Europe is much more inclusive and liberal with muslims and immigrants why are they targeted?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'd say the violent anti-LGBT government of Uganda is an example of Christian (even US-missionary sponsored) hatred and repression. It's been all over the news in the past few years. Here's an article written by a Christian leader disavowing it. But rest assured there are plenty of Conservative groups in the US that do and have promoted this culture and legislation.

It's shameful.

But that's just an example. Not saying it's at all the same thing as DAESH. But it has something in common: Religion as the conduit for hatred rather than good.

(Another thing: The US cannot overlook its own military and economic and diplomatic policies when head-scratching about why ISIS/DAESH keeps getting bigger and bigger. It is accidental, but not considering that is pure ignorance.)

Oops, here's the article--just the first one I found in a quickie web search.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/27/homophobia-christian-africa_n_4675618.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hello, no. Europe is a way, way crappier place to be as an immigrant than the US. I've lived in both and can attest that in terms of opportunity, treatment, rights, etc. the US is way, way better.

Yes, there's a safety net and school is free. But there is a lack of access that non-native citizens face in Europe that doesn't exist in the US. Employers can discriminate on the basis of national origin in Europe. They can't do that here. Housing discrimination? Fine in Europe. Access to education -- terrible in both places, but at least in the US there's a glimmer of a shot of educating your kids because of civil rights laws requiring language access. Europe, just generally, in my view is a crappy place as a immigrant or refugee. And i say this as a Muslim woman.

The US is tougher in the sense that you have work hard to make a basic standard of living. You get the bare essentials in Europe. But in the US you can make much, much more of your life in terms of starting a business (like my family did) or getting an education (like I did). We are upper middle class and fairly successful. If we had stayed in France, I can guarantee our lives would have been much worse. That's why I love this country so much I literally work at the VA as a nurse practitioner. I love this country and helping its soldiers heal is the least I can do to express my gratitude.

You omitted a few more factors that explain the difference.

1. The U.S. - unlike European countries - does not have a single, consistent ethnic culture, around which the national identity is built. You do not have to change any of your looks, religion, and habits to become American. Yet you can never become French, no matter how much you try. It is understandable that a French, Italian, German, Dutch person may feel uneasy with the rapidly changing character of their country. The U.S. never had that to lose, so they don't get it. When a country acquires a chunk of population that isn't privy to its ethnic culture and isn't in much of rush to share it, people feel uneasy.

2. The U.S. never opened its borders to Muslim immigration by right (unlike, say, Germany with Turks or France with the Maghrebis). Consequently, the U.S. never had to deal with thousands of poor, angry Muslims. The American Muslim immigration has always been tiny, mostly employer- and family-based, well educated, and affluent. They do not share the struggles of the European Muslims because they come from a different segment of society.

3. Because of #2, the U.S. never had Muslims living compactly in single-ethnicity communities. With the exception of Michigan and Minnesota, American Muslims are spread amongst other Americans and have no particular urge to live close to each other. This makes them less vulnerable to propaganda, and because they are mostly affluent, there is no groundswell of anger into which one can tap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do conservatives post straw man questions like this?

Guess the ones posting here like to read all the explanations and rationalizations!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hello, no. Europe is a way, way crappier place to be as an immigrant than the US. I've lived in both and can attest that in terms of opportunity, treatment, rights, etc. the US is way, way better.

Yes, there's a safety net and school is free. But there is a lack of access that non-native citizens face in Europe that doesn't exist in the US. Employers can discriminate on the basis of national origin in Europe. They can't do that here. Housing discrimination? Fine in Europe. Access to education -- terrible in both places, but at least in the US there's a glimmer of a shot of educating your kids because of civil rights laws requiring language access. Europe, just generally, in my view is a crappy place as a immigrant or refugee. And i say this as a Muslim woman.

The US is tougher in the sense that you have work hard to make a basic standard of living. You get the bare essentials in Europe. But in the US you can make much, much more of your life in terms of starting a business (like my family did) or getting an education (like I did). We are upper middle class and fairly successful. If we had stayed in France, I can guarantee our lives would have been much worse. That's why I love this country so much I literally work at the VA as a nurse practitioner. I love this country and helping its soldiers heal is the least I can do to express my gratitude.

You omitted a few more factors that explain the difference.

1. The U.S. - unlike European countries - does not have a single, consistent ethnic culture, around which the national identity is built. You do not have to change any of your looks, religion, and habits to become American. Yet you can never become French, no matter how much you try. It is understandable that a French, Italian, German, Dutch person may feel uneasy with the rapidly changing character of their country. The U.S. never had that to lose, so they don't get it. When a country acquires a chunk of population that isn't privy to its ethnic culture and isn't in much of rush to share it, people feel uneasy.

2. The U.S. never opened its borders to Muslim immigration by right (unlike, say, Germany with Turks or France with the Maghrebis). Consequently, the U.S. never had to deal with thousands of poor, angry Muslims. The American Muslim immigration has always been tiny, mostly employer- and family-based, well educated, and affluent. They do not share the struggles of the European Muslims because they come from a different segment of society.

3. Because of #2, the U.S. never had Muslims living compactly in single-ethnicity communities. With the exception of Michigan and Minnesota, American Muslims are spread amongst other Americans and have no particular urge to live close to each other. This makes them less vulnerable to propaganda, and because they are mostly affluent, there is no groundswell of anger into which one can tap.

+100. The US has no distinctly unifying culture, but, just as a general principle, I would like to see how all of the limousine liberals who are judging Europeans for not wanting their countries to be overrun with migrants would react if they were personally required to change their way of life to accommodate newcomers. Not very well, I would imagine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd say the violent anti-LGBT government of Uganda is an example of Christian (even US-missionary sponsored) hatred and repression. It's been all over the news in the past few years. Here's an article written by a Christian leader disavowing it. But rest assured there are plenty of Conservative groups in the US that do and have promoted this culture and legislation.

It's shameful.

But that's just an example. Not saying it's at all the same thing as DAESH. But it has something in common: Religion as the conduit for hatred rather than good.

(Another thing: The US cannot overlook its own military and economic and diplomatic policies when head-scratching about why ISIS/DAESH keeps getting bigger and bigger. It is accidental, but not considering that is pure ignorance.)

Oops, here's the article--just the first one I found in a quickie web search.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/27/homophobia-christian-africa_n_4675618.html

"Gay Clark Jennings" Religion News Service, seriously?

How many bombings?

This dude....

http://houseofdeputies.org/about-the-president.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First of f all, they are closer to the Middle East and are a better target of opportunity.

Secondly, your assumptions are wrong.


They have more immigrants, but they are less successful at integrating them. In the U.S., we expect that the children of Muslim immigrants will be Americans AND Muslim with no contradiction. I had an argument with a German guy about how immigrants to Germany could never really be German and neither could their children. And Germany is probably better at integrating them than other countries.

A lot of Muslim immigrants to Europe are poor. A lot of Muslim immigrants to the U.S. are professionals and business owners. Professionals don't have time for that.

This pp nailed it. This is something that many people don't realize about the United States. While we still have racism here, our emphasis is on assimilation. We expect immigrants to be part of our society and to live wherever they want. In many European nations, immigrants are expected to remain outside of the mainstream culture, and remain geographically and economically isolated and impoverished in poor suburbs. This breeds anger and alienation. This is one of the reasons we've had fewer problems with terrorism.

That's why it's laughable that Ted Cruz and Donald Trump want patrols in Muslim neighborhoods. Yes, there are some in the United States but most Muslims do not live ghettoized in Muslim neighborhoods. Are they going to send cops around to knock on the doors of the individual Muslim family living down the block?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do they want to assimilate? It seems to me that they do not.

Oh FFS, do you even know any Muslims? The ones I know are happy to be here and are hard-working productive citizens. You need to get out more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First of f all, they are closer to the Middle East and are a better target of opportunity.

Secondly, your assumptions are wrong.


They have more immigrants, but they are less successful at integrating them. In the U.S., we expect that the children of Muslim immigrants will be Americans AND Muslim with no contradiction. I had an argument with a German guy about how immigrants to Germany could never really be German and neither could their children. And Germany is probably better at integrating them than other countries.

A lot of Muslim immigrants to Europe are poor. A lot of Muslim immigrants to the U.S. are professionals and business owners. Professionals don't have time for that.

This pp nailed it. This is something that many people don't realize about the United States. While we still have racism here, our emphasis is on assimilation. We expect immigrants to be part of our society and to live wherever they want. In many European nations, immigrants are expected to remain outside of the mainstream culture, and remain geographically and economically isolated and impoverished in poor suburbs. This breeds anger and alienation. This is one of the reasons we've had fewer problems with terrorism.

That's why it's laughable that Ted Cruz and Donald Trump want patrols in Muslim neighborhoods. Yes, there are some in the United States but most Muslims do not live ghettoized in Muslim neighborhoods. Are they going to send cops around to knock on the doors of the individual Muslim family living down the block?

I'm the PP who you said nailed it. I am flattered, but I don't think you understood what I said, or perhaps I didn't express it clearly. It's not that the emphasis in the US is on assimilation; in fact, there is very blessed little of it. It's that in the U.S., assimilation is possible. It is possible because to be American, you do not have to look a particular way, worship in a particular way, read certain things, eat certain things etc. As long as you speak English passably, obey the laws and subscribe to a minimal set of common U.S. values, you have a shot at being American, and "mainstream" America expects nothing else of you.

In Europe, the assimilation standards are not achievable because no matter how well one speaks French, one is not and can never become French unless one is born that way. The European cultures are much more demanding of potential Europeans, and Europe is only now asking itself what it really means to be European, because just one generation ago the answer to this question was plain, obvious and cast in stone - you have to be French, Italian etc.

This is why Americans just fundamentally don't understand the position of Muslims in Europe - because they cannot relate to native Europeans whose national identity is hung on the ethnic peg, and because they cannot understand the anguish of immigrants who are asked to do the impossible in order to assimilate.

[Anonymous]

And what of the radical Muslims in other parts of the world that are involved in terrorism? Muslims that are completely assimilated into the culture, yet preach and teach jihadist radicalism in their madrassas and mosques?

We can keep excusing this behavior with reasons such as assimilation or economics while completely ignoring the fact that there are other minority groups also throughout Europe that have similar economic disadvantages yet are not violently acting out.

There have been 23 Islamic terrorist attacks around the world in the last 30 days. Around the world. But let's keep deluding ourselves to believe that this is a European problem, that this is an assimilation problem, that this is a geographical problem, etc...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No way are they more inclusive. They have some better policies, but I see a lot of exclusion. Muslims stuck in crummy neighborhoods, not getting great educations and not able to get good jobs. Of course it's not the case with everyone, but I see it in France for sure, Belgium as well.

My french relatives are pretty racist, even though there are North African muslims in the family! :o

+1

Muslims can integrate into American society much better than Muslims in Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hello, no. Europe is a way, way crappier place to be as an immigrant than the US. I've lived in both and can attest that in terms of opportunity, treatment, rights, etc. the US is way, way better.

Yes, there's a safety net and school is free. But there is a lack of access that non-native citizens face in Europe that doesn't exist in the US. Employers can discriminate on the basis of national origin in Europe. They can't do that here. Housing discrimination? Fine in Europe. Access to education -- terrible in both places, but at least in the US there's a glimmer of a shot of educating your kids because of civil rights laws requiring language access. Europe, just generally, in my view is a crappy place as a immigrant or refugee. And i say this as a Muslim woman.

The US is tougher in the sense that you have work hard to make a basic standard of living. You get the bare essentials in Europe. But in the US you can make much, much more of your life in terms of starting a business (like my family did) or getting an education (like I did). We are upper middle class and fairly successful. If we had stayed in France, I can guarantee our lives would have been much worse. That's why I love this country so much I literally work at the VA as a nurse practitioner. I love this country and helping its soldiers heal is the least I can do to express my gratitude.

Thank you for making this country great!

[Anonymous]

Europe, in reality, is not more inclusive and they don't expect Muslims to assimilate. That's the roots of their brainwashed Muslims population that turns to murder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Europe, in reality, is not more inclusive and they don't expect Muslims to assimilate. That's the roots of their brainwashed Muslims population that turns to murder.

It isn't actually possible for Muslims to assimilate according to the European assimilation standards that are felt, not written down - any more than it is possible for you to change your ethnicity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And what of the radical Muslims in other parts of the world that are involved in terrorism? Muslims that are completely assimilated into the culture, yet preach and teach jihadist radicalism in their madrassas and mosques?

We can keep excusing this behavior with reasons such as assimilation or economics while completely ignoring the fact that there are other minority groups also throughout Europe that have similar economic disadvantages yet are not violently acting out.

There have been 23 Islamic terrorist attacks around the world in the last 30 days. Around the world. But let's keep deluding ourselves to believe that this is a European problem, that this is an assimilation problem, that this is a geographical problem, etc...

No one is saying terrorism isn't a problem, or that terrorism is justified. This discussion is about the assimilation of Muslims in Europe vs. the U.S. It IS possible to discuss this without bringing up terrorism.

There is no such thing as an "Islamic" terrorist attack.

[Anonymous]

Europe had 2000 years to assimilate the Gypsies and it did not happen
Europe is not a country, but a continent
A continent has a number of independent nations.
French and Latvians and Swedes and Italians, Romanians are European, because their country is located on a continent named Europe.
The muslims that do live in Europe are more educated than the middle east muslims.