Gifted and talented test prep

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What a joke. If the test scores can be improved through studying or taking practice tests, then *by definition* the test is not one that measures innate ability.

Moreover, many very smart kids don't do well on timed/multiple choice tests, no matter how smart they are. Smarter even than the kids who ace the test first try. The idea that the CoGAT measures "true giftedness" is naive and uninformed.

I assume all of you parents with your knickers in a knot about taking practice tests for the CoGAT will not be buying review books for the SAT or sending your kids to prep classes when the time comes. Standardized tests in many ways are best at measuring one variable: the student's ability to take standardized tests.

Actually, part of what makes these tests for innate intelligence work is that they try to gauge how well kids can figure out novel/unknown problems. Even actual IQ tests aren't valid if the same one is within a year of each other. So "prepping" can definitely change the outcome in ways that doesn't diminish the validity of the tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Studying is for cheaters!

When it comes to tests for innate ability, yup.

Nothing more than an attempt to manipulate results to make ordinary children appear to be "gifted".

Hilarious. If that's really true then you wouldn't be threatened by kids who study. It's all 'innate'? Then how would studying help?

Who's threatened? Kid #1 tested off the charts, kid #2 too young for it to be an issue.

I just don't like strivers/grifters who try to game the system.

You'll note that I said "attempt" to manipulate the results, but certainly test design is not a perfect science.

Even tests designed to test innate traits can be gamed by those sufficiently desperate and determined.

So if you're not threatened, then you shouldn't even waste your time thinking about this. Who cares?

I do. I don't like grifters/cheaters impacting my community.

Do you only care about things that immediately impact you?

There's a word for that...

Does schooling affect the kid's innate capability? If it does, is it cheating?

It's apparent that you lack the innate ability to grasp the issue here. Best of luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a joke. If the test scores can be improved through studying or taking practice tests, then *by definition* the test is not one that measures innate ability.

Moreover, many very smart kids don't do well on timed/multiple choice tests, no matter how smart they are. Smarter even than the kids who ace the test first try. The idea that the CoGAT measures "true giftedness" is naive and uninformed.

I assume all of you parents with your knickers in a knot about taking practice tests for the CoGAT will not be buying review books for the SAT or sending your kids to prep classes when the time comes. Standardized tests in many ways are best at measuring one variable: the student's ability to take standardized tests.

Actually, part of what makes these tests for innate intelligence work is that they try to gauge how well kids can figure out novel/unknown problems. Even actual IQ tests aren't valid if the same one is within a year of each other. So "prepping" can definitely change the outcome in ways that doesn't diminish the validity of the tests.

+1. Precisely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want to know if test prep is cheating, ask your school. Ask them what test they are using so your child can prepare. See what their response is to you. That should tell you what you need to know. The schools do not publicize the contents of the tests because the schools do not want the results to be influenced by the parents.

Such a joke. Are you talking about MCPS? MCPS doesn't tell parents anything ever. No big surprise. Do you try to get your kids MAP scores? It's like pulling teeth. Report cards? Minimal amount of info given.

You are suggesting MCPS just failed to tell you the name of the test because they are incompetent. I am saying that MCPS does not tell you the name of the test because you are not supposed to know. It is literally just like buying an old test from a fraternity brother at college. It is cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want to know if test prep is cheating, ask your school. Ask them what test they are using so your child can prepare. See what their response is to you. That should tell you what you need to know. The schools do not publicize the contents of the tests because the schools do not want the results to be influenced by the parents.

Such a joke. Are you talking about MCPS? MCPS doesn't tell parents anything ever. No big surprise. Do you try to get your kids MAP scores? It's like pulling teeth. Report cards? Minimal amount of info given.

You are suggesting MCPS just failed to tell you the name of the test because they are incompetent. I am saying that MCPS does not tell you the name of the test because you are not supposed to know. It is literally just like buying an old test from a fraternity brother at college. It is cheating.

What a f'king idiot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you want to know if test prep is cheating, ask your school. Ask them what test they are using so your child can prepare. See what their response is to you. That should tell you what you need to know. The schools do not publicize the contents of the tests because the schools do not want the results to be influenced by the parents.

Please enlighten me (not trying to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious). If the contents of MCPS HGC tests are such a secret, why do top private schools require their applicants to take well-publicized intelligence tests and send them the results? Wouldn't it be 'fair' to have every Sidwell applicant take an unknown highly classified test proctored by the teachers in the same classroom on the same day rather than letting Larlo know in advance he should study for and take the WISC-V to get in?

Using this logic, why is it such a secret that HGC applicants would be required to take Cogat and be recommended by their second-grade teacher?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Please enlighten me (not trying to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious). If the contents of MCPS HGC tests are such a secret, why do top private schools require their applicants to take well-publicized intelligence tests and send them the results? Wouldn't it be 'fair' to have every Sidwell applicant take an unknown highly classified test proctored by the teachers in the same classroom on the same day rather than letting Larlo know in advance he should study for and take the WISC-V to get in?

Using this logic, why is it such a secret that HGC applicants would be required to take Cogat and be recommended by their second-grade teacher?

It isn't a secret. But yes, of course it would be more fair to have every Sidwell applicant take an unknown test at the same time. Why don't they do it? Ask them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wouldn't prepping always make you wonder...... is your child actually gifted?

It makes me wonder why more people don't prep! The workbooks are cheap and easy. Why would you not do it??

Because there are a lot of better things your third-grade child can do with the time than questionably-effective test prep to get into a two-year program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wouldn't prepping always make you wonder...... is your child actually gifted?

It makes me wonder why more people don't prep! The workbooks are cheap and easy. Why would you not do it??

Because there are a lot of better things your third-grade child can do with the time than questionably-effective test prep to get into a two-year program.

Absolutely positively DO PREPARE! Everybody prepares, and especially those who
will tell you not to prepare just so they can thin the herd.
First of all no test is perfect in judging giftedness. It tests certain abilities and above all ability to taking tests

Therefore if you won't teach a kid to take test as in: answering questions at a very fast pace
under time pressure and teaching them to pace themselves and time manage watching clock
then you are setting your kid for failure.

Just as those who stated above, check the tests that are going to be administered and find
online resources to let your kid to practice.
Easy way is to just go to youtube and put the test name and grade level and you will
find plenty practice tests that will scare you but they will actually be manageable once
you and your kid get a hand of them.

Believe me, they are not as easy as walk in the park and even adults have to think a bit
to find an answer as they are pretty tricky. Once you will see the questions you will
know what I meant. You will understand why it is so important for your child
to practice them as much as possible.

The actual tests are nothing of a kind of learning that the kids do at school so
they are difficult for children regardless of the giftedness level.
Giftedness and Talents are not limited to test taking. Many kids who
are awesomely gifted do not do that great with some of those tests
just because Giftedness is so much more than those tests.

You can find also some cheap and good tests on testingmom website
for those specific tests. they are peanuts comparing to some nonesnsial
testing sites people mentioned here. This site charages like ten bucks or so
for three months and not hundreds of dollars and is just as great.
Do you really need someone to do this work for you if you can
sit with your kid and analyze questions together so you can learn
the process and then a kid can take from there and prepare themselves.

Kids love those tests once they get a hang of them as they are
like puzzles. That alone is indication of giftedness, curiosity for learning
and inquisitiveness and they will need loads of it if they get into Gifted
Center as if they don't have that they won't success everyday studies
that are very demanding.

Getting kids prepared for testing is not cheating. Those kids who get in
do not get in on tests alone but also based on teachers recommendations
and parents evaluations.

Gifted child is not the same a kid who just can study and study to
finally get material and good grade. That is not giftedness, that is hard work.
They do not look for this kind of kids, those kids do well in normal
schools being best students. Gifted Center is for exceptional minds
who learn fast, are curious, love to study beyond homework.
Those kids do not just do homework, they just can't stop to expand
the homework by research and explorations.

If a kid gets to a Gifted Center who does not have those abilities,
they just do not manage and drop out. So preparing for the test
at all cost will end right there and will hurt a kid so keep that in mind.
However even most brilliant kid will benefit from learning to do the test
itself as in preparing by doing few sample tests as provide on sample
websites and doing them in a timely manner there is no question about it.

About Catholic school - totally not a problem.
Of course you can just call CGES and ask
for Gifted Education coordinator and ask but as far as I know,
the program is available for EVERYBODY, regardless of type of schooling
be it private, catholic or even homeschooling.

If you want to prepare kid to be successful at Gfited Program,
then do not only focus on the test but on teaching them and exposing
to all kinds of learning, and subjects, history, art, mathematics,
science. Have them research on their own, teach them to love
to read and write and expand their minds.

Kids at Gifted Center read few books per week not because
they have to but that too, but because they love to. The read
a book Harry Potter type in two sittings..
And writing, they write so much there so if you are preparing
a child to succeed there they must love to write few pages
in one sitting with passion. Otherwise it will be very difficult
on a child to succeed even if they pass the test with flying colors.

A child who will be pushed somehow into Gifted Center
but won't love to read, write, create and research they will
be miserable plenty, stressed and very very lonely.
Kids who do not have imagination and creativity stand
no chance with their peers who area all like that.
Again, hard work is not enough. Creativity and self drive
is a key. That is what Gifted Programs are looking for.

[Anonymous]

pp here..

this is a good start to give you an idea what you are up to:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Gifted+and+talented+tests+for+3rd+grade

[Anonymous]

It is not true that everybody has their kids prep, and it is especially not true for the tests in third grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is not true that everybody has their kids prep, and it is especially not true for the tests in third grade.

I didn't have my kid prep for the HGC test. The commute to TPMS was a bear and she wasn't super enthused about going so we didn't apply for MS. If she had applied we definitely would have prepped for MS; it seemed to be much less an IQ test and much more a "what have you learned" test. They even gave out a sample exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wouldn't prepping always make you wonder...... is your child actually gifted?

It makes me wonder why more people don't prep! The workbooks are cheap and easy. Why would you not do it??

Because there are a lot of better things your third-grade child can do with the time than questionably-effective test prep to get into a two-year program.

Absolutely positively DO PREPARE! Everybody prepares, and especially those who
will tell you not to prepare just so they can thin the herd.
First of all no test is perfect in judging giftedness. It tests certain abilities and above all ability to taking tests

Therefore if you won't teach a kid to take test as in: answering questions at a very fast pace
under time pressure and teaching them to pace themselves and time manage watching clock
then you are setting your kid for failure.

Just as those who stated above, check the tests that are going to be administered and find
online resources to let your kid to practice.
Easy way is to just go to youtube and put the test name and grade level and you will
find plenty practice tests that will scare you but they will actually be manageable once
you and your kid get a hand of them.

Believe me, they are not as easy as walk in the park and even adults have to think a bit
to find an answer as they are pretty tricky. Once you will see the questions you will
know what I meant. You will understand why it is so important for your child
to practice them as much as possible.

The actual tests are nothing of a kind of learning that the kids do at school so
they are difficult for children regardless of the giftedness level.
Giftedness and Talents are not limited to test taking. Many kids who
are awesomely gifted do not do that great with some of those tests
just because Giftedness is so much more than those tests.

You can find also some cheap and good tests on testingmom website
for those specific tests. they are peanuts comparing to some nonesnsial
testing sites people mentioned here. This site charages like ten bucks or so
for three months and not hundreds of dollars and is just as great.
Do you really need someone to do this work for you if you can
sit with your kid and analyze questions together so you can learn
the process and then a kid can take from there and prepare themselves.

Kids love those tests once they get a hang of them as they are
like puzzles. That alone is indication of giftedness, curiosity for learning
and inquisitiveness and they will need loads of it if they get into Gifted
Center as if they don't have that they won't success everyday studies
that are very demanding.

Getting kids prepared for testing is not cheating. Those kids who get in
do not get in on tests alone but also based on teachers recommendations
and parents evaluations.

Gifted child is not the same a kid who just can study and study to
finally get material and good grade. That is not giftedness, that is hard work.
They do not look for this kind of kids, those kids do well in normal
schools being best students. Gifted Center is for exceptional minds
who learn fast, are curious, love to study beyond homework.
Those kids do not just do homework, they just can't stop to expand
the homework by research and explorations.

If a kid gets to a Gifted Center who does not have those abilities,
they just do not manage and drop out. So preparing for the test
at all cost will end right there and will hurt a kid so keep that in mind.
However even most brilliant kid will benefit from learning to do the test
itself as in preparing by doing few sample tests as provide on sample
websites and doing them in a timely manner there is no question about it.

About Catholic school - totally not a problem.
Of course you can just call CGES and ask
for Gifted Education coordinator and ask but as far as I know,
the program is available for EVERYBODY, regardless of type of schooling
be it private, catholic or even homeschooling.

If you want to prepare kid to be successful at Gfited Program,
then do not only focus on the test but on teaching them and exposing
to all kinds of learning, and subjects, history, art, mathematics,
science. Have them research on their own, teach them to love
to read and write and expand their minds.

Kids at Gifted Center read few books per week not because
they have to but that too, but because they love to. The read
a book Harry Potter type in two sittings..
And writing, they write so much there so if you are preparing
a child to succeed there they must love to write few pages
in one sitting with passion. Otherwise it will be very difficult
on a child to succeed even if they pass the test with flying colors.

A child who will be pushed somehow into Gifted Center
but won't love to read, write, create and research they will
be miserable plenty, stressed and very very lonely.
Kids who do not have imagination and creativity stand
no chance with their peers who area all like that.
Again, hard work is not enough. Creativity and self drive
is a key. That is what Gifted Programs are looking for.

100% not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not true that everybody has their kids prep, and it is especially not true for the tests in third grade.

I didn't have my kid prep for the HGC test. The commute to TPMS was a bear and she wasn't super enthused about going so we didn't apply for MS. If she had applied we definitely would have prepped for MS; it seemed to be much less an IQ test and much more a "what have you learned" test. They even gave out a sample exam.

Totally agreed but except the fact that some part of the test is related to IQ ! For middle school magnet test, SCAT (math) and Reading are much related to "what have you learned" but Advanced Raven test is supposed to be nothing to do "what have you learned"

Prep is nothing more than to managing time unless the test is so poorly designed and the problem set is so small that kids will see the same problem during the test as they saw during the prep.

Calling prep cheat is like calling someone looking for bargains a thief !

[Anonymous]

If my kids needs to study to get into gifted program(which I don't believe in btw) then my kids do not belong int the gifted program. Who makes their second grader study for gifted exam?? Bunch of crazy parents, that's who. This makes my thread about who is crazier academic or sports parents so justified!