others, it is likely that had it been three girls and one boy, you might have had similar results in reverse.

I understand equity and equality. But, let's get real. Boys and girls are different. That doesn't mean they cannot work together or have shared interests.

When I was that age, my favorite genre was historic romantic novels. My favorite movies were romantic comedies. I had no interest at all in adventure films or science fiction. Most of my friends were the same way. DD loves adventure films and science fiction and fantasy. DD would not have stood by and been dominated by boys--but some of her friends might have.

This is not the issue of the camp or the boys. It is an issue with your DD. Ask her about it..if she was okay with it, share your concerns--but, understand that she really might have been fine with it. Don't make her a victim Victimhood is not helpful.

Nor is making excuses. You just spent most of your post excusing those boys' sexist behavior, and the camp's condoning it. THAT is the issue here. And it's not being a victim to say so. And really, you're pretty much a dick for saying that.

Your poor child.

Back at you, sweetie.

[Anonymous]

My shy tween boy is in this situation all the time in group projects, at the hands of strong willed girls. It isn’t a sexism thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Girls need to learn how to advocate for themselves.

That’s the reality.

Helping all children learn how to self-advocate is part of an educator's job.

Umm, it is summer camp. Half the people working there are teenagers. This isn’t a year long issue in school, it is a summer camp activity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. She was not complaining. I also do not think she had some sort of meaty role behind the camera. The knot in my stomach tells me that she has already accepted as normal that boys' ideas come first.

Where I am stuck is in how to address this with the camp. What is it that the adults could have done differently? The only thing I can come up with is that they should have paid more attention to equitably dividing time with the equipment among the kids. But you all surely have more and better ideas.

I do appreciate the suggestions that she has to learn to advocate for herself. She's 11, and it's a work in progress. But equally I don't want to file all of this under "she needs to do better" when I know there is a sexism component that is out of her control, but within the power of the adults to, if not completely change, at least influence in a more positive direction.

Jeez - just find out if she participated in other group projects where there were three girls and one boy. The group dynamics would have been rather different.

Everyone knows that girls generally do better than boys now in high school and college. You are making a BFD out of one incident at a middle school summer camp?

[Anonymous]

OP look at your own family and dynamic. Do you have sons? I don’t mean this as criticism but I think your solution will lie more there than in camp.

My DD would have never accepted this arrangement and would have interjected her own part on the show. I’m probably too vocal and stubborn (bossy), but it’s the dynamic of our household. I’m sure some would call my DH a Beta, I just call him a science nerd toiling in the lab, but I think seeing a family dynamic with equal partners is key.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm sorry for the innumerable instances that you experienced of being held back by sexism. They've certainly scarred you.

But your OP made me tired and your follow up is exhausting.

How do you make it through the day?