Is it good or bad that MCPS placed Magnet schools in the lowest performing schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The original history of the magnet programs was to accomplish "pull" integration. They were placed in high minority schools (which also happen to be poorer performing for a variety of reasons like segregation) in the hope that people would willingly integrate these schools by applying to magnet programs.

This happened in the late 70s and early 80s. It is somewhat shocking that MoCo was still pretty segregated even then. But as MoCo officials were trying to decide how to integrate, they had to consider how efforts at "push" integration worked around them. In DC, there was white flight out of the city. In Prince William, VA, the county shut the public school system down entirely. In Boston, there was a lot of protesting of busing.

MoCo decided to use magnets as "pull" integrators until a Suprem Court case barred the use of race as a factor in transfers btwn schools for magnet programs.

Magnets were also used to assuage the white fears that integrated schools would be weaker academically. The perception of weaker academics could spur white flight. So magnets became a white retention strategy, even though admission was by supposedly neutral testing.

Also, there used to be more magnets - for example, Chevy chase, North Chevy Chase and Rosemary Hills all used to have special math, science or technology programs. This was done to retain families when those schools were changed to split articulation in order to integrate with the "black" elementary, Rosemary Hills.

I remember this because I was a student in the system when it happened.

Fascinating. So are the schools that still have magnet programs more integrated now or about the same? It seems to me that the magnets only serve to hide the poor performance of the general student body and give MCPS a pass on dealing with the problems within that school.

This isn't an altogether accurate assumption. In MCPS the magnet programs are typically small and have a nominal impact on overall numbers. As has been cited numerous times, all MCPS schools perform similarly, the main differences can be attributed to demographic differences. Want to know how your kid will do at a given school? Look up their cohort in the test scores by demographic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought that the W schools go to Poolesville for STEM. Was Poolesville a failing school back in the 70s or were they trying to attract people out to the agricultural areas?

The eastern and up county schools go to Blair for STEM which still is a poor performing school of you take out the magnet program. It didn't seem to help.

No.

Blair:

Bethesda-Chevy Chase
Winston Churchill
Walter Johnson
Richard Montgomery
Rockville
Sherwood
Walt Whitman
Thomas S. Wootton
Northeast Consortium
Downcounty Consortium

Poolesville:

Clarksburg
Damascus
Gaithersburg
Magruder
Northwest
Poolesville
Quince Orchard
Seneca Valley
Watkins Mill

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/specialprograms/high/magnet-science.aspx

[Anonymous]

Also, the upcounty magnet in Poolesville opened in 2006.

http://www.gazette.net/stories/083006/aspenew221620_31993.shtml

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Read the Metis Report on choice program, it has all the history and what is the problem the county is trying to solve now.

This report also looked at the effect on home school test scores for schools that sent kids to magnets.

[Anonymous]

First, not all special programs are placed in low performing schools. Second, regardless of why a magnet was initially placed, the reason it is where it is today is inertia (more teachers than students). There was talk of moving CAP at one point and the teachers squashed it before parents even heard anything.

The magnets do not mask a low performing school. The way schools are rated has everything to do with how demographic subgroups perform comparatively (achievement gap, anyone?). If a magnet like Blair is predominantly White/Asian that would actually raise the average scores in groups that already do well and have no effect on underachieving groups (did you see the Blair/Sherwood thread?), so the gap with magnet would be greater at Blair. But of course, MCPS knows how to calculate averages without including magnet students when they aren't studying the magnet.

Anyway, don't worry, Blair is not being damaged because it hosts the magnet. But, if the decision were being made today, the choice would probably be different, say Woodward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I believe the magnet programs have in large part caused further divide in the MCPS school system. When you bus gifted children from all school districts to another school...naturally, the original school district where those children would have made a positive impact are no longer there. All that is left are the second tier students whom in the end pull down not only test scores for the school but also college admissions rankings.
The end result is that schools like Paint Branch High school, Sherwood HS, etc ... are now in communities that NOBODY want to move to. It is like a snow ball effect on these communities...school goes downhill, new families stop moving there, the older generations cannot sell their houses, housing prices plummet, low income families move in, and the cycle keeps going on and on...

You should rephrase the fact that most students that are gifted are sent to magnet schools outside of their home school...

Otherwise, I completely agree with this view regarding the MCPS magnet program...it was a failure on schools in some areas of the county that have caused housing catastrophe. Especially the eastern part of Montgomery county near the PG county border. It is sad to drive through some of those neighborhoods...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First, not all special programs are placed in low performing schools. Second, regardless of why a magnet was initially placed, the reason it is where it is today is inertia (more teachers than students). There was talk of moving CAP at one point and the teachers squashed it before parents even heard anything.

The magnets do not mask a low performing school. The way schools are rated has everything to do with how demographic subgroups perform comparatively (achievement gap, anyone?). If a magnet like Blair is predominantly White/Asian that would actually raise the average scores in groups that already do well and have no effect on underachieving groups (did you see the Blair/Sherwood thread?), so the gap with magnet would be greater at Blair. But of course, MCPS knows how to calculate averages without including magnet students when they aren't studying the magnet.

Anyway, don't worry, Blair is not being damaged because it hosts the magnet. But, if the decision were being made today, the choice would probably be different, say Woodward.

Great post!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the magnet programs have in large part caused further divide in the MCPS school system. When you bus gifted children from all school districts to another school...naturally, the original school district where those children would have made a positive impact are no longer there. All that is left are the second tier students whom in the end pull down not only test scores for the school but also college admissions rankings.
The end result is that schools like Paint Branch High school, Sherwood HS, etc ... are now in communities that NOBODY want to move to. It is like a snow ball effect on these communities...school goes downhill, new families stop moving there, the older generations cannot sell their houses, housing prices plummet, low income families move in, and the cycle keeps going on and on...

no one wants to move to sherwood??? what are you talking about

There are few developments with SFH starting in the $800s. I've been here all of my life, and I've seen Olney in particular move from rural to fairly suburban with large homes in Sandy Spring, Brookeville, Ashton, too.

PP is a nut job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the magnet programs have in large part caused further divide in the MCPS school system. When you bus gifted children from all school districts to another school...naturally, the original school district where those children would have made a positive impact are no longer there. All that is left are the second tier students whom in the end pull down not only test scores for the school but also college admissions rankings.
The end result is that schools like Paint Branch High school, Sherwood HS, etc ... are now in communities that NOBODY want to move to. It is like a snow ball effect on these communities...school goes downhill, new families stop moving there, the older generations cannot sell their houses, housing prices plummet, low income families move in, and the cycle keeps going on and on...

no one wants to move to sherwood??? what are you talking about

There are few developments with SFH starting in the $800s. I've been here all of my life, and I've seen Olney in particular move from rural to fairly suburban with large homes in Sandy Spring, Brookeville, Ashton, too.

PP is a nut job.

+1. Also, Olney is middle class. It isn’t low income. For Pete’s sake. These crazy doomsday people who believe everything outside of Bethesda/cc/Potomac is a zombie wasteland, I mean, really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, the upcounty magnet in Poolesville opened in 2006.

http://www.gazette.net/stories/083006/aspenew221620_31993.shtml

The Poolesville magnet was created in order to keep the high school open. Not enough students otherwise. Out of 1200 students, 600 are magnet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We didn't live here when this first occurred but what were the original goals of placing the high school magnet programs in the worst performing schools? Does it work or does it create a false impression of the schools, hide problems in failing schools and create bigger performance divisions in areas? Do the non-magnet kids benefit in any way from having a school within a school?

What would happen in they all shut down and everyone went back to their home school? Wouldn't those kids still do well anyway and then resources could be focused on the struggling students?

GOod eye. yes that was by design.

The physical location - so far east county - was also by design. To lure more educated parents to those cities, especially if they have different job commutes than downtown or VA, with the hopes of attending the programs, paying less for a house, strengthening the community and safety.

Also, look at various school districts % of G&T they can serve. It is a low % here in MCPS, which is a two-way swing since there are also so many educated parent families.

[Anonymous]

I am an Asian-American parent, with kids who have been/are in the magnet programs. I do not mind that my kid is being bused to school that are lowest performing and I do not mind that my kid takes some classes with non-magnet students. I think it is a win-win for all - students, MCPS - that we have magnet schools that are placed in the lowest performing schools.

What I want to see is an expansion of the magnet program, more seats, and merit based selection. I want the test statistics of chosen students shared with everyone. I want the magnet programs to have more enrichment AND I want the magnet curriculum, projects and assignments to be freely available and shared with the entire county using MyMCPS portal.

I think keeping a portion of the seats for local students who show academic capability and competitive stats is a good thing. It attracts people to homes in these areas. The aim of magnet may have been integration, and now it seems that it has shifted to closing the achievement gap. Magnet programs are not the right tool to close achievement gaps.

What I would like to see is that magnet remains the vehicle for meeting the needs of all highly gifted students as well as providing them a cohort of similar ability students. I do believe that all students should be tested for these programs though. That is a good step.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am an Asian-American parent, with kids who have been/are in the magnet programs. I do not mind that my kid is being bused to school that are lowest performing and I do not mind that my kid takes some classes with non-magnet students. I think it is a win-win for all - students, MCPS - that we have magnet schools that are placed in the lowest performing schools.

What I want to see is an expansion of the magnet program, more seats, and merit based selection. I want the test statistics of chosen students shared with everyone. I want the magnet programs to have more enrichment AND I want the magnet curriculum, projects and assignments to be freely available and shared with the entire county using MyMCPS portal.

I think keeping a portion of the seats for local students who show academic capability and competitive stats is a good thing. It attracts people to homes in these areas. The aim of magnet may have been integration, and now it seems that it has shifted to closing the achievement gap. Magnet programs are not the right tool to close achievement gaps.

What I would like to see is that magnet remains the vehicle for meeting the needs of all highly gifted students as well as providing them a cohort of similar ability students. I do believe that all students should be tested for these programs though. That is a good step.

We have merit-based selection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an Asian-American parent, with kids who have been/are in the magnet programs. I do not mind that my kid is being bused to school that are lowest performing and I do not mind that my kid takes some classes with non-magnet students. I think it is a win-win for all - students, MCPS - that we have magnet schools that are placed in the lowest performing schools.

What I want to see is an expansion of the magnet program, more seats, and merit based selection. I want the test statistics of chosen students shared with everyone. I want the magnet programs to have more enrichment AND I want the magnet curriculum, projects and assignments to be freely available and shared with the entire county using MyMCPS portal.

I think keeping a portion of the seats for local students who show academic capability and competitive stats is a good thing. It attracts people to homes in these areas. The aim of magnet may have been integration, and now it seems that it has shifted to closing the achievement gap. Magnet programs are not the right tool to close achievement gaps.

What I would like to see is that magnet remains the vehicle for meeting the needs of all highly gifted students as well as providing them a cohort of similar ability students. I do believe that all students should be tested for these programs though. That is a good step.

We have merit-based selection.

No, we don't. Merit means academic performance in the classroom and the actual admission test. Merit does not mean race, gender, or low SES, or being zoned to poor performing schools. Please do not twist the meaning of merit to mean what you think it should mean. This is social engineering for a problem (achievement gap) that MCPS has failed to solve by actually teaching poor performing URM students. MCPS has played the race card very cleverly and divided the parent community. They have made highly gifted students and high performing racial groups the villains, whereas the truth is that they have failed to bring up the standards of education and achievement of URM students for years now. We have many students who are functionally illiterate and they are graduating out of MCPS. All MCPS cares is the optics that many delusional people buy. This is a way for MCPS to be absolved of all responsibilities to not bridge the achievement gap. In fact in the last 7 years the gap has widened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No, we don't. Merit means academic performance in the classroom and the actual admission test. Merit does not mean race, gender, or low SES, or being zoned to poor performing schools. Please do not twist the meaning of merit to mean what you think it should mean. This is social engineering for a problem (achievement gap) that MCPS has failed to solve by actually teaching poor performing URM students. MCPS has played the race card very cleverly and divided the parent community. They have made highly gifted students and high performing racial groups the villains, whereas the truth is that they have failed to bring up the standards of education and achievement of URM students for years now. We have many students who are functionally illiterate and they are graduating out of MCPS. All MCPS cares is the optics that many delusional people buy. This is a way for MCPS to be absolved of all responsibilities to not bridge the achievement gap. In fact in the last 7 years the gap has widened.

If you think that MCPS is admitting undeserving kids to the magnet programs based on their race or gender, then you should report MCPS to the state or to the feds. Because that's illegal.