Maret/GDS US - pressure cooker or more laid back but still academically rigorous?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know any GDS kids who are really suffering under the pressure. The kids who take the rigorous schedule are the ones who love that sort of thing.

Wow, then we either know different GDS kids or have a different definition of "suffering." The rigorous schedule kids I know have been really stressed out junior year. Some of this is self-inflicted (course selection), but there are also structural and/or cultural issues. AP US History, for example, shouldn't be taught on a 3 day a week schedule. There are other U.S. History options, but the kids all seem to believe (and tell each other that) they would be taking themselves out of competition for top tier colleges if they passed on APUSH. So I don't really see the rigorous course schedules as coming out of love so much as out of fear, ego, competitiveness, etc.

Every college bound kid at every private school is stressed out junior year.

If that's true, then it's an argument for sticking with public. I've certainly seen high-performing Whitman kids get through junior year without being miserable. Then again, I've seen WIS kids do that too. I don't think it's a public vs. private divide -- it's more school-specific.

That said, to me one distinctive marker of parents at pressure cooker schools is how often their response to these issues is "it's normal" or "it's crazy but the kids love it," or "it's excellent prep for college and/or real life." No, it's not. Something's seriously messed up when bright, hardworking kids who by all objective measures are doing exceptionally well in school feel like failures, disappointments, or burnouts in HS and feel oppressed by and resentful of schoolwork. If a school community can't sustain the excitement and joy these same kids got from learning in the L/MS years, then something's wrong. And refusing to acknowledge that means that what's wrong is unlikely to get fixed.

OP here. Thanks for all the helpful comments. This post is what I am wondering about and why I singled out the schools I mentioned to ask about. The people we know who have kids at Maret (though truthfully it is all younger kids) talk a lot about how joyful a place it is. GDS posters here have mentioned that as well with some regularity. We will go tour and see - hopefully joyfulness and rigor can coexist and are able to be witnessed in a 1/2 day tour

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'd say they send, on average, about 2 kids out of 90 per year. Are there really any schools in the DC area that send 20% + of their graduating class to HYPS year after year?

Yes. St. Albans, NCS, and Sidwell routinely send 20% of their graduates to HYPs year after year.

But, you're right that there is a tradeoff between the high-pressure cooker environment and a more relaxed, humane one. I also think the HYPs are not right for everyone.

That said, kids at these schools also find ways to pursue their passions and interests, so your rather smug post about how your lovely schools is so much better than those competitive DC schools is informed by great ignorance of those schools. It's also true that some kids thrive when they are surrounded by other bright kids. They find it stimulating and challenging. DS really enjoyed meeting other kids who were intellectual peers and doesn't find the pressure at all off-putting, in part because academics comes relatively easily to him. He has plenty of time to pursue other passions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'd say they send, on average, about 2 kids out of 90 per year. Are there really any schools in the DC area that send 20% + of their graduating class to HYPS year after year?

Yes. St. Albans, NCS, and Sidwell routinely send 20% of their graduates to HYPs year after year.

But, you're right that there is a tradeoff between the high-pressure cooker environment and a more relaxed, humane one. I also think the HYPs are not right for everyone.

That said, kids at these schools also find ways to pursue their passions and interests, so your rather smug post about how your lovely schools is so much better than those competitive DC schools is informed by great ignorance of those schools. It's also true that some kids thrive when they are surrounded by other bright kids. They find it stimulating and challenging. DS really enjoyed meeting other kids who were intellectual peers and doesn't find the pressure at all off-putting, in part because academics comes relatively easily to him. He has plenty of time to pursue other passions.

Sidwell has, what, 125 seniors? The thread on this year's SFS college admissions indicated they had 13 going to HYPS. I don't think they "routinely" send 25 kids to HYPS. Or maybe they only placed half their routine contingent this year. I also haven't seen any indication that STA with 78 seniors "routinely" sends 15 or 16 to HYPS.

Someone might be coming off as rather smug in their posts, but it might not be the person you think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: OP, while I agree completely that pretty much every serious student these days is working very hard junior year and feels pressure, I have a different take on the public/private and private "pressure cooker" question you posed.

The key difference among schools in terms of pressure is this: what are the expectations of most students in the school (and their families)? The reason certain schools have a pressure cooker reputation is not that they teach more than everyone else does or give more homework in high school classes, it is because schools skewed with a disproportionately large percentage of a very high achievers result in kids feeling that what is "normal" is exceedingly high performance. Some kids in those schools do it and enjoy it, and for others it is tough. If you want to be in the top quarter or third of your class (or higher), you may not be able to do it unless you are both academically talented and very committed. This is what happens at so called "top" or "Big X" schools in the DC area. I think this is also what happens within the BCC full IB program which seems like a private school within BCC junior and senior year but with a lot more kids around.

Why do people often talk about some other privates as nurturing and less of an academic pressure cooker? Is it because they are not rigorous? Not necessarily at all. At St. Andrews, for example, I suspect the "regular classes" may be less demanding than the "regular" classes at "pressure cooker" school X. But the strongest students do not take most of those classes and instead will be in honors, APs or higher level language/math classes that I believe are quite comparable to the most rigorous classes at a "pressure cooker" school. Yes, those kids get a lot of homework probably more like a Big X school, and yes, at times everyone feels some stress especially junior and the first half of senior year (until college apps are sent out). But, here's the thing. At a school like Field, Burke, St. Andrew's, Bullis and others, fewer kids are aiming for ivy league/top LAC type schools. So if you are not one of those kids, you feel normal -- not like you are laggard. And if you are one of the kids loading up on AP or equivalent courses, peer pressure is likely to play a smaller role in your decision to take them. You are more like the kids that some posters say thrive on the intensity at a Big X school much of the time. I will say that in our experience while the homework can get heavy especially in 11th and 12th grade, earlier for the kids in more advanced classes, the "nurturing" side of the school comes through in teachers appreciating the entire student's life and in most cases showing flexibility on deadlines where events -- whether school sanctioned extra curricula activities, important family commitments, illness (of course) etc. -- conflict with a deadline. All work must get done and bogus excuses are not long tolerated, but the school does respect effort as well as outcomes, and that can somewhat reduce stress.

As for block schedules, St. Andrew's is a bit of a hybrid. Usually, three days per week you have all of your classes, but Wed and Thursday are block days so you get that benefit on those days of only needing to focus on half of your classes (the others meet on the other block day). So it is not like a school where you have class every day, but it is not like GDS where the alternating day class schedule is more like what we had in college.

Didn't mean to write such a long post, but hope this information is useful as you mull over the options OP.

SAES parent of US student here. ITA agree with this post. My US DD loves her peer group, and has chosen a good mix of AP/Honors and accelerated courses and has time to pursue her outside interests. Yes, she has a heavy workload, but she's bright and would be bored if she wasn't challenged, which she has said to me. She's not Ivy bound, but will probably get into a decent SLAC. For her, and me, it's about the fit, and setting her up to succeed. SAES does a great job at that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'd say they send, on average, about 2 kids out of 90 per year. Are there really any schools in the DC area that send 20% + of their graduating class to HYPS year after year?

But, you're right that there is a tradeoff between the high-pressure cooker environment and a more relaxed, humane one. I also think the HYPs are not right for everyone.

That said, kids at these schools also find ways to pursue their passions and interests, so your rather smug post about how your lovely schools is so much better than those competitive DC schools is informed by great ignorance of those schools. It's also true that some kids thrive when they are surrounded by other bright kids. They find it stimulating and challenging. DS really enjoyed meeting other kids who were intellectual peers and doesn't find the pressure at all off-putting, in part because academics comes relatively easily to him. He has plenty of time to pursue other passions.

I certainly didn't mean to seem smug. In fact, I thought that rather than exhibiting excessive pride in myself (the dictionary definition of smug), I was making the point that through my kid's school, I came to learn I was wrong regarding the educational approach that turned out to be best for my kid.

But every kid is different, for sure.

So, just as I'm glad that my son has landed in a place that's right for him, I'm glad that surrounding your kid with his intellectual peers, those bright kids who don't find pressure at all off-putting because academics come so easy to them, has been right for him.

But if you believe HYPS are only "right" for someone who comes out of a pressure cooker, we'll have to disagree on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many privates chools don't even have AP classes any more. I'm surprised GDS still teaches to a standardized test.

That's like saying many good colleges don't require the SATs. All of the good schools that emphasize academics like the Big 3 here, Exeter, Andover, TJ, etc offer APs bc there is a demand for them. You can save a lot of tuition if the college will give credit and it's a way to show that the kid is a more than capable student.

Fact Check: Exeter doesn't have AP clasess.

Not per se but they have classes on the level so that you can get a "5" on the APs.

There is a difference between teaching to an AP test and teaching at such a high level that successful students score a 5. Lot's of progessive schools (why I'm surprised GDS still has AP humanities classes) teach at such high levels that students do well without bowing to the AP curriculum. This is nothing new. Some of the most well-known schools in the nation began phasing out classes based on AP curriculum more than 10 years ago. AP is still going strong with math and science but the most elite math and science students are working at a level far above the testing range of the AP exams. My personal view is that AP classes are an insurance policy for diligent students who may have weak teachers - teachers who need the support of a standardized curriculum.

When I went to GDS (25 years ago) there were no AP classes - at least in liberal arts subjects. That being said, I took 4 AP exams - Latin, English, US History, and European (or something close) history). I think I also took Biology. I got 5's in all of them and so did most of my friends - the AP exams seemed easy given the preparation we had.

I think the real value of AP scores now at established private high schools like GDS lies in the ability to place out (in college) of introductory language courses, or math courses like Calculus, and science courses like whatever AP Chem, Physics, and Biology are called now at college. At most Ivy League schools, they will not allow you to enter as a sophomore or take fewer classes for graduation, but at other institutions, the ability to graduate in 3 years due to high scores on AP exams saves a year of tuition and should not be taken lightly. But at places like MIT, you can just keep continuing at your advanced pace without actually having to have been there to get to that initial "place out" level - and this is a GREAT thing............

At this time, the math landscape at elite high schools has changed significantly. In my day, no one was teaching anything post Calculus at GDS. We just sent the STEM gifted kids off to college early. My understanding is that now both at GDS and STA (and probably other places), they are offering classes above Calculus for which there are no APs - because they are indisputably college courses, like multilinear equations (cut me some slack here on the names of the classes please, but they do exist). This is much better than sending 10th graders off to the University of Chicago and is a really positive development, but I am not sure any college would just take any school's word for it that a student does not need to take Calculus in college without that 4 or 5 on their transcript. So while I don't see why the AP title for the course is necessary (I do not remember taking a single "AP course," just the AP exams), I do see the intrinsic value of taking and scoring highly on the AP exams so one does not have to retake a bunch of courses in college.

The other way I see the "AP course label" being useful for established schools is that it sends a message that the course will be more rigorous, that the expectations will be higher. At GDS back in my day not only were there no "AP classes," there were also no "honors" classes - no tracking of any kind, except when you decided you did not want to take Latin for all 4 years of high school, or move on to Trig, Pre-Calculus and Calculus. So perhaps this is their way of separating people without doing it by using such a loaded term as "honors." Just speculation on my part, but it would make sense to me given the GDS I know.

In terms of other schools, public schools, and newly established charter schools, we all know why the AP exams are critical - to measure the caliber of the school and the student and college readiness. One thing we are told to ask as alumni interviewers when interviewing students from the Questbridge Program (a program that apparently culls out promising applicants with limited financial resources who may not have guidance counselors or anyone to really help them, and helps them apply to colleges and for financial aid) is how many AP courses are offered at their high schools (some schools offer as few as 4), and of those, how many the students took...... And that can be the beginning of some very interesting conversations in my experience.

But especially if your child is in the 3rd or 4th graduating class of one of these Charter schools here in DC, even if the school is a highly ranked chain like BASIS, no college is going to believe absent evidence that they can provide the same kind of education here that they have in Arizona. So for schools like that, and at schools like Wilson, where the colleges have to separate the wheat from the chaff, AP scores become very important. I am still not sure that AP exams are all that much tougher now than they were in the mid 80s when I took them - my oldest child is just starting the process - but I do know that at schools that are public or charter (not GDS), the students need to be given the material to score highly on the exam, and since the exam is supposed to measure the knowledge a student needs to go to the next level in college, in this particular situation, I see nothing wrong with "teaching to the test" especially since at Charters there are constantly revolving teachers and no set curriculum sometimes. What better alternative than a curriculum that focuses on getting a 4 or 5 on the AP exam? This is not like teaching to the DC CAS. These are real subjects, this is real knowledge. While I admire the fact that the College Board has stated that they are revising the APs to measure critical thinking skills more than mere rote memorization, and think that can only help, the fund of knowledge has to be there in the first place. So for these schools, it is about proving that they (or their students in spite of them) can actually educate at a college level.

And that is a CRITICAL milestone in the progress of any DC public or charter school. I understand that at Wilson anyone can sign up for AP classes, which is why their overall AP scores are so low. At BASIS, students are required to take 6 APs for graduation, but the timing of when these exams are taken depends on what group the child is in - if they are in accelerated math they will take AP Calculus AB in 8th, accelerated science, AP Chemistry in 9th - both of those tracks are selective admission. Math is determined by a placement exam, and the LEAP (fast track science) requires grades, a rec from the teacher teaching the class, and acceptance from the teacher who will be teaching the AP class........... So for schools that are not well established private schools, the APs serve a much more critical and valuable function. That being said, I cannot imagine any of my friends who graduated early wanting to go off to college or university and take Calculus over again or basic Bio, Chem and Physics. And high scores on APs avoid this for everyone - whether or not they get actual "college credit," can save money, graduate early. It avoids these kids having to spin their wheels and waste their time, and in my experience they have already done enough of that by the time that they get to college - so I am very glad that both in private and public schools we are now offering them the opportunity to stay in high school longer, because while the intellectual stimulation they craved was only available at colleges at that time, that is no longer true now, and the adjustment was really tough, and not everyone survived.

[Anonymous]

Out of curiosity, did anyone here got to a college where, unless you took AP exams, you had to sit through courses covering material you'd already learned in HS? Between (free) placement tests administered by individual departments, course choice generally, and professorial discretion, I never saw that happen. But I've studied/taught at schools with few requirements and in majors where either there weren't prerequisites or where you could substitute multiple advanced/specialized courses to meet the departmental breadth requirements (e.g. Take one survey course OR two more narrowly focused seminars in different subfields).

[Anonymous]

Some of the best courses I took in college were into level. If I had missed those by taking a standardized test in HS instead...well it would have been a huge shame.

[Anonymous]

DD was advised not to take AP Bio for that reason.

[Anonymous]

OP, it looks like nobody really answered your question about Maret. We have a kid who entered in 9th grade this year. It is wonderful. "Joy" is explicitly in the mission statement, and the school takes that seriously. The academics can be quite advanced, depending on what classes a kid takes (in 9th grade, there is substantial differentiation among math classes, and different language levels too - and then many more options in later years). But the homework is not overwhelming in quantity. Nice kids, kind and effective teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'd say they send, on average, about 2 kids out of 90 per year. Are there really any schools in the DC area that send 20% + of their graduating class to HYPS year after year?

Yes. St. Albans, NCS, and Sidwell routinely send 20% of their graduates to HYPs year after year.

But, you're right that there is a tradeoff between the high-pressure cooker environment and a more relaxed, humane one. I also think the HYPs are not right for everyone.

That said, kids at these schools also find ways to pursue their passions and interests, so your rather smug post about how your lovely schools is so much better than those competitive DC schools is informed by great ignorance of those schools. It's also true that some kids thrive when they are surrounded by other bright kids. They find it stimulating and challenging. DS really enjoyed meeting other kids who were intellectual peers and doesn't find the pressure at all off-putting, in part because academics comes relatively easily to him. He has plenty of time to pursue other passions.

GDS is at least at this percentage.

[Anonymous]

No skin in the game whatsoever. I used to coach a sport at Maret and without fail the kids were good kids. Nice, funny, engaged and not snobby (at least one was the child of a billionaire and you'd never know it). Granted this was just my experience but I was consistently pleasantly surprised at how nice each kid was (I've never been involved with teenage kids in sports before or since with such a good group of kids).

[Anonymous]

It is not just the high expectation of the other students at Sidwell that makes junior and senior year so pressure packed, although it does contribute to it. The teachers at Sidwell, which offers no AP Classes, teach incredibly rigorous classes, and hours of preparation are required for every class ( there are no easy classes). In addition, like many juniors and seniors the kids prep for SATs, subject tests and AP tests. Many of kids are very involved in extracurriculars including sports that require an hour or two per day. They are also visiting colleges and attending college fairs. Put this all together and there is little time for sleep or ordinary family activities. I realize junior and senior years are intense everywhere, but the academic expectations from the teachers nad the grade deflation at Sidwell are extraordinary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many privates chools don't even have AP classes any more. I'm surprised GDS still teaches to a standardized test.

That's like saying many good colleges don't require the SATs. All of the good schools that emphasize academics like the Big 3 here, Exeter, Andover, TJ, etc offer APs bc there is a demand for them. You can save a lot of tuition if the college will give credit and it's a way to show that the kid is a more than capable student.

Not true. Sidwell does not offer AP classes. Kids are encouraged to take the tests if they are interested,but the school does not teach to these tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many privates chools don't even have AP classes any more. I'm surprised GDS still teaches to a standardized test.

That's like saying many good colleges don't require the SATs. All of the good schools that emphasize academics like the Big 3 here, Exeter, Andover, TJ, etc offer APs bc there is a demand for them. You can save a lot of tuition if the college will give credit and it's a way to show that the kid is a more than capable student.

Not true. Sidwell does not offer AP classes. Kids are encouraged to take the tests if they are interested,but the school does not teach to these tests.

I don't think any of the schools we are talking about here (GDS, STA, Sidwell, Maret) teach to the test. Calling a class an AP or merely encouraging the kids to take the AP exam afterwards is a distinction without a difference.