Not all high school good grades are equal at selective universities

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my college roommate. Had straight A's from tiny town hihg school in PA. I thought he'd kick my butt, me being a B-average student from a "W" school in MoCo. We were both in engineering so not easy stuff.

His grades the first yet? All F's except for 1 D. He transferred out right after. I guess in his HS, just showing up gets you a B, and turning in your assignment on time gets you an A.

Hey creeper... Normal people don't ask their roommates what their grades were in HS.

NP here, my guess is roommate in this case more likely volunteered he had straight A's in HS, which would not be unusual. So many defensive posts in response to this one anecdote. Kind of makes you think the PP hit a nerve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not really getting your whole point, to be honest…no one said that they kids who are taking non-AP/IB classes and working hard in other ways aren't smart and worth a lot, but that doesn't justify you putting down the kids who take the AP/IB route. There is no need to put down some for the sake of others. And, yes, I agree about the difficulties of getting into UVA for kids in No VA, but there are 11 public universities in Virginia that are good and kids get a great education. Again, why would you put down kids who go to the other public universities? Virginia residents are so lucky to have so many public options! Just ask people in surrounding states who do not have the list of public options (i.e. Washington, DC which has no public option!!).

Did you read the article, past point #1 that all grades are not created equal? Just because AP classes inflate kids GPAs ... SAT scores remain flat.

The point about UVA is if all colleges cared about was "rigor" and GPA then UVA would most have kids from nova, but it doesn't, why... Because colleges care about so many other factors than GPA and rigor. GPA is subjective.

Do we know that the GPAs being compared in the article are weighted--that is, that they give greater weight to AP classes? I would hope that any analysis of GPAs over time controls for AP classes. Otherwise, the comparison is meaningless. The author of the article is using the relationship between GPA and SAT scores over time not to make the point that AP classes inflate GPAs, but rather to make the point that rising GPAs are likely due to grading in ALL classes getting easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my college roommate. Had straight A's from tiny town hihg school in PA. I thought he'd kick my butt, me being a B-average student from a "W" school in MoCo. We were both in engineering so not easy stuff.

His grades the first yet? All F's except for 1 D. He transferred out right after. I guess in his HS, just showing up gets you a B, and turning in your assignment on time gets you an A.

This is least intelligent post I have read in a while, which says a lot since I read the 2nd wives thread.

Nah, that one was OK. The one about "manipulating AP tests" was dumb, as was the one about getting someone else to take the SAT for you. For a year or so now, the College Board has required that you upload your photo when you register, and that you show ID on the day of the test. I don't think you can change your registration photo. So if your plan was to get different people to take your various AP and SAT subject tests for you, you're SOL.

I agree that it's widely known that colleges' regional reps understand the relative rigor at different high schools within their assigned regions. Also that many colleges reweight your transcript according to their own, proprietary formulas.

You can manipulate your GPA with AP classes especially if your tiger mom does your projects and you have top notch tutors.

OK, you really don't understand how this works, do you? I nominate your "get your tiger mom to do your AP projects for you" as the least intelligent post today. AP classes are nothing like the middle school science fair, unless your tiger mom also happens to be an NIH chemist or a university history prof.

For the record, most selective universities start with your UNweighted GPA, i.e., they give your A in AP World History a 4 not a 5. Then they reweight it using their own system. They may well give more weight to an AP class--but that's because AP classes are harder than regular or honors classes. High school honors classes are pretty easy, frankly. AP classes are supposed to be college-level classes, so the kid is working harder. Don't you think more work might deserve a higher weight?

The tutor thing is an advantage that rich kids have over poor kids. Yes, rich kids can buy extra help. But at the end of the day, kids in AP classes still have to master more material than kids in regular or honors classes.

Okay, so you don't know how it works. My sister teaches in a high school and all the parents do their kids outside research. Most their tiger moms have advanced degrees. You are delusional if you think these kids do original research and hand in projects done without professional help.

Her principal has flipped 1/2 the projects to in school projects with lectures being viewed at home because it is impossible to get moms and dads out of the mix.

I don't care if they weight AP classes with a silver spoon but the fact is people are playing the system.

Even though selective school redo GPAs, less selective do not. Also, more selective schools look at how rigorous the schedule is and when your mom and a tutor do some of your homework for you and edit/rewrite all you research papers it is much easier to take a rigorous schedule.

In the end no matter how much an AP student has to master vs another student ... They are missing out mastering things like resilience, independence and emotional intelligence other kids are mastering without their parents doing their work for them.

Is there any evidence that suggests that kids in AP classes are more likely to have parents doing their work for them?

The article indicates colleges are giving greater weight to the AP exam, not the AP grade, which should set your mind at ease. If Johnny's mom is doing all the work for him, so he gets an A in the class, it will be easy for colleges to see that something is amiss when he gets a 2 on the exam. While the kid who is soldiering through alone will actually be learning something and should perform better on the exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my college roommate. Had straight A's from tiny town hihg school in PA. I thought he'd kick my butt, me being a B-average student from a "W" school in MoCo. We were both in engineering so not easy stuff.

His grades the first yet? All F's except for 1 D. He transferred out right after. I guess in his HS, just showing up gets you a B, and turning in your assignment on time gets you an A.

This is least intelligent post I have read in a while, which says a lot since I read the 2nd wives thread.

Nah, that one was OK. The one about "manipulating AP tests" was dumb, as was the one about getting someone else to take the SAT for you. For a year or so now, the College Board has required that you upload your photo when you register, and that you show ID on the day of the test. I don't think you can change your registration photo. So if your plan was to get different people to take your various AP and SAT subject tests for you, you're SOL.

I agree that it's widely known that colleges' regional reps understand the relative rigor at different high schools within their assigned regions. Also that many colleges reweight your transcript according to their own, proprietary formulas.

You can manipulate your GPA with AP classes especially if your tiger mom does your projects and you have top notch tutors.

OK, you really don't understand how this works, do you? I nominate your "get your tiger mom to do your AP projects for you" as the least intelligent post today. AP classes are nothing like the middle school science fair, unless your tiger mom also happens to be an NIH chemist or a university history prof.

For the record, most selective universities start with your UNweighted GPA, i.e., they give your A in AP World History a 4 not a 5. Then they reweight it using their own system. They may well give more weight to an AP class--but that's because AP classes are harder than regular or honors classes. High school honors classes are pretty easy, frankly. AP classes are supposed to be college-level classes, so the kid is working harder. Don't you think more work might deserve a higher weight?

The tutor thing is an advantage that rich kids have over poor kids. Yes, rich kids can buy extra help. But at the end of the day, kids in AP classes still have to master more material than kids in regular or honors classes.

Okay, so you don't know how it works. My sister teaches in a high school and all the parents do their kids outside research. Most their tiger moms have advanced degrees. You are delusional if you think these kids do original research and hand in projects done without professional help.

Her principal has flipped 1/2 the projects to in school projects with lectures being viewed at home because it is impossible to get moms and dads out of the mix.

I don't care if they weight AP classes with a silver spoon but the fact is people are playing the system.

Even though selective school redo GPAs, less selective do not. Also, more selective schools look at how rigorous the schedule is and when your mom and a tutor do some of your homework for you and edit/rewrite all you research papers it is much easier to take a rigorous schedule.

In the end no matter how much an AP student has to master vs another student ... They are missing out mastering things like resilience, independence and emotional intelligence other kids are mastering without their parents doing their work for them.

Is there any evidence that suggests that kids in AP classes are more likely to have parents doing their work for them?

The article indicates colleges are giving greater weight to the AP exam, not the AP grade, which should set your mind at ease. If Johnny's mom is doing all the work for him, so he gets an A in the class, it will be easy for colleges to see that something is amiss when he gets a 2 on the exam. While the kid who is soldiering through alone will actually be learning something and should perform better on the exam.

They do talk about how wealth and tutors gives an advantage on test taking.

They also state... But in an era of helicopter parenting, colleges increasingly worry that these essays aren't written by the student. To combat the possibility that parents, siblings or school counselors may be ghostwriting essays...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not really getting your whole point, to be honest…no one said that they kids who are taking non-AP/IB classes and working hard in other ways aren't smart and worth a lot, but that doesn't justify you putting down the kids who take the AP/IB route. There is no need to put down some for the sake of others. And, yes, I agree about the difficulties of getting into UVA for kids in No VA, but there are 11 public universities in Virginia that are good and kids get a great education. Again, why would you put down kids who go to the other public universities? Virginia residents are so lucky to have so many public options! Just ask people in surrounding states who do not have the list of public options (i.e. Washington, DC which has no public option!!).

Did you read the article, past point #1 that all grades are not created equal? Just because AP classes inflate kids GPAs ... SAT scores remain flat.

The point about UVA is if all colleges cared about was "rigor" and GPA then UVA would most have kids from nova, but it doesn't, why... Because colleges care about so many other factors than GPA and rigor. GPA is subjective.

Do we know that the GPAs being compared in the article are weighted--that is, that they give greater weight to AP classes? I would hope that any analysis of GPAs over time controls for AP classes. Otherwise, the comparison is meaningless. The author of the article is using the relationship between GPA and SAT scores over time not to make the point that AP classes inflate GPAs, but rather to make the point that rising GPAs are likely due to grading in ALL classes getting easier.

What the article is saying is that ..

All that said, admissions officers generally believe that if you have a good GPA in high school, you'll probably have a good GPA in college.

The idea that your specific school is know to be more rigorous is silly. They know that GPA's are not only subjective from school to school but from teacher to teacher, so if a child generally has a good GPA they will be fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please refrain from using the term "Tiger Mom" since it is considered racist and derogatory by Asian Americans.

Ok, but didn't an Asian popularize the saying? Anyway, people used to complain about Jews being "pushy" parents. Same deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not really getting your whole point, to be honest…no one said that they kids who are taking non-AP/IB classes and working hard in other ways aren't smart and worth a lot, but that doesn't justify you putting down the kids who take the AP/IB route. There is no need to put down some for the sake of others. And, yes, I agree about the difficulties of getting into UVA for kids in No VA, but there are 11 public universities in Virginia that are good and kids get a great education. Again, why would you put down kids who go to the other public universities? Virginia residents are so lucky to have so many public options! Just ask people in surrounding states who do not have the list of public options (i.e. Washington, DC which has no public option!!).

Did you read the article, past point #1 that all grades are not created equal? Just because AP classes inflate kids GPAs ... SAT scores remain flat.

The point about UVA is if all colleges cared about was "rigor" and GPA then UVA would most have kids from nova, but it doesn't, why... Because colleges care about so many other factors than GPA and rigor. GPA is subjective.

Do we know that the GPAs being compared in the article are weighted--that is, that they give greater weight to AP classes? I would hope that any analysis of GPAs over time controls for AP classes. Otherwise, the comparison is meaningless. The author of the article is using the relationship between GPA and SAT scores over time not to make the point that AP classes inflate GPAs, but rather to make the point that rising GPAs are likely due to grading in ALL classes getting easier.

What the article is saying is that ..

All that said, admissions officers generally believe that if you have a good GPA in high school, you'll probably have a good GPA in college.

The idea that your specific school is know to be more rigorous is silly. They know that GPA's are not only subjective from school to school but from teacher to teacher, so if a child generally has a good GPA they will be fine.

This. At the vast majority of colleges, no one has the time to do this parsing of alleged overall quality. A high gpa always looks great.

[Anonymous]

Maybe "at the vast majority of colleges" this may be true, but at the selective ones they absolutely know which school are more rigorous than others. That does not mean they don't take into account numerous other factors, but the admission reps know that an A from one school is not the same as an A from another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my college roommate. Had straight A's from tiny town hihg school in PA. I thought he'd kick my butt, me being a B-average student from a "W" school in MoCo. We were both in engineering so not easy stuff.

His grades the first yet? All F's except for 1 D. He transferred out right after. I guess in his HS, just showing up gets you a B, and turning in your assignment on time gets you an A.

This is least intelligent post I have read in a while, which says a lot since I read the 2nd wives thread.

Nah, that one was OK. The one about "manipulating AP tests" was dumb, as was the one about getting someone else to take the SAT for you. For a year or so now, the College Board has required that you upload your photo when you register, and that you show ID on the day of the test. I don't think you can change your registration photo. So if your plan was to get different people to take your various AP and SAT subject tests for you, you're SOL.

I agree that it's widely known that colleges' regional reps understand the relative rigor at different high schools within their assigned regions. Also that many colleges reweight your transcript according to their own, proprietary formulas.

You can manipulate your GPA with AP classes especially if your tiger mom does your projects and you have top notch tutors.

OK, you really don't understand how this works, do you? I nominate your "get your tiger mom to do your AP projects for you" as the least intelligent post today. AP classes are nothing like the middle school science fair, unless your tiger mom also happens to be an NIH chemist or a university history prof.

For the record, most selective universities start with your UNweighted GPA, i.e., they give your A in AP World History a 4 not a 5. Then they reweight it using their own system. They may well give more weight to an AP class--but that's because AP classes are harder than regular or honors classes. High school honors classes are pretty easy, frankly. AP classes are supposed to be college-level classes, so the kid is working harder. Don't you think more work might deserve a higher weight?

The tutor thing is an advantage that rich kids have over poor kids. Yes, rich kids can buy extra help. But at the end of the day, kids in AP classes still have to master more material than kids in regular or honors classes.

Okay, so you don't know how it works. My sister teaches in a high school and all the parents do their kids outside research. Most their tiger moms have advanced degrees. You are delusional if you think these kids do original research and hand in projects done without professional help.

Her principal has flipped 1/2 the projects to in school projects with lectures being viewed at home because it is impossible to get moms and dads out of the mix.

I don't care if they weight AP classes with a silver spoon but the fact is people are playing the system.

Even though selective school redo GPAs, less selective do not. Also, more selective schools look at how rigorous the schedule is and when your mom and a tutor do some of your homework for you and edit/rewrite all you research papers it is much easier to take a rigorous schedule.

In the end no matter how much an AP student has to master vs another student ... They are missing out mastering things like resilience, independence and emotional intelligence other kids are mastering without their parents doing their work for them.

I'm not the poster you are responding to, but I think you're being overly dramatic and definitely relying on anecdotal "evidence" to back up your theory that ALL students who take AP tests have their parents do their work. Although I'm confident that there are some idiot parents out there who are so desperate for their kids to go that Ivies or other selective schools that they do their kids' work for them and I also believe that the teachers and school administrators have to change things because of overly involved parents, but your sweeping generalizations that AP classes are worthless because some people do this is rather odd. It's a slap in the face to the kids who do work their asses off in these difficult classes and do well. My DD didn't take AP classes, but was in an IB program of which she never received any help from me or her father. She was there to learn, worked her butt off and did quite well. I wouldn't have done her work for her if she asked, but she never once asked. She WANTED to do it herself and, you know what, so did all of her friends.

I am sure you are proud of your daughter and all her work, but it is equally impressive if a kid helps support his family working and gets pretty good grades in non-Ib/AP classes... Or a kid is a star athlete which is equivalent to a full time job and gets alright grades... Or a child with dyslexia that works their ass off for B's.

It's not like she has cured cancer, I smart sure end is a good student, but good students are a fine a dozen..

This is why northern VA kids have such so hard time getting into UVA, they may have better scores than somebody in south western Va. but that does not make them "better".

NoVa kids have a hard time getting into some state schools because the schools admit less qualified students from other parts of the state to ensure support for continued funding by the state legislature. The NoVa kids are clearly discriminated against because of their address, but so it goes.

[Anonymous]

This is not news...yawn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe "at the vast majority of colleges" this may be true, but at the selective ones they absolutely know which school are more rigorous than others. That does not mean they don't take into account numerous other factors, but the admission reps know that an A from one school is not the same as an A from another.

They use to know and care... not so much any more. You should read the original research from William Hiss instead of the bad interpretation of the article posted.

[Anonymous]

NoVa kids have a hard time getting into some state schools because the schools admit less qualified students from other parts of the state to ensure support for continued funding by the state legislature. The NoVa kids are clearly discriminated against because of their address, but so it goes.

It's a perfect example of the admission staff not caring how rigorous the school is the exact opposite of what the article states, and we know this to be true about NoVa.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was my college roommate. Had straight A's from tiny town hihg school in PA. I thought he'd kick my butt, me being a B-average student from a "W" school in MoCo. We were both in engineering so not easy stuff.

His grades the first yet? All F's except for 1 D. He transferred out right after. I guess in his HS, just showing up gets you a B, and turning in your assignment on time gets you an A.

This is least intelligent post I have read in a while, which says a lot since I read the 2nd wives thread.

Nah, that one was OK. The one about "manipulating AP tests" was dumb, as was the one about getting someone else to take the SAT for you. For a year or so now, the College Board has required that you upload your photo when you register, and that you show ID on the day of the test. I don't think you can change your registration photo. So if your plan was to get different people to take your various AP and SAT subject tests for you, you're SOL.

I agree that it's widely known that colleges' regional reps understand the relative rigor at different high schools within their assigned regions. Also that many colleges reweight your transcript according to their own, proprietary formulas.

You can manipulate your GPA with AP classes especially if your tiger mom does your projects and you have top notch tutors.

OK, you really don't understand how this works, do you? I nominate your "get your tiger mom to do your AP projects for you" as the least intelligent post today. AP classes are nothing like the middle school science fair, unless your tiger mom also happens to be an NIH chemist or a university history prof.

For the record, most selective universities start with your UNweighted GPA, i.e., they give your A in AP World History a 4 not a 5. Then they reweight it using their own system. They may well give more weight to an AP class--but that's because AP classes are harder than regular or honors classes. High school honors classes are pretty easy, frankly. AP classes are supposed to be college-level classes, so the kid is working harder. Don't you think more work might deserve a higher weight?

The tutor thing is an advantage that rich kids have over poor kids. Yes, rich kids can buy extra help. But at the end of the day, kids in AP classes still have to master more material than kids in regular or honors classes.

Okay, so you don't know how it works. My sister teaches in a high school and all the parents do their kids outside research. Most their tiger moms have advanced degrees. You are delusional if you think these kids do original research and hand in projects done without professional help.

Her principal has flipped 1/2 the projects to in school projects with lectures being viewed at home because it is impossible to get moms and dads out of the mix.

I don't care if they weight AP classes with a silver spoon but the fact is people are playing the system.

Even though selective school redo GPAs, less selective do not. Also, more selective schools look at how rigorous the schedule is and when your mom and a tutor do some of your homework for you and edit/rewrite all you research papers it is much easier to take a rigorous schedule.

In the end no matter how much an AP student has to master vs another student ... They are missing out mastering things like resilience, independence and emotional intelligence other kids are mastering without their parents doing their work for them.

I'm not the poster you are responding to, but I think you're being overly dramatic and definitely relying on anecdotal "evidence" to back up your theory that ALL students who take AP tests have their parents do their work. Although I'm confident that there are some idiot parents out there who are so desperate for their kids to go that Ivies or other selective schools that they do their kids' work for them and I also believe that the teachers and school administrators have to change things because of overly involved parents, but your sweeping generalizations that AP classes are worthless because some people do this is rather odd. It's a slap in the face to the kids who do work their asses off in these difficult classes and do well. My DD didn't take AP classes, but was in an IB program of which she never received any help from me or her father. She was there to learn, worked her butt off and did quite well. I wouldn't have done her work for her if she asked, but she never once asked. She WANTED to do it herself and, you know what, so did all of her friends.

I am sure you are proud of your daughter and all her work, but it is equally impressive if a kid helps support his family working and gets pretty good grades in non-Ib/AP classes... Or a kid is a star athlete which is equivalent to a full time job and gets alright grades... Or a child with dyslexia that works their ass off for B's.

It's not like she has cured cancer, I smart sure end is a good student, but good students are a fine a dozen..

This is why northern VA kids have such so hard time getting into UVA, they may have better scores than somebody in south western Va. but that does not make them "better".

NoVa kids have a hard time getting into some state schools because the schools admit less qualified students from other parts of the state to ensure support for continued funding by the state legislature. The NoVa kids are clearly discriminated against because of their address, but so it goes.

They are state schools. Part of their mission is to seek qualified applicants from all parts of the state. If you don't like it, convince the state to set up University of Virginia-McLean

[Anonymous]

+ 1 pp. It benefits the state to educate students from all corners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please refrain from using the term "Tiger Mom" since it is considered racist and derogatory by Asian Americans.

+1

Asian parents should refrain from going their kids homework.

Asian parents do not help with their kids' homework and writing assignments. If any parents are helping with their kids' homework or writing assignments, its the white parents.

I am white and my DC will be a junior next year at a private and taking APs for the first time. There is no way in heck I am doing her homework ever. I am way too lazy for that!