Statistics Show an Ivy League Asian Quota

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the number of Asian college applicants doubled

And this number would include the international applicants, many of whom obtained their scores and grades via fraud, right?
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/chinese_students_in_america_why_do_they_even_bother.html

Unfortunately, it is quite possible that the reports of rampant cheating by Asian applicants has led to a backlash that extends to those who don't cheat.

Reports of cheating is mostly limited to Asians who are International Applicants and the total International Applicants typically make up approximately just 9 to 10% of the enrollment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the number of Asian college applicants doubled

And this number would include the international applicants, many of whom obtained their scores and grades via fraud, right?
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/chinese_students_in_america_why_do_they_even_bother.html

You are lumping Asian-Americans together with some applications from China, where there has been fraud discovered. That's like lumping African-Americans in with the Nigerian internet scammers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the number of Asian college applicants doubled

And this number would include the international applicants, many of whom obtained their scores and grades via fraud, right?
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/chinese_students_in_america_why_do_they_even_bother.html

You are lumping Asian-Americans together with some applications from China, where there has been fraud discovered. That's like lumping African-Americans in with the Nigerian internet scammers.

Asian-American kids cannot account for doubling the number of applications. It has to be the internationals.
Fraud is not limited to China - remember the SAT cancellation scandal in South Korea? And it is not limited to Asia, either, but Asia supplies the most international applicants to US colleges.

[Anonymous]

There would only pretty much be Jews and Asians if it weren't for the quotas. And it would be mostly immigrant Asians or children of immigrant Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There would only pretty much be Jews and Asians if it weren't for the quotas. And it would be mostly immigrant Asians or children of immigrant Asians.

That would be one way to end big time college athletics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There would only pretty much be Jews and Asians if it weren't for the quotas. And it would be mostly immigrant Asians or children of immigrant Asians.

That would be one way to end big time college athletics.

LOL. But Ivies really aren't known for their athletic programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There would only pretty much be Jews and Asians if it weren't for the quotas. And it would be mostly immigrant Asians or children of immigrant Asians.

Sorry, no. You have a bizarrely racist view of achievement. If that were true, then you would see the top of the Ivy classes be all Asians and Jews. It's not. Sure, there are plenty of both, but there are also plenty of others as well. (Signed, unhooked, non-Jewish white girl who got in everywhere, excelled, got in everywhere for grad school, excelled there too.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the number of Asian college applicants doubled

And this number would include the international applicants, many of whom obtained their scores and grades via fraud, right?
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/chinese_students_in_america_why_do_they_even_bother.html

You are lumping Asian-Americans together with some applications from China, where there has been fraud discovered. That's like lumping African-Americans in with the Nigerian internet scammers.

Asian-American kids cannot account for doubling the number of applications. It has to be the internationals.
Fraud is not limited to China - remember the SAT cancellation scandal in South Korea? And it is not limited to Asia, either, but Asia supplies the most international applicants to US colleges.

Fraud is not limited to Asians. Remember the SAT scandal in New York state where kids were paid to take the SAT test for someone else. This involved more than few kids and led to the SAT cracking down on security. This was mostly if not all white kids. Remember the Harvard cheating scandal that involved hundreds of students? Mostly if not all non-Asians. Remember the ex-Harvard student who fabricated the HS transcript to get into Harvard? That wasn't Asian. There are many examples of cheating by non-Asians as well. Asians don't have monopoly on cheating.
International applications do not account for doubling of Asian applications. That is mostly due to increased Asian Americans applying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There would only pretty much be Jews and Asians if it weren't for the quotas. And it would be mostly immigrant Asians or children of immigrant Asians.

Sorry, no. You have a bizarrely racist view of achievement. If that were true, then you would see the top of the Ivy classes be all Asians and Jews. It's not. Sure, there are plenty of both, but there are also plenty of others as well. (Signed, unhooked, non-Jewish white girl who got in everywhere, excelled, got in everywhere for grad school, excelled there too.)

Are you Dutch, German or Polish? They have comparably high IQs according to his: http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/05/18/who-are-the-smartest-white-europeans/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the number of Asian college applicants doubled

And this number would include the international applicants, many of whom obtained their scores and grades via fraud, right?
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/chinese_students_in_america_why_do_they_even_bother.html

You are lumping Asian-Americans together with some applications from China, where there has been fraud discovered. That's like lumping African-Americans in with the Nigerian internet scammers.

Asian-American kids cannot account for doubling the number of applications. It has to be the internationals.
Fraud is not limited to China - remember the SAT cancellation scandal in South Korea? And it is not limited to Asia, either, but Asia supplies the most international applicants to US colleges.

Fraud is not limited to Asians. Remember the SAT scandal in New York state where kids were paid to take the SAT test for someone else. This involved more than few kids and led to the SAT cracking down on security. This was mostly if not all white kids. Remember the Harvard cheating scandal that involved hundreds of students? Mostly if not all non-Asians. Remember the ex-Harvard student who fabricated the HS transcript to get into Harvard? That wasn't Asian. There are many examples of cheating by non-Asians as well. Asians don't have monopoly on cheating.
International applications do not account for doubling of Asian applications. That is mostly due to increased Asian Americans applying.

The Harvard cheating scandal involved a disproportionate number of Asians.

It's true that cheating is limited to Asian cultured, but I don't think there is another culture that thinks there is a right to cheat.

[Anonymous]

Is it that they think they have a right to cheat or that they will lose against so many others who cheat? Kinda like using steroids in professional sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the number of Asian college applicants doubled

And this number would include the international applicants, many of whom obtained their scores and grades via fraud, right?
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/chinese_students_in_america_why_do_they_even_bother.html

You are lumping Asian-Americans together with some applications from China, where there has been fraud discovered. That's like lumping African-Americans in with the Nigerian internet scammers.

Asian-American kids cannot account for doubling the number of applications. It has to be the internationals.
Fraud is not limited to China - remember the SAT cancellation scandal in South Korea? And it is not limited to Asia, either, but Asia supplies the most international applicants to US colleges.

Fraud is not limited to Asians. Remember the SAT scandal in New York state where kids were paid to take the SAT test for someone else. This involved more than few kids and led to the SAT cracking down on security. This was mostly if not all white kids. Remember the Harvard cheating scandal that involved hundreds of students? Mostly if not all non-Asians. Remember the ex-Harvard student who fabricated the HS transcript to get into Harvard? That wasn't Asian. There are many examples of cheating by non-Asians as well. Asians don't have monopoly on cheating.
International applications do not account for doubling of Asian applications. That is mostly due to increased Asian Americans applying.

The Harvard cheating scandal involved a disproportionate number of Asians.

It's true that cheating is limited to Asian cultured, but I don't think there is another culture that thinks there is a right to cheat.

Description of students involved in Harvard cheating scandal:

"It was a heavy blow to sports programs, because the class drew a large number of varsity athletes, some of them on the basketball team. Two players accused of cheating withdrew in September rather than risk losing a year of athletic eligibility on a season that disciplinary action could cut short."

"According to estimates by students, over half the class and up to half of those suspected are athletes"

I don't think it's reasonable to say the cheating scandal involved "disproportionate number of Asians" given some of the descriptions of the students involved.

Asian culture does not think "there is a right to cheat". You may be confusing Asian culture with wall street bankers and politicians.

[Anonymous]

From the article linked in the thread on cheating:

"I picked up my son at midday [from his exam]. He started crying. I asked him what was up and he said a teacher had frisked his body and taken his mobile phone from his underwear. I was furious and I asked him if he could identify the teacher. I said we should go back and find him," one of the protesting fathers, named as Mr Yin, said to the police later.

By late afternoon, the invigilators were trapped in a set of school offices, as groups of students pelted the windows with rocks. Outside, an angry mob of more than 2,000 people had gathered to vent its rage, smashing cars and chanting: "We want fairness. There is no fairness if you do not let us cheat."

[Anonymous]

Speaking of "bizarrely racist." The big mistake some of you are making is defining "achievement" and "intelligence" as high GPA and SAT scores.

First, we all know that neither SAT scores and GPAs is a measure of pure intelligence. Both can be improved by study and practice. If SAT study prep can raise scores by 100-300 points, then many of those 2350s were 2100 kids with parents who could afford the prep classes and who stayed on their butts to make them memorize vocab words. Very different from "genius."

Second, the top colleges get 20,000 applicants who have near-perfect SATs and GPAs. In fact, if they wanted, they could fill their 3,000 slots with WASPS with near-perfect SATs and GPAs. But colleges don't fill their classes with high-scoring WASPS. However, they do need to look for additional things to whittle this pile down to 3,000 admits. Also, they don't want classes full of boring grinds whose main accomplishment is to be able to sit at a chair and study for hours every day. This is why kids need something more than near-perfect SATs and GPAs, and why colleges look for artistic creativity and leadership. This point has been made a million times on DCUM, yet some of you simply cannot grasp it.

Again, the mere ability to plant your butt at a desk and study for four years of high school is not the correct definition of "intelligence" because it's more a measure of hard work than intelligence. Nor does it does this create some sort of "entitlement" to Harvard admission for each and every one of the 20,000 kids who has managed to earn high scores, because Harvard simply doesn't have enough places. How hard is this to understand?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Data backs up quota on Asians at the Ivy League Universities. It's ironic that Jews make up 25 to 40% of Ivy League schools (at 2% of the US population) while Asians are limited to 16% of Ivy League schools (at 6 to 7% of the US population) especially when the number of Asian college applicants doubled when the % at Ivy schools decreased from 20% to 16% :

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/19/fears-of-an-asian-quota-in-the-ivy-league/statistics-indicate-an-ivy-league-asian-quota

Aren't quotas based on race wrong and immoral? Isn't that why the Jewish quotas at Ivys were eliminated?

Uh, hon, those numbers don't say what you think they say. They say Asians and Jews are overrepresented in Ivies. Yes, they say that Jews are MORE overrepresented, but that doesn't mean there's a quota limiting Asian admits. BY your logic, there' s a quota limiting Hispanics, Blacks, and whites. But no one thinks that.

Agree. There's only a "quota" if you start with the assumption that Asians deserve to be [b]even more[/b] over-represented, relative to the general population, than they already are at the Ivies. I know some of you actually believe this assumption, and you base it on Asians' high GPAs and SATs. It's definitely debatable, though. Today, everybody who applies to the Ivies has high SATs and GPAs, so the Ivies are looking for something more, something to break the statistical ties among the applicants, in the form of future leaders and kids with "passions" (forget the "well-rounded" comment above). High test scores and grades don't entitle anyone, of any race or ethnicity, to Ivy admission. But we've debated this endlessly on DCUM, so dig out one of the old threads, probably started by this very same OP.

I've been a Harvard interviewer for a while. Harva rd wants successful alums. That's their goal. They have no conception that anyone deserves to be there, certainly not based on test scores. There is a margin of error on tests like the SAT, so at the highest levels , 40 point differences in scores are statistically meaningless. They want people who will accomplish things. That's why they look for leadership skills, evidence of commitment, and initiative.

If you take people who are 750+ on all parts of the SAT, 3.9 unweighted GPA, and 3+ grades of 5 on AP tests taken as a junior, that gets you into the top 30% of the applicant pool. Harvard onlybhas enough freshman beds for 1/5 the of that group. So how do they choose? Do they use minute test score distinctions that are meaningless at the top levels, or do they use criteria that get them the go-getters who will build their reputation and endowment? The answer as far as they are concerned, is obvious. I don't want to suggest that this bald self interest is ethical, but their criteria meet their goals quite well.