Of counsel in Biglaw dc salary range

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Rude much? Maybe OP was given the talk because her barely top 100 firm isn’t doing very well. Or maybe it’s because all the male partners don’t see women as viable candidates. Or for some other reason unrelated to her skills. She may have something to offer a firm in need. She should talk to a recruiter.

You don't get passed over for partner at a barely top 100 Cleveland firm then move to a DC BigLaw firm as of counsel. It doesn't happen ever, I dare say, especially with no portable business."

Oh, well, it happened to me (except for the Cleveland part). Do you why? Because the decision had nothing to do with my skills or abilities. It had to do with the fact that I had a baby and the firm didn't believe new moms could be partners. Of course, the guy they did promote ending up failing badly - couldn't do business development to save his life, couldn't get any associates or support staff to do work for him because he was such a jerk, and clients didn't return to him for new work because he wasn't that great. So he ended up slinking off into some b.s. nonprofit policy job, while I moved on to a higher ranked firm.

Are you a white male, by any chance? Do you have no clue that firms can make bad decisions about the quality and character of the people they hire and promote, oftentimes because of implicit bias?

It’s clear that this PP is projecting her perception of what happened to her onto the OP’s situation. The simple fact is that the OP gave us nothing to go on in order to give her hope. She got the talk from a lower firm in. 3rd tier market. Blaming what happened on gender discrimination isn’t going to help either. OP must show how she can generate revenue and not be another mouth to feed if she has any hope of landing an OF Counsel gig at a DC BIGLAW firm. Starting with a request for information focused on compensation is the wrong way to go about things - unless she has a line on a position already, in which case the advice given on an anonymous message board is worth what she pays for it...

The idea of OP getting an of counsel position seems to make you really angry. Why is that?

DP. Jealousy, probably. But the poster isn’t wrong about the harsh realities and the extremely low chance this person has of getting such a job. Maybe with an intellectual property background?

No one has said OP is a shoo-in, it's been said repeatedly that specialty will matter. The move from Cleveland to DC gives context other than "the talk" for OP's job search, though, and if she's coming from someplace like Baker Hostetler or Squire Patton Boggs, that's a solid name on her resume.

I think some people also don't appreciate that the legal market is slowly and quietly changing in the non-partner track as firms realize there's a huge talent pool to tap into that don't necessarily want to be partners. My biglaw firm has hired a couple of of counsel in the past just into my practice group who hadn't practiced law at all in a number of years but were very skilled when they did. We were drowning in work, and so far these people have been a tremendous help in managing it because they do great work (including client-facing work) but they're not in the partner promotion pool so they're not crowding out associates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I am sorry but you have a total misconception of what the of counsel position is in big law DC. Typically it is for associates who have spent most of their careers in the firm, yet for one reason or another the firm isn’t prepared to make them a partner. Or, it’s for lawyers who join the firm from the government with the expectation that within a couple years you will be considered for partner. Unless you are highly specialized and fill a real void for a particular firm, these jobs are not normally available to senior associates from Cleveland law firms who have no business and were “given the talk.” You’re dreaming.

Sadly all true. Occasionally someone from government but they have to have a marketable portfolio.

Like what?

Know of a few who do international trade and compliance work.

[Anonymous]

To answer the OP, I think in midlaw you can expect in the $265-285 range plus 40-50 bonus. DH just left midlaw of counsel because he hated it, but that’s what he was making.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Rude much? Maybe OP was given the talk because her barely top 100 firm isn’t doing very well. Or maybe it’s because all the male partners don’t see women as viable candidates. Or for some other reason unrelated to her skills. She may have something to offer a firm in need. She should talk to a recruiter.

You don't get passed over for partner at a barely top 100 Cleveland firm then move to a DC BigLaw firm as of counsel. It doesn't happen ever, I dare say, especially with no portable business."

Oh, well, it happened to me (except for the Cleveland part). Do you why? Because the decision had nothing to do with my skills or abilities. It had to do with the fact that I had a baby and the firm didn't believe new moms could be partners. Of course, the guy they did promote ending up failing badly - couldn't do business development to save his life, couldn't get any associates or support staff to do work for him because he was such a jerk, and clients didn't return to him for new work because he wasn't that great. So he ended up slinking off into some b.s. nonprofit policy job, while I moved on to a higher ranked firm.

Are you a white male, by any chance? Do you have no clue that firms can make bad decisions about the quality and character of the people they hire and promote, oftentimes because of implicit bias?

It’s clear that this PP is projecting her perception of what happened to her onto the OP’s situation. The simple fact is that the OP gave us nothing to go on in order to give her hope. She got the talk from a lower firm in. 3rd tier market. Blaming what happened on gender discrimination isn’t going to help either. OP must show how she can generate revenue and not be another mouth to feed if she has any hope of landing an OF Counsel gig at a DC BIGLAW firm. Starting with a request for information focused on compensation is the wrong way to go about things - unless she has a line on a position already, in which case the advice given on an anonymous message board is worth what she pays for it...

The idea of OP getting an of counsel position seems to make you really angry. Why is that?

DP. Jealousy, probably. But the poster isn’t wrong about the harsh realities and the extremely low chance this person has of getting such a job. Maybe with an intellectual property background?

Nope, not jealousy at all. Just realistic as others have confirmed. Asking about money first - without providing any facts that support OP even having a chance at getting a position that pays that amount - is either naivety or arrogance. Unfortunately, both of these are in plentiful supply amongst many lawyers moving to DC from other markets. DC is a tough legal market to crack from the outside without some sort of local advantage or a rare skill set.

[Anonymous]

I think you need to apply for senior associate positions and tell firms you are moving bc of your spouse’s job.

If your own firm doesn’t offer you a counsel position there is a 0% chance a firm who doesn’t know you will.

Getting a senior associate position will probably be hard—easier if you are corporate or regulatory and have some kind of specialized knowledge. But, if you are a litigation cog, it’s going to be tough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you need to apply for senior associate positions and tell firms you are moving bc of your spouse’s job.

If your own firm doesn’t offer you a counsel position there is a 0% chance a firm who doesn’t know you will.

Getting a senior associate position will probably be hard—easier if you are corporate or regulatory and have some kind of specialized knowledge. But, if you are a litigation cog, it’s going to be tough.

To add on, you need to factor in (to your decision to move) that you might not have a salary for a long while. Can you guys make it in DC on just his job? The sticker shock coming from Cleveland is going to be real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know why the OP is concerned about salary range - BEFORE actually finding an Of Counsel position. No law firm is going to ask what you want in compensation as an Of Counsel until it wants to hire you.

You've been given the talk. That puts you in a hole with most law decent-sized DC firms, BIGLAW or otherwise. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. You have to come to grips with this, accept it, and have a very clear answer for potential law firm employers. It's the elephant in the room that they won't ignore.

With that unpleasantness out of the way, you need to give firms a reason to hire you. So far, you haven't given one. Your first step in finding an Of Counsel role is to identify what you can offer, and develop a business plan for turning that skill set/experience into $$$$. This doesn't mean you need to go out and get clients. Rather, you need to show how you will fit with the firm's business. Let's say that you have a great deal of experience defending against large class actions involving equipment manufacturer recalls (not a far throw for someone from Ohio). If you identify DC firms that do similar work, you can get your foot in the door if the firm has excess work that isn't being done (i.e. billed and collected - fees left on the table).

This is the frame of mind to have, OP. At this stage in your career, if you plan to stick with a firm, you have to understand that you should not be thinking like an employee (even if technically you would be one). You are your own business unit, and you have to give them a reason to want to add you to their portfolio and show how it will expand their business to do so. If you are more comfortable as an employee (a person hired to do a job that exists), then you should start looking in house or with the feds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know why the OP is concerned about salary range - BEFORE actually finding an Of Counsel position. No law firm is going to ask what you want in compensation as an Of Counsel until it wants to hire you.

You've been given the talk. That puts you in a hole with most law decent-sized DC firms, BIGLAW or otherwise. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. You have to come to grips with this, accept it, and have a very clear answer for potential law firm employers. It's the elephant in the room that they won't ignore.

With that unpleasantness out of the way, you need to give firms a reason to hire you. So far, you haven't given one. Your first step in finding an Of Counsel role is to identify what you can offer, and develop a business plan for turning that skill set/experience into $$$$. This doesn't mean you need to go out and get clients. Rather, you need to show how you will fit with the firm's business. Let's say that you have a great deal of experience defending against large class actions involving equipment manufacturer recalls (not a far throw for someone from Ohio). If you identify DC firms that do similar work, you can get your foot in the door if the firm has excess work that isn't being done (i.e. billed and collected - fees left on the table).

This is the frame of mind to have, OP. At this stage in your career, if you plan to stick with a firm, you have to understand that you should not be thinking like an employee (even if technically you would be one). You are your own business unit, and you have to give them a reason to want to add you to their portfolio and show how it will expand their business to do so. If you are more comfortable as an employee (a person hired to do a job that exists), then you should start looking in house or with the feds.

Correct. Young associates are employees, but those who want to make partner or of counsel) need to think like business owners. In fact, I think every lawyer who works for a firm or as in house counsel should do so. I hate to recommend him, but in this case you should Kiyosaki’s Rich Dad Poor Dad book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DH has a job offer in DC at NIH. We are coming from Cleveland, OH. I am currently a senior associate who has been given the talk at my top regional firm. It’s at the bottom of the vault 100 so I guess it counts as big law? Anyway, I have aged out of applying for associate positions so I think I am going to apply to some of counsel positions in dc. What is the general salary range for a new of counsel in dc big law? I have about 10 years of firm experience and will not be bringing any business with me.

Is the NIH job one of those “can’t pass up” kind of jobs? Maybe it would be better for your DH to stay at his current job and for you to look at Cleveland midlaw, given the much higher DC area COL.

[Anonymous]

The answer is high 300s up. But you won't get it. You should look at fed jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH has a job offer in DC at NIH. We are coming from Cleveland, OH. I am currently a senior associate who has been given the talk at my top regional firm. It’s at the bottom of the vault 100 so I guess it counts as big law? Anyway, I have aged out of applying for associate positions so I think I am going to apply to some of counsel positions in dc. What is the general salary range for a new of counsel in dc big law? I have about 10 years of firm experience and will not be bringing any business with me.

Is the NIH job one of those “can’t pass up” kind of jobs? Maybe it would be better for your DH to stay at his current job and for you to look at Cleveland midlaw, given the much higher DC area COL.

Sounds like this isn't what the OP and her husband have decided. Even if it were, OP still has the same problem - she must sell herself to firms as a revenue generator, not another mouth to feed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rude much? Maybe OP was given the talk because her barely top 100 firm isn’t doing very well. Or maybe it’s because all the male partners don’t see women as viable candidates. Or for some other reason unrelated to her skills. She may have something to offer a firm in need. She should talk to a recruiter.

LOL

[Anonymous]

OP will not get an of counsel job in big law in this town. End of story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP will not get an of counsel job in big law in this town. End of story.

Depends on if OP knows someone and is willing to "feed" her billable work. As she is moving from Cleveland, and her soon-to-be-former firm gave her the talk, this isn't likely the case. She's going to have to settle for less for a couple of years as she builds up her network in DC.

[Anonymous]

Why not look in-house?