Student suspended for not standing at pledge of allegiance

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kid is within his constituional rights, but it's dad that the liberal educational system have created an environment in which students don't want to pledge allegiance to their country. It's the whole "diss America" trend that's going around.

Maybe not so much the liberal education system as the fact that police are shooting kids without facing any consequences. Just sayin'.

And, just maybe, it's a response to all these people who claim to love America, love the flag, love the anthem, love the Constitution, etc. but who seem to have such a poor grasp of what those things actually mean.

Those who blindly stand up for the flag and and the anthem will say, "The Muslims/Russians/villain du jour HATE our FREEDOM" while simultaneously:

- applauding (and electing) religious zealots like Roy Moore (and Mike Pence) who treat religion in America the way AT&T used to sell phones ("You can have any color as long as it's black, and you can be any religion you want, as long as it's the right kind of Christian"),

- endorsing policies that are explicitly designed to be racist (like the Republican supported voter ID laws, particularly the ones in Texas and NC),

- endorsing policies that are explicitly sexist ("You want our company to provide you with health insurance that covers birth control? You SLUT! Don't you know God hates sinners like you? God wants us to be fruitful and multiply - that's why our insurance covers my Viagra!")

- endorsing policies that are explicitly discriminatory towards homosexuals and those who live alternative lifestyles ("Gay marriage threatens the foundations of our society!" "Gay marriage is a threat to my marriage!" "The Bible says we should hate gays!")

at the same time the Internet is letting people get information about how things are done in other countries as it relates to education, the environment, gun control, health care, social safety nets, etc., and they look at the US and say, "Hmm...Perhaps we may not be as exceptional as these people keep claiming."

Maybe you shouldn't bemoan the "diss America" trend, but, instead, ask why people would be "dissing America." Their reasons for doing so might enlighten you.

Wow. You sure seemed to take out all your hatred for conservatives on me, for some reason. Just about everything you said doesn't align with my beliefs at all and had nothing to do with my vote. That's all.

Not directed at you, in particular, but if you’re saying that everything in the US is hunky dory and the only reason people would be making a statement by not standing for the Pledge or the anthem is because of the “lefty liberal educational system that makes it trendy to diss America,” well, then at best you’re wearing blinders.

If you’re supporting the Republican Party for other reasons, well, just like your tax dollars, your vote has gone to support things you disagree with. How much of that are you going to stand for before you change your vote, because all those things I listed are what the government elected by Republicans is doing.

Object to Trump? Guess what, your Republican Representatives and Senators are willing to put up with pretty much anything he does for a chance to enact their agenda while he’s in office and they have a majority.

Disagree with Roy Moore? Guess what, he’s the Repuican nominee for Senate in Alabama. While you may not live there, your Republican President, the nominal head of the Republican Party, is going to campaign for him, and so will other members of the Republican leadership if it looks like things are close. Maybe one of your elected Reps or Senators.

Object to racist and discriminatory voter ID laws? Those are being pushed by Republicans all over the place. Odds are your Reps, Senators and maybe even state legislators have been pushing them, as well.

Pro birth control? Pro gay rights? What are you doing voting Republican?

Whether you agree with those things or not, your votes for Republicans help make them happen.

Just as a follow-up to my own post. You said I’d vented my hatred of conservatives at you. I don’t hate conservatives, in general. The liberal and conservative philosophies in the American system create a valuable tension. What I despise is those who pervert our system of government and who are the embodiment of the saying “When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the flag and waving a cross.”

I was very careful to distinguish between conservatives, in general, and what the Republican Party is doing, in particular.

The fracas about the pledge and the anthem is Republican Party resorting to jingoistic tactics while they are implementing an agenda that is based, in many ways, of a particular interpretation of Christianity. Both of those things infringe the 1st Amendment, but that doesn’t seem to bother them or those who vote for them.

The PP here. You sound a bit more reasonable now, so thanks.

There are an entire group of moderates who were left with two terrible options, and our decision was driven by issues. (I dislike Trump on a personal level.) Some of the issues we agreed with fell on the D side, like pro-choice and gay marriage (speaking for myself), but others, which fell on the R side, took precedent, such as stricter immigration control (particularly illegal immigration), a reduction in corporate tax rates to a globally competitive level (to reverse the trend of off-shoring comoanies), and a few others.

Nothing is black or white. Mature adults weigh their options, fully realizing there is no perfect choice (and in this election, that's an understatement), decide for themselves what is best for the country, and vote accordingly. Do I wish Trump would stop the tweeting nonsense? Of course. Do I wish he came out stronger, the first time, against the KKK? Yes. (Do I believe his supports the KKK? Of course not.) Am I happy about the immigration proposal he is sending (or has sent) to Congress? Absolutely. Am I glad he is trying for a 20% corporate tax rate? You bet. Do I like that he's lowering taxes in the ultra-wealthy? No, I do not.

Point is, life and its related decisions are complex, and we all have to figure our priorities.

P.S. I'm not even Christian, so your last point certainly doesn't apply to me, or many Trump voters, but I will acknowledge that there is a far-right fringe for whom that rings true.

[Anonymous]

If you chose to vote for Trump, knowing what we all knew about him before the election, then you are responsible for the disasters he causes. No one could possibly think he was the better choice for our country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you chose to vote for Trump, knowing what we all knew about him before the election, then you are responsible for the disasters he causes. No one could possibly think he was the better choice for our country.

Well, 60 million voters thought he was the better choice, so there's that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The kid is within his constituional rights, but it's dad that the liberal educational system have created an environment in which students don't want to pledge allegiance to their country. It's the whole "diss America" trend that's going around.

I dunno, I think "Make America Great Again" is a diss on America. It's saying we aren't great right now, aren't living up to our ideals. So what's the difference?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you chose to vote for Trump, knowing what we all knew about him before the election, then you are responsible for the disasters he causes. No one could possibly think he was the better choice for our country.

Well, 60 million voters thought he was the better choice, so there's that.

And what % of those believe in creationism? Not really the brightest bunch...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kid is within his constituional rights, but it's dad that the liberal educational system have created an environment in which students don't want to pledge allegiance to their country. It's the whole "diss America" trend that's going around.

I dunno, I think "Make America Great Again" is a diss on America. It's saying we aren't great right now, aren't living up to our ideals. So what's the difference?

Difference is we're not a authoritarian state and apparently that's what greatness is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kid is within his constituional rights, but it's dad that the liberal educational system have created an environment in which students don't want to pledge allegiance to their country. It's the whole "diss America" trend that's going around.

I dunno, I think "Make America Great Again" is a diss on America. It's saying we aren't great right now, aren't living up to our ideals. So what's the difference?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be fair, it's not their favorite amendment.

They on is then all, but only as applied to white Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you chose to vote for Trump, knowing what we all knew about him before the election, then you are responsible for the disasters he causes. No one could possibly think he was the better choice for our country.

Well, 60 million voters thought he was the better choice, so there's that.

Indeed they did, and they are responsible for the disasters he causes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kid is within his constituional rights, but it's dad that the liberal educational system have created an environment in which students don't want to pledge allegiance to their country. It's the whole "diss America" trend that's going around.

I dunno, I think "Make America Great Again" is a diss on America. It's saying we aren't great right now, aren't living up to our ideals. So what's the difference?

Nailed it.

[Anonymous]

As a conservative and a former teacher, I believe this is wrong. Student should not have been suspended. A student does not need to stand or say the pledge, but a student cannot prevent or disrupt others from doing so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Schools are not a democracy. They have dress codes, zero tolerance for somethings and can decide that students stand for reciting of pledge of allegiance as well as standing for national anthem. Principals run the school not the students.

In Texas, this idiot lawyer will lose.

Wow, how quickly conservatives forget about the First Amendment.

What about all the liberal universities imposing speech codes on campus and banning speakin appearances when they don't like someone's politics?

Everyone knows it's liberals who hate the 1st Amendment.

TAKE CIVICS!!!!!! Please.

The 1st Amendment applies to government actors, not private entities, like private colleges or private groups at public colleges. And it is not absolute. If there is imminent danger of physical harm, the university can prevent things like riots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you chose to vote for Trump, knowing what we all knew about him before the election, then you are responsible for the disasters he causes. No one could possibly think he was the better choice for our country.

Well, 60 million voters thought he was the better choice, so there's that.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a conservative and a former teacher, I believe this is wrong. Student should not have been suspended. A student does not need to stand or say the pledge, but a student cannot prevent or disrupt others from doing so.

I am also a conservative and former teacher... what is the mechanism for not preventing or disrupting? Is that not protected speech as well (for example, putting fingers in ears and singing la la la la loudly?). I am not being snarky--truly curious how I would manage to (LEGALLY) create a respectful zone for those who participate or abstain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a conservative and a former teacher, I believe this is wrong. Student should not have been suspended. A student does not need to stand or say the pledge, but a student cannot prevent or disrupt others from doing so.

I am also a conservative and former teacher... what is the mechanism for not preventing or disrupting? Is that not protected speech as well (for example, putting fingers in ears and singing la la la la loudly?). I am not being snarky--truly curious how I would manage to (LEGALLY) create a respectful zone for those who participate or abstain.

That's a legitimate question. The court says you can't require participation in the pledge (and, by implication, the national anthem). The court does not say that any disruption equals free speech.

Doing what the NFL players have been doing, for example, silently taking a knee, does not create a disruption that impairs anyone else's participation in singing the anthem.

A student sitting quietly while the others stand to say the pledge is not being disruptive.

If a student engages in activity that would be disruptive regardless of what the class was doing (e.g., if the class was hearing a presentation, watching a movie, doing math problems, etc.) then, as long as the punishment for the disruption during the pledge is the same as the punishment for disrupting any other class activity, you're on pretty solid ground.