Seeking advice on Biglaw from lawyers: I'm below median at a T-30 school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are not going to get hired at a big law firm any time in the next three years. Even if you are a brilliant networker and incredibly tenacious and have a million good intangibles, it is just not going to happen. Big firms are rigid and follow strict rules. Even a stellar recommendation from a current partner at the firm is probably not enough. They're THAT rigid about grading cutoffs.

Yes, you've heard a story about a person who managed to get through the door through a connection. What you're not hearing is that when this person said her grades were bad, she meant "I was top 1/3rd, not top 10%" And she's also not mentioning that she wrote onto law review, is a minority female, and sat for the patent bar while she was working as a paralegal at that firm.

I am not saying this to be negative, but because I think it will help you prioritize your time. Do not spend time trying to get a job at a big law firm. Try to get a job somewhere else. Get a job where you worked. Or at a small firm. Or in a state DA’s office.

Then, work at that job and do a really dang good job. Try to work on subject matter that is hot, like intellectual property, healthcare law, etc. Get as much real world experience as possible. Do this for 2-3 years and then revisit where you want to end up.

At that point, I think there’s a good chance you’ll no longer want to be in a big firm. But suppose you do. Now you have some options:

1. Let’s say you went to a small firm and managed to take several dozen depositions in an IP case. Well, now a big firm with an immediate need might hire you as a mid-level associate.

2. Let’s say your went to a DA’s office, they love you, and you’ve got a ton of trial experience. Perhaps if you stay a few more years you will be promoted to a senior or deputy position. Then maybe you can come into a firm as a senior associate or counsel, prove your worth, and make counsel.

3. Let’s say you go to a government agency. You do a great job, get repeatedly promoted, and eventually become the Chief of Enforcement. Now a firm would love to have you as a partner.

4. Back at the small firm route again, you become a partner years before your classmates at big firms. You first chair a major trial against a big firm. (Your classmates who did better than you in law school watch from the galleys awaiting instructions from the trial team). You win the trial and get a reputation as an excellent trial attorney. A big firm offers you a partnership position.

5. You’re at any of these jobs and you network and remain politically active. A friend runs for the House of Representatives. You work hard on the campaign and he wins. He helps you get a political appointment at an agency. You work there until the President changes, and then lateral into a firm as partner.

There are still a lot of ways you can end up in big law, if that’s what you want. But note that: (1) all of them start with working hard and being good at some other job; and (2) none of them are going to happen in the next couple years.

Wishing you the best of luck. And if you work hard and network, that luck will eventually show up.

THIS. THIS. THIS.

No need for me to add anything more. Read THIS and take it to heart. And DO NOT try to stalk hiring partners. You will be removed by security. At least at my old firm, they would have had you escorted out.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

I agree with this too.

I take one step back and question OP's premise of why you feel you want to or have to go to BigLaw. If you have good reasons, so be it. But after 20 yrs. as a senior manager in a federal enforcement agency, I've seen hundreds of BigLaw associates, counsel & partners applying for staff attorney positions because they want out of the BigLaw rat race.

I've worked in non-profits, private practice and govt., so have some perspective on each. Don't limit yourself (IMO) to BigLaw and your options multiply. If it happens down the line and that's what you want, fine.

My experience is probably not too relevant now because I've been at it a long time but I was Top 35% at a T-20/T-30 law school and was a Moot Court Director. Started with 2 yrs. trial experience as a public defender, then 3 yrs. appellate experience at another well regarded public defender firm. Tried 30 cases and argued 40 appeals (state appellate and supreme court and cert. petitions @ U.S. Supreme Ct.) in my first 5 years of practice, which was leverage to a medium sized private firm (civil litigation and appeals in state & fed courts). From there, a staff attorney position in OGC at a well known fed. agency. In 3 yrs. thanks to case work there got a supervisory position and was a manager for 23 yrs. including sr. management of a 340-person office with nationwide presence.

I don't know if in today's legal climate, that's a workable path, but it is part of what the PP who gave such good advice describes as an option. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need to think of a long game. You may want to end up in DC or NY, but try starting in another mid-sized city. You will have a better shot at getting into a better firm. P
Is bar associations in smaller markets are more active and permit you to actually network. Then, after a year or two at that firm, apply for a federal clerkship. You will the. Be on a better position to move to a large law firm.

I don't really think this is sound advice. First, I think it's a common mistake to think it's easier to get into big law outside of NYC and DC. I started my practice in Atlanta and people from NY and DC would often imply it was easier to get a job at a top Atl for than a top DC firm. But basic logic doesn't bear that out. If you want to work at a top 50 firm in NY, something like 46 have an office there. In DC, it is something like 48. If you want to work at a top 50 firm in Atlanta, you have precisely one firm that can give you a job. There are more lawyers in NY than Atlanta, but nowhere near 46 times as many. The top firms can be insanely selective. Second, the federal clerkship thing seems like a pipe dream. Less than 50% of big law associates could obtain a Federal clerkship, so the idea of using a clerkship to get into big law doesn't really make much sense. It's like saying "if you want to be partner at a mid-size firm, you should become a partner at Cravath because then a ton of mid-size firms will hire you." That's true, but it's not really a helpful strategy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to think of a long game. You may want to end up in DC or NY, but try starting in another mid-sized city. You will have a better shot at getting into a better firm. P
Is bar associations in smaller markets are more active and permit you to actually network. Then, after a year or two at that firm, apply for a federal clerkship. You will the. Be on a better position to move to a large law firm.

I don't really think this is sound advice. First, I think it's a common mistake to think it's easier to get into big law outside of NYC and DC. I started my practice in Atlanta and people from NY and DC would often imply it was easier to get a job at a top Atl for than a top DC firm. But basic logic doesn't bear that out. If you want to work at a top 50 firm in NY, something like 46 have an office there. In DC, it is something like 48. If you want to work at a top 50 firm in Atlanta, you have precisely one firm that can give you a job. There are more lawyers in NY than Atlanta, but nowhere near 46 times as many. The top firms can be insanely selective. Second, the federal clerkship thing seems like a pipe dream. Less than 50% of big law associates could obtain a Federal clerkship, so the idea of using a clerkship to get into big law doesn't really make much sense. It's like saying "if you want to be partner at a mid-size firm, you should become a partner at Cravath because then a ton of mid-size firms will hire you." That's true, but it's not really a helpful strategy.

Well it did work for me. (Sorry for the typos in the earlier post). Memphis to DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First of all, I know my chances are tiny/non-existent bar a miracle or something, but I also know of several people in my exact same position who got Biglaw job offers in DC, VA, and NYC.

First of all, I have a scholarship to a school in the 20-30 range of rankings, so luckily I am not buried in debt up to my eyeballs. However, I sucked at issue-spotter exams and ended up with a GPA below the median for my law school's curve. My undergraduate major was in the liberal arts and I don't have significant work experience prior to law school. However, I have been working at a small firm all semester (I'm a 3L now) and have racked up some litigation experience from the summer, and I'm generally tenacious and bright and hard-working. I think at this point, a firm job will only come from networking though.

Any advice? What unconventional methods have you tried or have you heard of? I'm willing to pound the pavement and give it all I've got to get myself a job before graduation, but so far I think I have wasted effort by not using my time wisely. And if I don't change my approach to job-hunting, I'm only going to get the same results that I've been getting so far, which is nothing haha. So I no longer think the tailored mass mails/spamming every state in America is going to help. I need to build personal connections.

Here are some ideas I had:

1) Spend the next few months (i.e. all of spring semester) showing up at firms personally with my application materials, in a suit, and requesting to talk to the hiring partner. They will likely either put me off, or tell me flat out no. I should ignore that and continue to show up personally once a week and reiterate my interest face-to-face. I should follow that weekly stalking visit up with phone calls/emails every week, basically harassing them but politely.
2) Find a recruiting agency for law students? Haven't had any luck with this so far, so suggestions welcome.

3) Find out if there are any particularly influential and important individuals in my home market (DC) or desired market (NYC) who are plugged into the legal community and have substantial influence, and meet them? But the problem with this is, 1) how the hell do I find these people and 2) how would I make them want to help me?

Already tried asking my professors - a couple of them liked me and tried, but all of their contacts have retired and don't have much pull.

PLEASE give whatever suggestions/advice you can. Please don't reply to this thread if you want to criticize my decision to go to law school, or my exam-taking skills, or if you want to tell me I'm fucked. Only reply if you have something constructive to add - if not, read another thread and have a nice day! Thanks!

really, do not do that unless you want to make sure you are labeled as a nut case who has no clue about the world, and never have the possibility to get a job in a law firm in DC ( and maybe getting a restraining order against you - great for your DC Bar application) . hiring partners at BigLaw are very busy people who also find time to interview people who have already been selected among a lot of students through a specific hiring process. Big law firms hire their first year associate only through the summer associate program (I work for one, we already know who the first year associates are for next year, they have already been hired). in recent years, the number of first year associate has really decreased (we had 18-20 ten years ago with two offices, now with 4 offices we have around 10). in my practice the last first year was hired 4 years ago. firms tend to hire laterally now, first year are expensive and clients more and more do not want them on their matters. unless you have special skills (patent attorney with PHD in some science, adjunct professor at Johns Hopkins and so on) it is going to be hard to get a job at BigLaw if you already do not have an offer. so put the stalking aside, and follow other very good advice you got in this thread, including networking, trying to get a job at your current firm and then work hard and shine. depending on the field you chose, working for the government can also be useful to later go into private practice. it's a very tough and competitive world.

[Anonymous]

Let’s say your went to a DA’s office, they love you, and you’ve got a ton of trial experience. Perhaps if you stay a few more years you will be promoted to a senior or deputy position. Then maybe you can come into a firm as a senior associate or counsel, prove your worth, and make counsel.

When I graduated, which was admittedly 7 years ago, I could not get a job at a DA's office to save my life, though I did get offers from top 50 firms, and a federal clerkship after I worked at one of said firms for a year and hated it. It was truly disheartening since I went to law school with the aspiration of becoming a DA, and interned at the DA's office during school. No offices in the multiple cites I applied in were hiring. I'm not sure this is necessarily an easier path than a firm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a couple of people who went to work at small firms, worked hard and made an impression on the legal community where they worked. They traded their jobs at small firms for BigLaw jobs based on their work out of law school. Both of them are partners at their firms now.

I did this. I graduated around median from a T50 (although I was on law review -- I was just lazy and didn't care much about my grades). I worked for a solo who did management-side labor and employment. I got all kinds of great experience and now work at one of the national L&E firms. I think this is probably the only realistic way OP can eventually wind up at a big firm, because s/he isn't getting an offer with those grades from a T30.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Let’s say your went to a DA’s office, they love you, and you’ve got a ton of trial experience. Perhaps if you stay a few more years you will be promoted to a senior or deputy position. Then maybe you can come into a firm as a senior associate or counsel, prove your worth, and make counsel.

When I graduated, which was admittedly 7 years ago, I could not get a job at a DA's office to save my life, though I did get offers from top 50 firms, and a federal clerkship after I worked at one of said firms for a year and hated it. It was truly disheartening since I went to law school with the aspiration of becoming a DA, and interned at the DA's office during school. No offices in the multiple cites I applied in were hiring. I'm not sure this is necessarily an easier path than a firm.

I did not mean to make it sound like getting a job at a DA was a piece of cake. I do think that in a lot of regions of the country it is less grade sensitive than are firms or federal judges (not because its easier, but because the office cares more about characteristics other than class rank). So it is plausible to me that with the right background, someone who has no shot at a large firm job could be a plausible candidate at a DA's office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Let’s say your went to a DA’s office, they love you, and you’ve got a ton of trial experience. Perhaps if you stay a few more years you will be promoted to a senior or deputy position. Then maybe you can come into a firm as a senior associate or counsel, prove your worth, and make counsel.

When I graduated, which was admittedly 7 years ago, I could not get a job at a DA's office to save my life, though I did get offers from top 50 firms, and a federal clerkship after I worked at one of said firms for a year and hated it. It was truly disheartening since I went to law school with the aspiration of becoming a DA, and interned at the DA's office during school. No offices in the multiple cites I applied in were hiring. I'm not sure this is necessarily an easier path than a firm.

I did not mean to make it sound like getting a job at a DA was a piece of cake. I do think that in a lot of regions of the country it is less grade sensitive than are firms or federal judges (not because its easier, but because the office cares more about characteristics other than class rank). So it is plausible to me that with the right background, someone who has no shot at a large firm job could be a plausible candidate at a DA's office.

your advice is excellent; however the OP just doesn't seem to be anything special.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do not stalk law firms in person. I am the legal secretary to the managing partner in charge of recruiting. He would never meet with you if you cold-called. If you tried to wait hours in our reception area, that would be stupidly a waste of your time, but fine. If you started trying to network with professionals also in the reception area, we would have Security remove you.

Reach out to headhunters, and accept that getting where you want to be may be a two or three year process.

Please don't weigh in.

actually, as the secretary of the hiring partner, she can weigh in very well on OP's plan to get a job by trying to meet that partner. where does your snarky comment come from?

[Anonymous]

Let’s say your went to a DA’s office, they love you, and you’ve got a ton of trial experience. Perhaps if you stay a few more years you will be promoted to a senior or deputy position. Then maybe you can come into a firm as a senior associate or counsel, prove your worth, and make counsel.


When I graduated, which was admittedly 7 years ago, I could not get a job at a DA's office to save my life, though I did get offers from top 50 firms, and a federal clerkship after I worked at one of said firms for a year and hated it. It was truly disheartening since I went to law school with the aspiration of becoming a DA, and interned at the DA's office during school. No offices in the multiple cites I applied in were hiring. I'm not sure this is necessarily an easier path than a firm.


I did not mean to make it sound like getting a job at a DA was a piece of cake. I do think that in a lot of regions of the country it is less grade sensitive than are firms or federal judges (not because its easier, but because the office cares more about characteristics other than class rank). So it is plausible to me that with the right background, someone who has no shot at a large firm job could be a plausible candidate at a DA's office.

That's fair - e.g., maybe someone who won the moot court competition but didn't have the very tippy top grades would be considered by the DA but not a large firm. I personally found it a lot tougher than getting a firm job, but maybe they were just looking for something different than firms were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

1) Spend the next few months (i.e. all of spring semester) showing up at firms personally with my application materials, in a suit, and requesting to talk to the hiring partner. They will likely either put me off, or tell me flat out no. I should ignore that and continue to show up personally once a week and reiterate my interest face-to-face. I should follow that weekly stalking visit up with phone calls/emails every week, basically harassing them but politely

This is an insane plan. A better idea would be to look for people who graduated from your law school, are at a firm, and are relatively junior. Reach out and ask them if they would be willing to meet for coffee to talk about how they found their position and any advice they may have.

I am in charge of hiring at a place where lots of young lawyers want to work. This is less crazy than the stalking idea, but I have to say that, if I met with everyone who asked me for an "informational" interview, I would never get any work done. I love helping young people find jobs, and used to do this with pretty much anyone who asked, but, as the job market has gotten worse, the number of requests is just out of hand. OP needs to understand that even this may be annoying to those he/she will ask. The bottom line is that there are lots of highly qualified lawyers with experience who are looking for work. I really can't tell someone who is fresh out of school how to compete with those people, because they can't. My advice is the same that I give to those who call me -- take any job/internship you can get that is remotely close to the field you want to be in, and do the very best job you can, and hope you impress someone.

[Anonymous]

Not sure why big law is so attractive. It's really grueling and most new associates leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
your advice is excellent; however the OP just doesn't seem to be anything special.

NP here- Is it just me or is the DCUM holiday spirit particularly nasty? What necessitated this statement? You just wanted to put down a complete stranger?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
your advice is excellent; however the OP just doesn't seem to be anything special.

NP here- Is it just me or is the DCUM holiday spirit particularly nasty? What necessitated this statement? You just wanted to put down a complete stranger?

The statement is necessitated by the fact that his ambitions are sky high while he has no notable accomplishments whatsoever. He needs to forget about Big Law and think whether he can get a job, any job.

[Anonymous]

I don't want to make you feel discouraged, but I am on the Legal Honors hiring committee for a federal agency (and not one of the popular ones like DOJ or State). It has been years since we hired anyone with below median grades. We get such a high quality applicant pool that we are able to hire new attorneys from top schools with top grades, law review/moot court and usually some kind of relevant work experience. I don't think you're going to have the luxury of being picky in this legal market.