MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.

Given that your child hasn't even started school yet, you seem quite certain about what it's going to be like. Maybe consider keeping an open mind?

The kids are learning where to put periods and commas somehow. If it's not in the curriculum, how are they learning it?

learning where to put periods and commas is the bare minimum to ensure basic literacy. kids should be learning the full array of grammar rules.

Which grammar rules? I mean this sincerely. Which grammar rules do you think kids should learn, when should they learn them, and how should the teachers teach them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.

Given that your child hasn't even started school yet, you seem quite certain about what it's going to be like. Maybe consider keeping an open mind?

The kids are learning where to put periods and commas somehow. If it's not in the curriculum, how are they learning it?

learning where to put periods and commas is the bare minimum to ensure basic literacy. kids should be learning the full array of grammar rules.

Which grammar rules? I mean this sincerely. Which grammar rules do you think kids should learn, when should they learn them, and how should the teachers teach them?

They should learning the parts of speech (and not just nouns, adjectives, and verbs). They should be diagramming sentences, which is not only great for developing logic skills, but also for learning grammar. Too many people have no idea what a prepositional phrase is. They can barely identify an adverb.

More broadly, kids should be learning how to expand their vocabularies, in part by learning etymology. When I was in public middle school, I took Latin, which helped me expand my English vocabulary by teaching me the roots of many of our words. It also helped me learn English grammar in a much more disciplined, systemic manner.

If our children are to succeed in their adult lives, they need to develop an appreciation for precise and correct written and spoken language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.

Given that your child hasn't even started school yet, you seem quite certain about what it's going to be like. Maybe consider keeping an open mind?

The kids are learning where to put periods and commas somehow. If it's not in the curriculum, how are they learning it?

learning where to put periods and commas is the bare minimum to ensure basic literacy. kids should be learning the full array of grammar rules.

Which grammar rules? I mean this sincerely. Which grammar rules do you think kids should learn, when should they learn them, and how should the teachers teach them?

They should learning the parts of speech (and not just nouns, adjectives, and verbs). They should be diagramming sentences, which is not only great for developing logic skills, but also for learning grammar. Too many people have no idea what a prepositional phrase is. They can barely identify an adverb.

More broadly, kids should be learning how to expand their vocabularies, in part by learning etymology. When I was in public middle school, I took Latin, which helped me expand my English vocabulary by teaching me the roots of many of our words. It also helped me learn English grammar in a much more disciplined, systemic manner.

If our children are to succeed in their adult lives, they need to develop an appreciation for precise and correct written and spoken language.

Obviously the first sentence should read "... *be* learning." It's Monday morning ...

[Anonymous]

My 6th grader complains endlessly about the amount of grammar being taught in her English class. So I don't think MCPS eliminated it.

It does seem that the curriculum is not appropriate for advanced readers. She's pretty bored, and has expressed some irritation that the rubric for book reports (I can't remember what they call them -- literature studies? something like that) is too simplistic so you can't really write anything very sophisticated. It might be good for her -- to force her to focus on basics to make sure she has the right foundation before she advances. But she's definitely bored. It does appear to be the weak spot in the 6th grade curriculum -- they tell the advanced readers to take a language, which is fine, but it is not really meeting their needs on the literature/writing front. I've found that the advanced math, foreign language and the social studies curriculum are appropriately challenging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My 6th grader complains endlessly about the amount of grammar being taught in her English class. So I don't think MCPS eliminated it.

It does seem that the curriculum is not appropriate for advanced readers. She's pretty bored, and has expressed some irritation that the rubric for book reports (I can't remember what they call them -- literature studies? something like that) is too simplistic so you can't really write anything very sophisticated. It might be good for her -- to force her to focus on basics to make sure she has the right foundation before she advances. But she's definitely bored. It does appear to be the weak spot in the 6th grade curriculum -- they tell the advanced readers to take a language, which is fine, but it is not really meeting their needs on the literature/writing front. I've found that the advanced math, foreign language and the social studies curriculum are appropriately challenging.

Which languages does your daughter's MS offer? Are MS still offering Latin these days?

[Anonymous]

I'm just as happy that schools aren't spending time on diagramming sentences and Latin, actually. I would have liked for my kids to start a foreign language in sixth grade (neither was able to, for different reasons), but a language that people actually speak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm just as happy that schools aren't spending time on diagramming sentences and Latin, actually. I would have liked for my kids to start a foreign language in sixth grade (neither was able to, for different reasons), but a language that people actually speak.

Do you have any experience with Latin? It's not about learning a language people still speak; Latin provides the basis for all romance (and some Germanic) languages. It's the basis of our etymological structure. Beyond that, learning Latin provides a vehicle for kids to learn about ancient Rome, which expands their understanding of the basis of European civilization.

It's a great middle school language that provides an excellent basis for learning actively spoken languages in high school. I'm so glad I learned Latin in middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm just as happy that schools aren't spending time on diagramming sentences and Latin, actually. I would have liked for my kids to start a foreign language in sixth grade (neither was able to, for different reasons), but a language that people actually speak.

Do you have any experience with Latin? It's not about learning a language people still speak; Latin provides the basis for all romance (and some Germanic) languages. It's the basis of our etymological structure. Beyond that, learning Latin provides a vehicle for kids to learn about ancient Rome, which expands their understanding of the basis of European civilization.

It's a great middle school language that provides an excellent basis for learning actively spoken languages in high school. I'm so glad I learned Latin in middle school.

Good for you. Other people have other ideas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm just as happy that schools aren't spending time on diagramming sentences and Latin, actually. I would have liked for my kids to start a foreign language in sixth grade (neither was able to, for different reasons), but a language that people actually speak.

Do you have any experience with Latin? It's not about learning a language people still speak; Latin provides the basis for all romance (and some Germanic) languages. It's the basis of our etymological structure. Beyond that, learning Latin provides a vehicle for kids to learn about ancient Rome, which expands their understanding of the basis of European civilization.

It's a great middle school language that provides an excellent basis for learning actively spoken languages in high school. I'm so glad I learned Latin in middle school.

Good for you. Other people have other ideas.

Sure, but they shouldn't be denigrating people who value that sort of instruction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC was shocked when he started MS English class. The books assigned were the same books they read in 4th and 5th gtader. Only two book reports were assigned during the entire year. My impression for MS was MCPS has minimun expectation for its students.

Here are the books: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzpjEw_DrUViMzRiaVlZOG9mSXM/view

It seems quite appropriate to me for sixth grade.

We come from the CES program, and I have to tell you my kid read this book in 4th grade. So for those who came from the former HGC, I sure hope MCPS has something in place for these kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC was shocked when he started MS English class. The books assigned were the same books they read in 4th and 5th gtader. Only two book reports were assigned during the entire year. My impression for MS was MCPS has minimun expectation for its students.

Here are the books: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzpjEw_DrUViMzRiaVlZOG9mSXM/view

It seems quite appropriate to me for sixth grade.

We come from the CES program, and I have to tell you my kid read this book in 4th grade. So for those who came from the former HGC, I sure hope MCPS has something in place for these kids.

Judging by the MS magnet program changes, probably not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You all do know that in the rest of the world (outside the DC-area bubble) people bemoan the common core standards because they are too hard, right?

In the DC area. On the gazillion threads about the Common Core standards on DCUM, everyone agreed that the Common Core standards were bad because they were (1) too hard (2) too easy (3) standards.

Yes, this exactly. I've heard from parents that math is too easy, too hard, etc. Also that writing expectations are too unrealistic for the age group. Now we're hearing that writing is too easy. I have friends from both W and non-W feeder schools and regardless of where they are zoned for, the opinions are all over the board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. My oldest child was pre 2.0. My second was a 2.0 Guinea pig. Third is full 2.0.

Three relatives and several close friends are mcps teachers with decades under their belts.

Plus, I've heard it straight from the mouths of my kids' teachers. When commenting on the lack of grammar and writing instruction,teachers immediately responded by saying that the curriculum does not include it. They try to supplement. Whatever.

Curriculum is based on the common core standards. The standards do include grammar, see here for first grade. I find it surprising when a teacher says that the curriculum does not include grammar.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks for the comments. A few replies:

I can't name the school without further risk of "outing" DC.

Here are the books: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzpjEw_DrUViMzRiaVlZOG9mSXM/view
It seems quite appropriate to me for sixth grade.

Maybe I should have asked the question of how closely does your child's teacher follow this list. At this point in the year, DC's class has "read" only one of the books listed for each unit and that was done by having the entire class listen to audio book version. There have been zero books assigned for actual reading, all reading (as opposed to listening) assignments are 5 pages or less of photo copies. If other classes actually have assigned reading for some of these books then that is a good example of lower expectations for DC's class.

Fill in the blank is not necessarily simple, but it’s guided.

Just as an example, the standards specify students should use a variety of transition words. On DC's organizers, all the transition wording is supplied. DC describes it as teacher now says what to do but previous teachers taught us how to do things.

DH doesn't follow these debates as closely as I do, and thinks DD will be fine next year ... I keep telling him otherwise. i

A bit of a tangent but I have a similar challenge. It's only when I dive into details that I see this stuff. Spouse has more faith that it will all work out and school knows best. The school does a good job of saying they do all the right things.

these comments only provide more evidence to back up what I've read in MCPS's own curriculum materials and heard in person from parents with kids in the later ES and MS grades.

DC's middle school is in a different feeder pattern than elementary school classmates (both W pyramids). Some of DC's former classmates are amazing writers. DC did not have this problem of low expectations/simplified assignments in elementary. I think experiences vary widely and there are plenty of things that are going really well for DC at school. DC's middle school doesn't have any technology electives but does have a great band/orchestra program. None of the private schools we looked at could approach the public school band/orchestra offerings.

DC's English class does include learning parts of speech and I think they will do some sentence diagramming. I thought it was an example of low expectations that they needed to spend so much time learning parts of speech (which DC already knew) but maybe the rest of the class needed it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for the comments. A few replies:

I can't name the school without further risk of "outing" DC.

Here are the books: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzpjEw_DrUViMzRiaVlZOG9mSXM/view
It seems quite appropriate to me for sixth grade.

Maybe I should have asked the question of how closely does your child's teacher follow this list. At this point in the year, DC's class has "read" only one of the books listed for each unit and that was done by having the entire class listen to audio book version. There have been zero books assigned for actual reading, all reading (as opposed to listening) assignments are 5 pages or less of photo copies. If other classes actually have assigned reading for some of these books then that is a good example of lower expectations for DC's class.

Fill in the blank is not necessarily simple, but it’s guided.

Just as an example, the standards specify students should use a variety of transition words. On DC's organizers, all the transition wording is supplied. DC describes it as teacher now says what to do but previous teachers taught us how to do things.

DH doesn't follow these debates as closely as I do, and thinks DD will be fine next year ... I keep telling him otherwise. i

A bit of a tangent but I have a similar challenge. It's only when I dive into details that I see this stuff. Spouse has more faith that it will all work out and school knows best. The school does a good job of saying they do all the right things.

these comments only provide more evidence to back up what I've read in MCPS's own curriculum materials and heard in person from parents with kids in the later ES and MS grades.

DC's middle school is in a different feeder pattern than elementary school classmates (both W pyramids). Some of DC's former classmates are amazing writers. DC did not have this problem of low expectations/simplified assignments in elementary. I think experiences vary widely and there are plenty of things that are going really well for DC at school. DC's middle school doesn't have any technology electives but does have a great band/orchestra program. None of the private schools we looked at could approach the public school band/orchestra offerings.

DC's English class does include learning parts of speech and I think they will do some sentence diagramming. I thought it was an example of low expectations that they needed to spend so much time learning parts of speech (which DC already knew) but maybe the rest of the class needed it.

PP who made that comment here. I think part of the reason he has more faith than I do is because public schools served him well, whereas they failed me. I started out in a magnet program in an urban school, and ended up in a private school because budget cuts decimated the program (to the point where they couldn't even fix broken toilets). Now, I doubt MCPS' budget issues will reach that point (this was in a city struggling with adapting to a post-manufacturing world -- think Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc.), but it instilled in me a skepticism about public schools.