Is it good or bad that MCPS placed Magnet schools in the lowest performing schools?

[Anonymous]

Olney and these other areas were middle class but housing prices have gone very high and they are no longer middle class. When I grew up, anything past Rockville was basically farm country/middle of nowhere. Clarksburg and Germantown were barely existent.

[Anonymous]

No, we don't. Merit means academic performance in the classroom and the actual admission test. Merit does not mean race, gender, or low SES, or being zoned to poor performing schools. Please do not twist the meaning of merit to mean what you think it should mean. This is social engineering for a problem (achievement gap) that MCPS has failed to solve by actually teaching poor performing URM students. MCPS has played the race card very cleverly and divided the parent community. They have made highly gifted students and high performing racial groups the villains, whereas the truth is that they have failed to bring up the standards of education and achievement of URM students for years now. We have many students who are functionally illiterate and they are graduating out of MCPS. All MCPS cares is the optics that many delusional people buy. This is a way for MCPS to be absolved of all responsibilities to not bridge the achievement gap. In fact in the last 7 years the gap has widened.

+1 Magnet admission is not merit based. I agree with the above poster that merit by definition does not mean factoring in location, race, SES or any other factor other than academic achievement and performance. MCPS tests for a baseline and then plays with demographics to get the appearance it wants.

I actually would support setting aside affirmative action seats for low SES minority students that score over a baseline requirement and are held to the same standards once they are in the magnet. I don't support MCPS only being partially transparent about doing it. I also don't support MCPS playing the race card against Asian Americans to appease the UMC or MC whites in the DCC to save their spots. This was just plain wrong and MCPS will lose the lawsuit that is coming their way. I'm not Asian American.

The bolded part from above is the biggest problem. MCPS spends too much time trying to deceive people and change the optics without trying to solve the problem. They don't care about gifted children or underperforming children. For MCPS, they are all just widgets and the organization just wants to create the optics that the widgets are all just doing fine when they aren't.

[Anonymous]

This isn't an altogether accurate assumption. In MCPS the magnet programs are typically small and have a nominal impact on overall numbers. As has been cited numerous times, all MCPS schools perform similarly, the main differences can be attributed to demographic differences. Want to know how your kid will do at a given school? Look up their cohort in the test scores by demographic.

I disagree .While internally MCPS may be separating out the numbers to understand how the general population is actually doing, this isn't what goes public. A magnet program can have a very large impact on things like average SAT scores, AP courses, and other factors that people see when judging a school. If 10% of your pool are high outliers and the scores you are gathering don't include the bottom half by self selection then it has a big impact. Its about the optics and this is why the GT magnet program was originally about trying to desegregate not meet the needs of gifted students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

+1 Magnet admission is not merit based. I agree with the above poster that merit by definition does not mean factoring in location, race, SES or any other factor other than academic achievement and performance. MCPS tests for a baseline and then plays with demographics to get the appearance it wants.

I actually would support setting aside affirmative action seats for low SES minority students that score over a baseline requirement and are held to the same standards once they are in the magnet. I don't support MCPS only being partially transparent about doing it. I also don't support MCPS playing the race card against Asian Americans to appease the UMC or MC whites in the DCC to save their spots. This was just plain wrong and MCPS will lose the lawsuit that is coming their way. I'm not Asian American.

The bolded part from above is the biggest problem. MCPS spends too much time trying to deceive people and change the optics without trying to solve the problem. They don't care about gifted children or underperforming children. For MCPS, they are all just widgets and the organization just wants to create the optics that the widgets are all just doing fine when they aren't.

That would be illegal.

What evidence do you have that MCPS "plays with demographics"? What data do you have about the demographics of the admitted classes?

(I hope that you have nothing to do with kids in the magnet programs -- given your assumption that any poor, black, and Hispanic kids in the programs only got in because of their race/ethnicity/family income and aren't able to do the work.)

[Anonymous]

That would be illegal.

Yes it is and MCPS is going to have its ass handed to it in court. MCPS is just like Trump and his public admissions of collusion and then adamant denials. They are on record that in order to rebalance the racial and socio economic make up of the magnet programs they not only adopted universal testing but changed the admissions criteria lowering it to above 90% and blocking admission for students from a small set of schools that happen to be the ones with a majority or close to majority Asian American population. MCPS was disturbed that Asian American were represented in magnets at over twice their rate as a % of the general population.

Personally, I would be OK with lowering of the bar to 90% - still seems high enough to me to be able to perform- if this is what is needed to identify enough lower SES minority students. The students that don't deserve to be there over the Asian American students who scored high 90s though are the UMC/MC white students who scored under high 90s. MCPS did not want to take away white seats from DCC residents and they wanted to take away seats from Asian students in high performing districts.

This type of behavior really makes the magnets a liability not an asset. MCPS should start early programs that identify lower SES with high potential and offer intensive extra curriculum resources to these students. Many may have the potential to score high but they need more than 2.0 in the classroom all day. MCPS should be looking at increasing Magnet spots so that any child scoring in the mid to high 90s gains entrance.

MCPS needs to stop worrying about who moves where and simply focus on educating the top, middle and bottom performers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That would be illegal.

Yes it is and MCPS is going to have its ass handed to it in court. MCPS is just like Trump and his public admissions of collusion and then adamant denials. They are on record that in order to rebalance the racial and socio economic make up of the magnet programs they not only adopted universal testing but changed the admissions criteria lowering it to above 90% and blocking admission for students from a small set of schools that happen to be the ones with a majority or close to majority Asian American population. MCPS was disturbed that Asian American were represented in magnets at over twice their rate as a % of the general population.

Personally, I would be OK with lowering of the bar to 90% - still seems high enough to me to be able to perform- if this is what is needed to identify enough lower SES minority students. The students that don't deserve to be there over the Asian American students who scored high 90s though are the UMC/MC white students who scored under high 90s. MCPS did not want to take away white seats from DCC residents and they wanted to take away seats from Asian students in high performing districts.

This type of behavior really makes the magnets a liability not an asset. MCPS should start early programs that identify lower SES with high potential and offer intensive extra curriculum resources to these students. Many may have the potential to score high but they need more than 2.0 in the classroom all day. MCPS should be looking at increasing Magnet spots so that any child scoring in the mid to high 90s gains entrance.

MCPS needs to stop worrying about who moves where and simply focus on educating the top, middle and bottom performers.

Or you need to realize pulling out parent driven applications, expanding the pool, and changing the test meant certain students were no longer the best qualified on.....merit!!! Hey did you read the recent Economist article on how racist the culture is in one really large Asian country?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That would be illegal.

Yes it is and MCPS is going to have its ass handed to it in court. MCPS is just like Trump and his public admissions of collusion and then adamant denials. They are on record that in order to rebalance the racial and socio economic make up of the magnet programs they not only adopted universal testing but changed the admissions criteria lowering it to above 90% and blocking admission for students from a small set of schools that happen to be the ones with a majority or close to majority Asian American population. MCPS was disturbed that Asian American were represented in magnets at over twice their rate as a % of the general population.

Personally, I would be OK with lowering of the bar to 90% - still seems high enough to me to be able to perform- if this is what is needed to identify enough lower SES minority students. The students that don't deserve to be there over the Asian American students who scored high 90s though are the UMC/MC white students who scored under high 90s. MCPS did not want to take away white seats from DCC residents and they wanted to take away seats from Asian students in high performing districts.

This type of behavior really makes the magnets a liability not an asset. MCPS should start early programs that identify lower SES with high potential and offer intensive extra curriculum resources to these students. Many may have the potential to score high but they need more than 2.0 in the classroom all day. MCPS should be looking at increasing Magnet spots so that any child scoring in the mid to high 90s gains entrance.

MCPS needs to stop worrying about who moves where and simply focus on educating the top, middle and bottom performers.

Or you need to realize pulling out parent driven applications, expanding the pool, and changing the test meant certain students were no longer the best qualified on.....merit!!! Hey did you read the recent Economist article on how racist the culture is in one really large Asian country?

what?

Look MCPS should just come out and say point blank. If you are at a W school your kid is going to be fine. They don't need to be in a magnet. W schools are defacto magnets already due to high SES

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am an Asian-American parent, with kids who have been/are in the magnet programs. I do not mind that my kid is being bused to school that are lowest performing and I do not mind that my kid takes some classes with non-magnet students. I think it is a win-win for all - students, MCPS - that we have magnet schools that are placed in the lowest performing schools.

What I want to see is an expansion of the magnet program, more seats, and merit based selection. I want the test statistics of chosen students shared with everyone. I want the magnet programs to have more enrichment AND I want the magnet curriculum, projects and assignments to be freely available and shared with the entire county using MyMCPS portal.

I think keeping a portion of the seats for local students who show academic capability and competitive stats is a good thing. It attracts people to homes in these areas. The aim of magnet may have been integration, and now it seems that it has shifted to closing the achievement gap. Magnet programs are not the right tool to close achievement gaps.

What I would like to see is that magnet remains the vehicle for meeting the needs of all highly gifted students as well as providing them a cohort of similar ability students. I do believe that all students should be tested for these programs though. That is a good step.

This is what happened to RM with the IB magnet. RMIB has set aside seats for in cluster students. This attracts higher SES folks to the area. It attracted us.

Prior to the IB magnet at RM, the school was rated quite low, with a high FARMs rate. There were lots of protests when the richer areas of Rockville were rezoned for RM, and lots of parents sent their kids to private school instead. Fast forward 20 years, and RM has a much different SES mix and reputation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes it is and MCPS is going to have its ass handed to it in court. MCPS is just like Trump and his public admissions of collusion and then adamant denials. They are on record that in order to rebalance the racial and socio economic make up of the magnet programs they not only adopted universal testing but changed the admissions criteria lowering it to above 90% and blocking admission for students from a small set of schools that happen to be the ones with a majority or close to majority Asian American population. MCPS was disturbed that Asian American were represented in magnets at over twice their rate as a % of the general population.

Has a lawsuit been filed?

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, it's not against the law to use student cohort in the zoned home middle school as a factor in magnet admissions. Well, we'll find out (if somebody does indeed file a lawsuit).

[Anonymous]

ISnt threat of discrimatory lawsuit the reason MCPS is now piloting a magnet-lite MS curriculum in some MS and bringing back ability tracking to some and then most MS classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ISnt threat of discrimatory lawsuit the reason MCPS is now piloting a magnet-lite MS curriculum in some MS and bringing back ability tracking to some and then most MS classes?

No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That would be illegal.

Yes it is and MCPS is going to have its ass handed to it in court. MCPS is just like Trump and his public admissions of collusion and then adamant denials. They are on record that in order to rebalance the racial and socio economic make up of the magnet programs they not only adopted universal testing but changed the admissions criteria lowering it to above 90% and blocking admission for students from a small set of schools that happen to be the ones with a majority or close to majority Asian American population. MCPS was disturbed that Asian American were represented in magnets at over twice their rate as a % of the general population.

Personally, I would be OK with lowering of the bar to 90% - still seems high enough to me to be able to perform- if this is what is needed to identify enough lower SES minority students. The students that don't deserve to be there over the Asian American students who scored high 90s though are the UMC/MC white students who scored under high 90s. MCPS did not want to take away white seats from DCC residents and they wanted to take away seats from Asian students in high performing districts.

This type of behavior really makes the magnets a liability not an asset. MCPS should start early programs that identify lower SES with high potential and offer intensive extra curriculum resources to these students. Many may have the potential to score high but they need more than 2.0 in the classroom all day. MCPS should be looking at increasing Magnet spots so that any child scoring in the mid to high 90s gains entrance.

MCPS needs to stop worrying about who moves where and simply focus on educating the top, middle and bottom performers.

I believe that a program like this does now exist in MCPS - I think some focus schools have started a special enriched studies summer program for identified high ability kids. No personal experience with it, though. Not anywhere the same as sustained classroom enrichment and the resources of a higher income community, but a positive step for those kids.

Absolutely agree that more magnet spots means more high ability kids getting the chance to thrive, and it is waste of a lot of bright young minds that they don’t all get that chance. It would be great to see more comprehensive programs for in-school enrichment, too, so that kids don’t have to leave their friends and community to get the chance to learn to their potential. A little teacher training could go a long way to improving the current “extra challenge worksheet” that kids get as lip service to enrichment in the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The original history of the magnet programs was to accomplish "pull" integration. They were placed in high minority schools (which also happen to be poorer performing for a variety of reasons like segregation) in the hope that people would willingly integrate these schools by applying to magnet programs.

This happened in the late 70s and early 80s. It is somewhat shocking that MoCo was still pretty segregated even then. But as MoCo officials were trying to decide how to integrate, they had to consider how efforts at "push" integration worked around them. In DC, there was white flight out of the city. In Prince William, VA, the county shut the public school system down entirely. In Boston, there was a lot of protesting of busing.

MoCo decided to use magnets as "pull" integrators until a Suprem Court case barred the use of race as a factor in transfers btwn schools for magnet programs.

Magnets were also used to assuage the white fears that integrated schools would be weaker academically. The perception of weaker academics could spur white flight. So magnets became a white retention strategy, even though admission was by supposedly neutral testing.

Also, there used to be more magnets - for example, Chevy chase, North Chevy Chase and Rosemary Hills all used to have special math, science or technology programs. This was done to retain families when those schools were changed to split articulation in order to integrate with the "black" elementary, Rosemary Hills.

I remember this because I was a student in the system when it happened.

Fascinating. So are the schools that still have magnet programs more integrated now or about the same? It seems to me that the magnets only serve to hide the poor performance of the general student body and give MCPS a pass on dealing with the problems within that school.

I remember my low performing magnet elementary school in North Carolina was about 50% Asian, 30% black and so on. The kids bused from other parts of the county(mostly Asian) excelled but the overall rating of the school remained low because some of the other kids just couldn't keep up. I loved that magnet program. Classes like Spanish, drama, chess, Intro to stage, sign language, piano lessons,etc.
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[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What evidence do you have that MCPS "plays with demographics"? What data do you have about the demographics of the admitted classes?

(I hope that you have nothing to do with kids in the magnet programs -- given your assumption that any poor, black, and Hispanic kids in the programs only got in because of their race/ethnicity/family income and aren't able to do the work.)

I have a lot to do with kids in the magnet programs, all three of my kids are products of the magnet programs in MCPS. But I did not make any assumption about poor, black and Hispanic kids - you did! I know a number of black and Hispanic students in magnet programs who are doing well. Yes, they are very small numbers, and most of the blacks are children of recent educated and affluent immigrants from Africa . The poor students are spread equally among the races in the magnet programs, but he majority of those who need financial help (fieldtrip costs mainly) are poor White and Hispanic students.

It is very interesting that the poverty among White students is swept under the rugs on this forum, and so does the ESOL needs of Asian students.

Since the Metis Report came, MCPS has changed the selection criteria and it is not the test performance anymore. The evidence is what was done to Takoma Park and Eastern MS admissions. So, now we can say that the Black and Hispanic students who got selected were not chosen because of their steller qualifications but due to other factors.

Will they be able to do the work? Well, since they were not the top students, they certainly will drag down the pace and rigor of the entire class. Is that a terrible thing? I don;t know. You do not have to be intelligent to become the president of the US, so who are we to say that mediocre URM students should not at least get the stamp of magnet programs on them, even if they can't perform? After all US is not meritocracy anymore, it is idiocracy.

[Anonymous]

Why not take top 6% of student based on a rigorous admission test instead of the admission test lite that we have been getting for the past two years? That will double up the number of students that can get into the magnet programs.

Make the magnet curriculum, assignments and projects available to all schools, so any kid/parents in any grade, can attempt to do that on their own.