Who will stop Israel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just don't understand how the US can be one of its biggest allies. Israel continues to decimate its neighbors and help other countries do the same. (They supplied my native government with arms and military training to help decimate the minority there.) Growing up, I thought that Jews deserved the most sympathy because of the Holocaust - that feeling has certainly changed....

I never thought that anyone deserved THE MOST sympathy for anything...however, if you believe that, what does taking Palestinian land have to do with sympathy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it wholly amusing that Americans, especially women, are supporting a terrorist group in a part of the world where women are regarded as second class citizens, and little children are routinely raped and sold off as child brides. Let's not even start on honor killings.

While I am never happy about casualties of war, the big picture to me, is much more frightening. So many Middle-Easterners here, who have lived the brutality of their countries, see the benefit of Israel's free society and have expressed grave concerns for her survival.

In typical progressive fashion, it's all about 'the feels', and not about logic.

Ladies, would you like to live in Israel or in Middle-Eastern countries that allow you no freedoms you enjoy today? How about your daughters? Do you consider honor killings and child rapes, sanctioned by the government, appealing?

As for those 'brutal Israelis', a few metro bombings, and suicide bombers in your grocery stores, etc would wake you up real fast, especially if it all came from the same people. You would not feel so benevolent anymore, if a simple trip to Giant could easily result in your death.

There is a reason why Israeli teachers carry weapons; it has become a necessity. If you think Israelis consistently and deliberately target children, you need to do a lot more reading.

+1
It is just odd to me how so many draw a moral equivalency between the two sides when it does not even seem close.

One country developed and deploys a defensive missle system to protect it's civilian population. Offensively, it targets the rocket launching sites of its opponents. The other side targets civilian populations intentionally and as a defense, imbeds its rocket launching it's own civilian population. One side employs an "Iron Shield" to protect its citizens. The other side employs "human shields" to protect its rockets.

People want to blame Israel for the death tolls here? How about Hamas (a terrorist group bent on the destruction of Jews) stop launching rockets at Israel and move its rocket launchers away from civilian populations. It is Hamas that puts Palestinian women and children at risk.

+100 - Both posts are great.

+1000. Ask yourself:

- how many Arab and Muslim citizens of Israel are there? (Tens of thousands, maybe more). There are even Palestinian members of the Kneset.

- compare that with the number of Jews in the West Bank. ZERO. They'd be immediately kidnapped. Hamas has zero tolerance.

Zero tolerance also for peace. Hamas wants only war. They love death because they think they go straight to heaven. There can be no peace until this terrorist organization is eliminated.

Huh??? The ignorance is astounding:

I think PP meant Gaza Strip, not West Bank, judging by the post immediately below his.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:The last several posts have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. But, as so often happens, the defenders of Israel are simply justifying the killing of Palestinians civilians, especially children.

The disparity in the death toll and the fact that the vast majority of Palestinian deaths have been civilians undermines nearly every claim made by the apologists for the Israelis. The Israelis claim to be targeting military targets. Hamas makes the same claim. I don't think either of them should be believed, but look at the results: Israel has killed mostly civilians including a large number of children. Hamas has killed mostly soldiers -- in fact, killing only two civilians.

The Israeli tactics are based on a willingness to accept Palestinian civilian deaths. These tactics are implemented knowing that Palestinian civilians will be killed. These are not humane tactics and there can be no justification for them. That explains why nearly every defense of Israel relies on the dehumanization of the Palestinians.

In response to the original poster of this thread, I don't know who will stop Israel. Israel has a strongly-held belief in the effectiveness of military strength. But, in recent years, the limits of military might have become more obvious. Israel failed in its last invasion of Lebanon and it appears that Gaza is going a similar way. At some point, perhaps Israel will realize that force is not working for it it and will chose a different path. In that case, Israel will stop Israel .

The answer is that no one will stop Israel. They are in an existential conflict. Their enemies want the country to cease to exist. Given those circumstances, they aren't going to be influenced by the "International Community" either by those nations friendly or unfriendly to them.

Israel is not God. Part of the existential conflict is that Israelis will have to decide whether they can exist without Israel. Israelis have many friends but Israel has very few, and its main patron is increasingly sick of it.

That is my point. They don't care about international opinion. A significant percentage of their population is spending their days planning what to do in case they hear an air raid siren. Think about that in terms of this country. If millions of Americans were running to bomb shelters every day, you can bet that we would not give a crap about whether or not France, Russia, and Senegal were mad that we decided to demolish our enemy. Think about this...these people get rockets launched at them, every day. So no one is going to "stop" them from trying to destroy the rockets of their enemies, not the US, not the UN, and certainly not their enemies, who intentionally put those rockets in civilian populations.

The Hamas rockets are a nuisance that inflict virtually no casualties, but they are an unpleasant reminder to Israel that the Palestinians are not happy with their treatment at the hands of Israel. So they bomb the daylights out of Gaza and make life hell for the inhabitants of the West Bank, at the same time that most Israelis go about their lives largely undisturbed. They claim not to care about international opinion, but some day there may be internationally sanctioned air strikes on Israel just like there were on Belgrade when Serbia was hell-bent on destroying Kosovo. The rest of the world can isolate Israel, which exists at the pleasure of the Americans, and wipe it off the map if it does not change its ways.

Nuisance? The only reason the death tolls are not equal is Iron Dome, and if that ever fails, hundreds of people die.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Nuisance? The only reason the death tolls are not equal is Iron Dome, and if that ever fails, hundreds of people die.

No, that is not the only reason. That is not even one of the major reasons. Iron Dome is not actually effective:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-21/israels-iron-dome-weapons-expert-warns-of-major-flaws

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nuisance? The only reason the death tolls are not equal is Iron Dome, and if that ever fails, hundreds of people die.

No, that is not the only reason. That is not even one of the major reasons. Iron Dome is not actually effective:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-21/israels-iron-dome-weapons-expert-warns-of-major-flaws

That exact article shows major conflicts of interest by the researchers. Also, based on the article, it still seems to be shooting missiles out of the sky. If it wasn't, and they actually impacted, death tolls would be certainly higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:The last several posts have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. But, as so often happens, the defenders of Israel are simply justifying the killing of Palestinians civilians, especially children.

The disparity in the death toll and the fact that the vast majority of Palestinian deaths have been civilians undermines nearly every claim made by the apologists for the Israelis. The Israelis claim to be targeting military targets. Hamas makes the same claim. I don't think either of them should be believed, but look at the results: Israel has killed mostly civilians including a large number of children. Hamas has killed mostly soldiers -- in fact, killing only two civilians.

The Israeli tactics are based on a willingness to accept Palestinian civilian deaths. These tactics are implemented knowing that Palestinian civilians will be killed. These are not humane tactics and there can be no justification for them. That explains why nearly every defense of Israel relies on the dehumanization of the Palestinians.

In response to the original poster of this thread, I don't know who will stop Israel. Israel has a strongly-held belief in the effectiveness of military strength. But, in recent years, the limits of military might have become more obvious. Israel failed in its last invasion of Lebanon and it appears that Gaza is going a similar way. At some point, perhaps Israel will realize that force is not working for it it and will chose a different path. In that case, Israel will stop Israel .

The answer is that no one will stop Israel. They are in an existential conflict. Their enemies want the country to cease to exist. Given those circumstances, they aren't going to be influenced by the "International Community" either by those nations friendly or unfriendly to them.

Israel is not God. Part of the existential conflict is that Israelis will have to decide whether they can exist without Israel. Israelis have many friends but Israel has very few, and its main patron is increasingly sick of it.

That is my point. They don't care about international opinion. A significant percentage of their population is spending their days planning what to do in case they hear an air raid siren. Think about that in terms of this country. If millions of Americans were running to bomb shelters every day, you can bet that we would not give a crap about whether or not France, Russia, and Senegal were mad that we decided to demolish our enemy. Think about this...these people get rockets launched at them, every day. So no one is going to "stop" them from trying to destroy the rockets of their enemies, not the US, not the UN, and certainly not their enemies, who intentionally put those rockets in civilian populations.

The Hamas rockets are a nuisance that inflict virtually no casualties, but they are an unpleasant reminder to Israel that the Palestinians are not happy with their treatment at the hands of Israel. So they bomb the daylights out of Gaza and make life hell for the inhabitants of the West Bank, at the same time that most Israelis go about their lives largely undisturbed. They claim not to care about international opinion, but some day there may be internationally sanctioned air strikes on Israel just like there were on Belgrade when Serbia was hell-bent on destroying Kosovo. The rest of the world can isolate Israel, which exists at the pleasure of the Americans, and wipe it off the map if it does not change its ways.

Nuisance? The only reason the death tolls are not equal is Iron Dome, and if that ever fails, hundreds of people die.

Hamas might as well be shooting off fireworks on the beach, and both Hamas and Israel know that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:The last several posts have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. But, as so often happens, the defenders of Israel are simply justifying the killing of Palestinians civilians, especially children.

The disparity in the death toll and the fact that the vast majority of Palestinian deaths have been civilians undermines nearly every claim made by the apologists for the Israelis. The Israelis claim to be targeting military targets. Hamas makes the same claim. I don't think either of them should be believed, but look at the results: Israel has killed mostly civilians including a large number of children. Hamas has killed mostly soldiers -- in fact, killing only two civilians.

The Israeli tactics are based on a willingness to accept Palestinian civilian deaths. These tactics are implemented knowing that Palestinian civilians will be killed. These are not humane tactics and there can be no justification for them. That explains why nearly every defense of Israel relies on the dehumanization of the Palestinians.

In response to the original poster of this thread, I don't know who will stop Israel. Israel has a strongly-held belief in the effectiveness of military strength. But, in recent years, the limits of military might have become more obvious. Israel failed in its last invasion of Lebanon and it appears that Gaza is going a similar way. At some point, perhaps Israel will realize that force is not working for it it and will chose a different path. In that case, Israel will stop Israel .

The answer is that no one will stop Israel. They are in an existential conflict. Their enemies want the country to cease to exist. Given those circumstances, they aren't going to be influenced by the "International Community" either by those nations friendly or unfriendly to them.

Israel is not God. Part of the existential conflict is that Israelis will have to decide whether they can exist without Israel. Israelis have many friends but Israel has very few, and its main patron is increasingly sick of it.

That is my point. They don't care about international opinion. A significant percentage of their population is spending their days planning what to do in case they hear an air raid siren. Think about that in terms of this country. If millions of Americans were running to bomb shelters every day, you can bet that we would not give a crap about whether or not France, Russia, and Senegal were mad that we decided to demolish our enemy. Think about this...these people get rockets launched at them, every day. So no one is going to "stop" them from trying to destroy the rockets of their enemies, not the US, not the UN, and certainly not their enemies, who intentionally put those rockets in civilian populations.

The Hamas rockets are a nuisance that inflict virtually no casualties, but they are an unpleasant reminder to Israel that the Palestinians are not happy with their treatment at the hands of Israel. So they bomb the daylights out of Gaza and make life hell for the inhabitants of the West Bank, at the same time that most Israelis go about their lives largely undisturbed. They claim not to care about international opinion, but some day there may be internationally sanctioned air strikes on Israel just like there were on Belgrade when Serbia was hell-bent on destroying Kosovo. The rest of the world can isolate Israel, which exists at the pleasure of the Americans, and wipe it off the map if it does not change its ways.

Nuisance? The only reason the death tolls are not equal is Iron Dome, and if that ever fails, hundreds of people die.

Hamas might as well be shooting off fireworks on the beach, and both Hamas and Israel know that.

I your point of view to be interesting. I don't mean that in a patronizing way.

Do you think because Hamas is relatively ineffective at making war on Israel, the Israelis should somehow only respond in some sort of proportional way? I guess that is what you are saying.

I contend that if this situation was applied to the United States, people here would think much like Israelis do now. If both Mexico and Canada were governed by people who were sworn enemies of the US and then Buffalo NY and El Paso Texas occasionally got an IED, or a rocket launched at them, killing just a few people a month wouldn't the huge majority (over 90 %) of Americans advocate miltary action to completely annihilate those governments and force regime change? Heck, Buffalo and El Paso are not big cities. The country could "absorb" a few deaths in those towns from time to time.

On 9/11/01 we had two buildings knocked down and 4 airplanes hijacked. The country was just about unanimous in supporting our military action to overthrow the Taliban who was only indirectly responsible (becuase they harbored Al Qaeda).

Israel is not going to be swayed from demolishing Hamas rockets just because Hamas puts those rockets in civilian populations. It would be a dumb thing for them to be so swayed. It is apparently smart for Hamas to do this, as it obviously impacts the view point of lots of people like you.

[Anonymous]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/world/middleeast/faa-halts-us-flights-to-israel.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot

Seems risky for the FAA to allow flights by US airlines after 24 hours. Delta was practically at landing in Tel Aviv and turned around to Paris. I believe Tel Aviv is still bookable but that leg might be on Air France. The airlines suspended the routes before the FAA.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nuisance? The only reason the death tolls are not equal is Iron Dome, and if that ever fails, hundreds of people die.

No, that is not the only reason. That is not even one of the major reasons. Iron Dome is not actually effective:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-21/israels-iron-dome-weapons-expert-warns-of-major-flaws

What are the major reasons? Not being snarky, just honestly asking, so please don't flame away at me!

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nuisance? The only reason the death tolls are not equal is Iron Dome, and if that ever fails, hundreds of people die.

No, that is not the only reason. That is not even one of the major reasons. Iron Dome is not actually effective:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-21/israels-iron-dome-weapons-expert-warns-of-major-flaws

What are the major reasons? Not being snarky, just honestly asking, so please don't flame away at me!

Hamas claims that it is aiming at military targets. Take their claim for what it is worth, but there is some evidence to support it. Military targets are generally hardened and Israel is unlikely to report damage to them. So, it's hard to judge whether such targets are being hit. At any rate, soldiers aren't being killed because that would eventually be reported.

The rockets do not carry heavy payloads. So, even when they strike they don't have much impact. Also, as mentioned in the article, Israel has good air raid shelters and early-warning systems. So, the Israelis are able to take cover before rockets hit.

Hamas is definitely not a humanitarian organization and I wouldn't want to give that impression. But, from a purely practical viewpoint, killing a large number of Israeli civilians would harm its interests. The rockets serve the purpose of indicating defiance. After yesterday, the rockets apparently can be used to prevent flights in and out of Israel.

[Anonymous]

The Middle East does not want Israel to exist. What would the US do if the Middle East was trying to overtake our country so it could be run by Middle Eastern men who treat women and children like animals with no rights. Israel does not have the luxury of the US and Europe to have a do nothing attitude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:The last several posts have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. But, as so often happens, the defenders of Israel are simply justifying the killing of Palestinians civilians, especially children.

The disparity in the death toll and the fact that the vast majority of Palestinian deaths have been civilians undermines nearly every claim made by the apologists for the Israelis. The Israelis claim to be targeting military targets. Hamas makes the same claim. I don't think either of them should be believed, but look at the results: Israel has killed mostly civilians including a large number of children. Hamas has killed mostly soldiers -- in fact, killing only two civilians.

The Israeli tactics are based on a willingness to accept Palestinian civilian deaths. These tactics are implemented knowing that Palestinian civilians will be killed. These are not humane tactics and there can be no justification for them. That explains why nearly every defense of Israel relies on the dehumanization of the Palestinians.

In response to the original poster of this thread, I don't know who will stop Israel. Israel has a strongly-held belief in the effectiveness of military strength. But, in recent years, the limits of military might have become more obvious. Israel failed in its last invasion of Lebanon and it appears that Gaza is going a similar way. At some point, perhaps Israel will realize that force is not working for it it and will chose a different path. In that case, Israel will stop Israel .

The answer is that no one will stop Israel. They are in an existential conflict. Their enemies want the country to cease to exist. Given those circumstances, they aren't going to be influenced by the "International Community" either by those nations friendly or unfriendly to them.

Israel is not God. Part of the existential conflict is that Israelis will have to decide whether they can exist without Israel. Israelis have many friends but Israel has very few, and its main patron is increasingly sick of it.

That is my point. They don't care about international opinion. A significant percentage of their population is spending their days planning what to do in case they hear an air raid siren. Think about that in terms of this country. If millions of Americans were running to bomb shelters every day, you can bet that we would not give a crap about whether or not France, Russia, and Senegal were mad that we decided to demolish our enemy. Think about this...these people get rockets launched at them, every day. So no one is going to "stop" them from trying to destroy the rockets of their enemies, not the US, not the UN, and certainly not their enemies, who intentionally put those rockets in civilian populations.

The Hamas rockets are a nuisance that inflict virtually no casualties, but they are an unpleasant reminder to Israel that the Palestinians are not happy with their treatment at the hands of Israel. So they bomb the daylights out of Gaza and make life hell for the inhabitants of the West Bank, at the same time that most Israelis go about their lives largely undisturbed. They claim not to care about international opinion, but some day there may be internationally sanctioned air strikes on Israel just like there were on Belgrade when Serbia was hell-bent on destroying Kosovo. The rest of the world can isolate Israel, which exists at the pleasure of the Americans, and wipe it off the map if it does not change its ways.

Nuisance? The only reason the death tolls are not equal is Iron Dome, and if that ever fails, hundreds of people die.

Hamas might as well be shooting off fireworks on the beach, and both Hamas and Israel know that.

I your point of view to be interesting. I don't mean that in a patronizing way.

Do you think because Hamas is relatively ineffective at making war on Israel, the Israelis should somehow only respond in some sort of proportional way? I guess that is what you are saying.

I contend that if this situation was applied to the United States, people here would think much like Israelis do now. If both Mexico and Canada were governed by people who were sworn enemies of the US and then Buffalo NY and El Paso Texas occasionally got an IED, or a rocket launched at them, killing just a few people a month wouldn't the huge majority (over 90 %) of Americans advocate miltary action to completely annihilate those governments and force regime change? Heck, Buffalo and El Paso are not big cities. The country could "absorb" a few deaths in those towns from time to time.

On 9/11/01 we had two buildings knocked down and 4 airplanes hijacked. The country was just about unanimous in supporting our military action to overthrow the Taliban who was only indirectly responsible (becuase they harbored Al Qaeda).

Israel is not going to be swayed from demolishing Hamas rockets just because Hamas puts those rockets in civilian populations. It would be a dumb thing for them to be so swayed. It is apparently smart for Hamas to do this, as it obviously impacts the view point of lots of people like you.

NP. God, yes. I've always thought this -- we basically invaded two countries, killing how many thousands, because of a single terrorist strike. And yet the Israelis should be reacting more casually to rocket fire? The hypocrisy, it burns.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
NP. God, yes. I've always thought this -- we basically invaded two countries, killing how many thousands, because of a single terrorist strike. And yet the Israelis should be reacting more casually to rocket fire? The hypocrisy, it burns.

Looking back, do you believe that our reaction was correct? Do you believe that things are better now? Back then, al-Qaida was a small group in Afghanistan. Today, a group that split from al-Qaida because al-Qaida was too moderate controls large parts of Syria and Iraq. The Taliban may well be back in power before long in Afghanistan and the situation in Pakistan is much worse than before. If making things exponentially worse is your idea of how things should be done, I fear for the Middle East.

[Anonymous]

What would America do if Islamist terrorists lobbed rockets at civilian targets from across our border, or regularly tried to kidnap and murder our civilians?

I am sure half the Israel haters on this forum would be screaming for revenge if they had to put up with half of what Israelis do....

That said, to answer OPs question, "Who will stop Israel?" the answer is moderate Israelis, moderate Palestinians, and moderate Egyptians - they are the only ones who can create a better framework. This war is looking like a big mistake from the point of view of reducing the political and military power of Hamas, an Islamist terrorist group that does not want compromise. Israel's assault is playing into Hamas hands....sad

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is fine to talk about the gradual change of heart towards Israel, but what difference has it made to those being massacred in Palestine. The worlds sympathy is not enough. We need action. The world has been silent for too long. We all know about AIPAC and the US, what the hell is the matter with Europe and the UN?

[b]

1940's holocaust guilt.