Swim Team Coach/Parent Etiquette

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the relevant metric for a 9 year old should be how tired she is at the end of practice if you are trying to encourage her to grow in the sport. At 9, coaches should be focused on technique and stroke refinement more than yardage and intervals. It sounds to me like your issue is not that your daughter is in the wrong practice group, but that your club's coaches (because of absences, etc.) aren't focused enough on making her a better swimmer now, so that she can be a faster swimmer later. Too much emphasis on yardage and intervals at this age leads to injury and burn-out. And no 9-year old should be placed in a practice group based on a 400 IM time. That's not even a recognized event for the 9-10 age group. I also agree that the more stroke clinics, private technique work you can do, the better, as long as your kid is enjoying it. I don't think you need permission from your club to do that. If you do; find a new club. Your club should care more about your kid's welfare and development than in employing its own coaches for private lessons.

DD's coach that is on leave was all about yardage last year. DD was tired after practice so I was using that as a basis of comparison. Based on this information, and I agree with what you said... The best course of action would be to leave her be in the group that she's in and pursue private instruction. The coach a level up from ours just pounds yardage and does very little technique. Her private coach is excellent and works more on technique, strength and speed.

[Anonymous]

Her daughter turns 10 in the fall. At 10, yardage starts increasing, especially for girls. Only a warmup should be at least 600 (ideally a 1000), to prevent injury. Total yardage of 2500 per session would be completely adequate. 10-12 yo is where the heart capacity increases significantly, as well as height, body mass. Withoout adequate training a swimmer won’t be able to sustain added events as she gets older. Going to meets unprepared also carries trauma risk. At 10 it’s time to try 200s, and to prepare for a 200 you must swim at least 2000 of that stroke in training regularly, without much rest.
How do you have technique settle down without yardage? All sports are based on repetitive motion learning. There must be both aerobic and technique sessions offered in a good program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the relevant metric for a 9 year old should be how tired she is at the end of practice if you are trying to encourage her to grow in the sport. At 9, coaches should be focused on technique and stroke refinement more than yardage and intervals. It sounds to me like your issue is not that your daughter is in the wrong practice group, but that your club's coaches (because of absences, etc.) aren't focused enough on making her a better swimmer now, so that she can be a faster swimmer later. Too much emphasis on yardage and intervals at this age leads to injury and burn-out. And no 9-year old should be placed in a practice group based on a 400 IM time. That's not even a recognized event for the 9-10 age group. I also agree that the more stroke clinics, private technique work you can do, the better, as long as your kid is enjoying it. I don't think you need permission from your club to do that. If you do; find a new club. Your club should care more about your kid's welfare and development than in employing its own coaches for private lessons.

DD's coach that is on leave was all about yardage last year. DD was tired after practice so I was using that as a basis of comparison. Based on this information, and I agree with what you said... The best course of action would be to leave her be in the group that she's in and pursue private instruction. The coach a level up from ours just pounds yardage and does very little technique. Her private coach is excellent and works more on technique, strength and speed.

This does not sound like a good situation. Are you in the local area? There are so many other good options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Her daughter turns 10 in the fall. At 10, yardage starts increasing, especially for girls. Only a warmup should be at least 600 (ideally a 1000), to prevent injury. Total yardage of 2500 per session would be completely adequate. 10-12 yo is where the heart capacity increases significantly, as well as height, body mass. Withoout adequate training a swimmer won’t be able to sustain added events as she gets older. Going to meets unprepared also carries trauma risk. At 10 it’s time to try 200s, and to prepare for a 200 you must swim at least 2000 of that stroke in training regularly, without much rest.
How do you have technique settle down without yardage? All sports are based on repetitive motion learning. There must be both aerobic and technique sessions offered in a good program.

They aren't doing 600 to warm up. They did 200m and my kid sat there after she finished and waited for everyone else to finish. I didn't count laps but my guess would be they did about 1500m workout.

[Anonymous]

Placing a parent/former swimmer to train the group isn’t a good situation. Is that parent even certified to train? Looks like the group isn’t oriented to achieve any time standards.
At 10, your daughter needs to work to do JO/As in all strokes at a minimum by the time she’s 11, and swim all hundred events, 200FR&200IM. Anything below A/JO would place her at “slower than B” and non-transferable swimming category when she’s 11.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Her daughter turns 10 in the fall. At 10, yardage starts increasing, especially for girls. Only a warmup should be at least 600 (ideally a 1000), to prevent injury. Total yardage of 2500 per session would be completely adequate. 10-12 yo is where the heart capacity increases significantly, as well as height, body mass. Withoout adequate training a swimmer won’t be able to sustain added events as she gets older. Going to meets unprepared also carries trauma risk. At 10 it’s time to try 200s, and to prepare for a 200 you must swim at least 2000 of that stroke in training regularly, without much rest.
How do you have technique settle down without yardage? All sports are based on repetitive motion learning. There must be both aerobic and technique sessions offered in a good program.

They aren't doing 600 to warm up. They did 200m and my kid sat there after she finished and waited for everyone else to finish. I didn't count laps but my guess would be they did about 1500m workout.

Is your daughter B or BB now ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Her daughter turns 10 in the fall. At 10, yardage starts increasing, especially for girls. Only a warmup should be at least 600 (ideally a 1000), to prevent injury. Total yardage of 2500 per session would be completely adequate. 10-12 yo is where the heart capacity increases significantly, as well as height, body mass. Withoout adequate training a swimmer won’t be able to sustain added events as she gets older. Going to meets unprepared also carries trauma risk. At 10 it’s time to try 200s, and to prepare for a 200 you must swim at least 2000 of that stroke in training regularly, without much rest.
How do you have technique settle down without yardage? All sports are based on repetitive motion learning. There must be both aerobic and technique sessions offered in a good program.

They aren't doing 600 to warm up. They did 200m and my kid sat there after she finished and waited for everyone else to finish. I didn't count laps but my guess would be they did about 1500m workout.

Your daughter needs to memorize her workouts and know her times, not you. You can show the workouts schedule to your private trainer and ask if that’s adequate for your swimmer skills level. But in PVS, aerobic workouts of 2500 are pretty standard for B swimmers, 3500 for BB at 10

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Placing a parent/former swimmer to train the group isn’t a good situation. Is that parent even certified to train? Looks like the group isn’t oriented to achieve any time standards.
At 10, your daughter needs to work to do JO/As in all strokes at a minimum by the time she’s 11, and swim all hundred events, 200FR&200IM. Anything below A/JO would place her at “slower than B” and non-transferable swimming category when she’s 11.

What is a non-transferabel swimming category?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Placing a parent/former swimmer to train the group isn’t a good situation. Is that parent even certified to train? Looks like the group isn’t oriented to achieve any time standards.
At 10, your daughter needs to work to do JO/As in all strokes at a minimum by the time she’s 11, and swim all hundred events, 200FR&200IM. Anything below A/JO would place her at “slower than B” and non-transferable swimming category when she’s 11.

What is a non-transferabel swimming category?

Sorry for typos. You will have difficulties finding a good coach and a group where to transfer. Below B is basically beginners, those who just started to train at 11. Your daughter should be better than that on her 4th year of training, when she’s 11.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Her daughter turns 10 in the fall. At 10, yardage starts increasing, especially for girls. Only a warmup should be at least 600 (ideally a 1000), to prevent injury. Total yardage of 2500 per session would be completely adequate. 10-12 yo is where the heart capacity increases significantly, as well as height, body mass. Withoout adequate training a swimmer won’t be able to sustain added events as she gets older. Going to meets unprepared also carries trauma risk. At 10 it’s time to try 200s, and to prepare for a 200 you must swim at least 2000 of that stroke in training regularly, without much rest.
How do you have technique settle down without yardage? All sports are based on repetitive motion learning. There must be both aerobic and technique sessions offered in a good program.

I would agree with some of this, but some of it is outdated in approach. I think a warm-up of 600-800 is appropriate, but it should be varied and not a straight 600 free. I think 2500 yards at 9-10 is a reasonable volume, but I would also not be worried if some days the practice is more in the range of 1600-1800 if it is focused on technique. 10 year-olds only compete in 200 IM and 200 Free. 200 Back, Fly and Breast are 11-12 events. I think the notion that one should be swimming a 2000 to prepare for a 200 has been roundly disproved, especially at the younger levels. If my kid's coach were having my kid do 10 x 200 fly or 10 x 200 IM, I would be looking at other programs.

You build technique by drills, repetition and reinforcement. In order to do that you have to have coaches that are explaining why drills are done, correcting form errors, and watching swimmers closely. Piling on a bunch of yards most often results in kids swimming with poor form (either from fatigue or because they still haven't learned the correct form) which then results in injury and/or cementing improper form. You can take most kids -- assuming they have the proper mental mindset -- and pile mega-yardage on them. Many will get really fast, but they will then plateau or get injured. They plateau because there is a limit to how much you can muscle strokes, and if they have improper technique they will strain shoulders, etc. If your kid was running on her heels and swinging her arms wildly across her body, you wouldn't correct her form by telling her to run 20 800s, you would do a lot of drills to promote forefoot striking and running tall without crossing the body. Swimming has even more technique to than running given the multiple strokes, so it is all the more important to learn the right technique early.

I do agree that workouts should be varied and there should be interval-based training (shorter than 200, for sure), as well as some base aerobic work, but the emphasis at this age should be first and foremost on technique.

I do not think a parent volunteer is an acceptable stand-in coach. I am ASCA member and have been a swimmer all my life, but if my club asked me to pitch in and run workouts, I would be looking for a new club....

[Anonymous]

I would like to clarify what I said above about training a 2000 to prepare for 200. It wasn’t meant to say “swim 10*200s”, but a 2000 overal long set of that stroke drills, kick and graduated 25s, 50s, 75s, 100s at different level of speed/effort as instructed by the coach.
I am aware that you don’t train 10*200 of fly to swim 200FL, even in college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Her daughter turns 10 in the fall. At 10, yardage starts increasing, especially for girls. Only a warmup should be at least 600 (ideally a 1000), to prevent injury. Total yardage of 2500 per session would be completely adequate. 10-12 yo is where the heart capacity increases significantly, as well as height, body mass. Withoout adequate training a swimmer won’t be able to sustain added events as she gets older. Going to meets unprepared also carries trauma risk. At 10 it’s time to try 200s, and to prepare for a 200 you must swim at least 2000 of that stroke in training regularly, without much rest.
How do you have technique settle down without yardage? All sports are based on repetitive motion learning. There must be both aerobic and technique sessions offered in a good program.

I asked DD to keep track of her workout last night. It was 975m for a 1 hr workout. Mostly freestyle stuff, 1/100IM, some kick drills, skulling, pull, catch up, some arm drills. Lots of technique work. Lots of waiting for the group to finish the sets. During the IM she came in 30 seconds before the next fastest swimmer. She said she didn't feel challenged, so that's an issue to her. I wish the coaches would just notice this stuff and do something about it. It's obvious she's not working to her potential with the pace of the group. I told DD that we will set up a meeting with the head coach and she can let him know how she's feeling. In the meantime supplementing with private lessons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Her daughter turns 10 in the fall. At 10, yardage starts increasing, especially for girls. Only a warmup should be at least 600 (ideally a 1000), to prevent injury. Total yardage of 2500 per session would be completely adequate. 10-12 yo is where the heart capacity increases significantly, as well as height, body mass. Withoout adequate training a swimmer won’t be able to sustain added events as she gets older. Going to meets unprepared also carries trauma risk. At 10 it’s time to try 200s, and to prepare for a 200 you must swim at least 2000 of that stroke in training regularly, without much rest.
How do you have technique settle down without yardage? All sports are based on repetitive motion learning. There must be both aerobic and technique sessions offered in a good program.

I would agree with some of this, but some of it is outdated in approach. I think a warm-up of 600-800 is appropriate, but it should be varied and not a straight 600 free. I think 2500 yards at 9-10 is a reasonable volume, but I would also not be worried if some days the practice is more in the range of 1600-1800 if it is focused on technique. 10 year-olds only compete in 200 IM and 200 Free. 200 Back, Fly and Breast are 11-12 events. I think the notion that one should be swimming a 2000 to prepare for a 200 has been roundly disproved, especially at the younger levels. If my kid's coach were having my kid do 10 x 200 fly or 10 x 200 IM, I would be looking at other programs.

You build technique by drills, repetition and reinforcement. In order to do that you have to have coaches that are explaining why drills are done, correcting form errors, and watching swimmers closely. Piling on a bunch of yards most often results in kids swimming with poor form (either from fatigue or because they still haven't learned the correct form) which then results in injury and/or cementing improper form. You can take most kids -- assuming they have the proper mental mindset -- and pile mega-yardage on them. Many will get really fast, but they will then plateau or get injured. They plateau because there is a limit to how much you can muscle strokes, and if they have improper technique they will strain shoulders, etc. If your kid was running on her heels and swinging her arms wildly across her body, you wouldn't correct her form by telling her to run 20 800s, you would do a lot of drills to promote forefoot striking and running tall without crossing the body. Swimming has even more technique to than running given the multiple strokes, so it is all the more important to learn the right technique early.

I do agree that workouts should be varied and there should be interval-based training (shorter than 200, for sure), as well as some base aerobic work, but the emphasis at this age should be first and foremost on technique.

I do not think a parent volunteer is an acceptable stand-in coach. I am ASCA member and have been a swimmer all my life, but if my club asked me to pitch in and run workouts, I would be looking for a new club....

The parent is a certified coach if that makes a difference

[Anonymous]

The 975 yards workout is too little for a soon turning 10 yo. I think your problem is that you expect your daughter to improve times, but the group she’s placed into is largely recreational or “learn to swim”/developmental.
Having parents helping around is not professional, even if it is a certified coach. It’s also combustible socially as parents acting as coaches tend to favor certain swimmers and form cliques with other parents against others, openly support their own kids (if they train in that same group) and some team members while plotting against others. But it makes sense to wait with scheduling meeting with head coach antil after her official times after 1st meet are known, otherwise there is no point for discussion. Maybe the club is also waiting for October meets results to move some children who gotten faster over the summer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The 975 yards workout is too little for a soon turning 10 yo. I think your problem is that you expect your daughter to improve times, but the group she’s placed into is largely recreational or “learn to swim”/developmental.
Having parents helping around is not professional, even if it is a certified coach. It’s also combustible socially as parents acting as coaches tend to favor certain swimmers and form cliques with other parents against others, openly support their own kids (if they train in that same group) and some team members while plotting against others. But it makes sense to wait with scheduling meeting with head coach antil after her official times after 1st meet are known, otherwise there is no point for discussion. Maybe the club is also waiting for October meets results to move some children who gotten faster over the summer

Totally agree with you. All last year, with the coach that went on leave, they swam at least 2000m x 4 days a week. I feel the sub coach is teaching down to the newer members of the group, one being her son. I agree we have to wait until there are times on record to have a point of conversation. Tonight they spent 75% of the hour doing turn drills. This left a ton of idle time while the coach corrected 2 kids at a time. I had to leave work an hour and a half early to get DD there. DD was frustrated with the practice. Felt like a waste of time.