Racial make up in honors vs. non-honors classes

[Anonymous]

Nobody is saying that schools should fill AP classes with unintelligent kids.

The question is why is an intelligent kid not in an AP class and why does it happen more often to certain groups.

There are many studies about this. The assumption that a black or Hispanic kid in a diverse school probably does not have support at home is erroneous a lot of the time. But it is true enough times that it becomes true for all students.

The belief that an active boy probably has ADHD is not often true.
The belief that a LD kid learns slower is wrong much of the time.

But even on this small thread that assumption has been made on other posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nobody is saying that schools should fill AP classes with unintelligent kids.

The question is why is an intelligent kid not in an AP class and why does it happen more often to certain groups.

There are many studies about this. The assumption that a black or Hispanic kid in a diverse school probably does not have support at home is erroneous a lot of the time. But it is true enough times that it becomes true for all students.

The belief that an active boy probably has ADHD is not often true.
The belief that a LD kid learns slower is wrong much of the time.

But even on this small thread that assumption has been made on other posts.

I am the PP that said it was a preschool prepration issue.I made that assumption that there is a lack of involvement (not out of a lack of concern) because that was my experience with my parents. WHile they stressed the imporatnce of school, books were not very available in my house, they didnt' know to assist me with my homework, didn't think to check whether I was falling behind in any subject because they had no frame of reference. If I had done poorly in school it fell squarely on my shoulders and I would also lack a frame of reference to guide my children.



BTW, my DH was in AP in Montgomery County in the 90's. He is AA and told me there were only two or three others with him and that it was difficult once he got separated from all his friends and placed in AP. So maybe peer pressure might be a factor as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody is saying that schools should fill AP classes with unintelligent kids.

The question is why is an intelligent kid not in an AP class and why does it happen more often to certain groups.

There are many studies about this. The assumption that a black or Hispanic kid in a diverse school probably does not have support at home is erroneous a lot of the time. But it is true enough times that it becomes true for all students.

The belief that an active boy probably has ADHD is not often true.
The belief that a LD kid learns slower is wrong much of the time.

But even on this small thread that assumption has been made on other posts.

I am the PP that said it was a preschool prepration issue.I made that assumption that there is a lack of involvement (not out of a lack of concern) because that was my experience with my parents. WHile they stressed the imporatnce of school, books were not very available in my house, they didnt' know to assist me with my homework, didn't think to check whether I was falling behind in any subject because they had no frame of reference. If I had done poorly in school it fell squarely on my shoulders and I would also lack a frame of reference to guide my children.



BTW, my DH was in AP in Montgomery County in the 90's. He is AA and told me there were only two or three others with him and that it was difficult once he got separated from all his friends and placed in AP. So maybe peer pressure might be a factor as well.

I know the per pressure to NOT be smart is documented in middle school girls. So it is logical it could be true for other groups.

Also you stated the teachers were saying how well behaved you child is, do they say that to every parent of a well behaved white kid or were they surprised and had to point it out? It's good though because teachers will tell future teachers he is a good student.

On the other hand, if a kid has a bad year, that reputation can stay with him for years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody is saying that schools should fill AP classes with unintelligent kids.

The question is why is an intelligent kid not in an AP class and why does it happen more often to certain groups.

There are many studies about this. The assumption that a black or Hispanic kid in a diverse school probably does not have support at home is erroneous a lot of the time. But it is true enough times that it becomes true for all students.

The belief that an active boy probably has ADHD is not often true.
The belief that a LD kid learns slower is wrong much of the time.

But even on this small thread that assumption has been made on other posts.

I am the PP that said it was a preschool prepration issue.I made that assumption that there is a lack of involvement (not out of a lack of concern) because that was my experience with my parents. WHile they stressed the imporatnce of school, books were not very available in my house, they didnt' know to assist me with my homework, didn't think to check whether I was falling behind in any subject because they had no frame of reference. If I had done poorly in school it fell squarely on my shoulders and I would also lack a frame of reference to guide my children.



BTW, my DH was in AP in Montgomery County in the 90's. He is AA and told me there were only two or three others with him and that it was difficult once he got separated from all his friends and placed in AP. So maybe peer pressure might be a factor as well.

I know the per pressure to NOT be smart is documented in middle school girls. So it is logical it could be true for other groups.

Also you stated the teachers were saying how well behaved you child is, do they say that to every parent of a well behaved white kid or were they surprised and had to point it out? It's good though because teachers will tell future teachers he is a good student.

On the other hand, if a kid has a bad year, that reputation can stay with him for years.

??? You are confusing two different people. I never said that my child is well behaved. That was the other lady who's kid just started. My kid is like less than 2. I posted below her

[Anonymous]

PP here - I posted at 10:27 saying you can't start in kindergarten to prepare because you would already be behind.

[Anonymous]

If you are a minority parent and are concerned enough about your childs education to be on here, your child is not the reason for the racial education gap.

[Anonymous]

In the early days of the Industrial Revolution the United States Government wanted to know why Jewish and Chinese immigrant children were educationally outpacing their Irish and Italian counterparts. These four ethnic groups were on par financially and equally endured the racist disdain of the majority. the determining factor was the value placed on education by the particular ethnic group as a whole. It is the same today. If the culture in which you live values education it will be the priority. The key to closing the educational gap lies in changing cultural priorities not changing education. If an individual wants to improve their station in life they are going to do so by whatever means they feel is the most effective for their particular situation. If talent is respected more than intellect, in my sphere, I will put my energy into cultivating whatever talent I may possess and exploit it to whatever advantage gains that respect. likewise, for the adverse.

[Anonymous]

If there are only 4 other minorities in your son's on-level classes, then I suspect you simply aren't in a very diverse school to begin with.

What's the racial breakdown at the school?

You do realize that not all students are in honors, right? So the racial breakdown overall at the school will impact how many minority students are in honors. And if there are only 4 or 5 minorities in the on level classes, the 1 in the honors class is probably statistically the norm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My African American son takes 3 "on level" classes (including PE and an arts class) and 4 "advanced" classes at our local, majority white, middle school. At back to school night this week, I was pleased to see other AA parents in the halls, and in the lunch room. His first period class, one of the on level ones, had a number of other black parents. But when we went to Advanced English, or History, for example, every face in the room was white. I came home and asked him, and he confirmed. In each of his accelerated classes he was either the only, or one of two black kids. In his on level classes there were between 4 and 6 black kids total.

This same pattern existed last year. I'm curious whether other parents are noticing the same patterns in their kids' classes and how they talk about it with their children.

Stunned that I am the only one that noticed this so far. You state your son is in middle school in MCPS. If you think the Advanced English and Advanced World Studies are actually advanced you need to wake up the the MCPS class naming sham. There are middle schools that only offer the Advanced classes. Yes, 800 kids and every single kid that happens to live in that area year after year - they are all Advanced. It's a joke. I am assuming the other two classes you are claiming as advanced are the math class and the foreign language. As to those talk to people in other states, what is advanced for MCPS is average pace for schools in PA and NY.

Seperately, the issue of not having many AA in his classes it might be one of the following: not many AA in the school, random distribution of kids for scheduling or an effort to balance the diversity among the classrooms. And yes, I agree all schools need to focus on identifying smart AA kids. That said, I urge you to meet with the school to discuss how really Advanced the Advanced World Studies and Advanced English classes actually are as you will find its not a true honors class.

[Anonymous]

My older DD attended MCPS from K-12. She was identified as GT in 1st. We identify as AA and are lower MC.
Quickly it became apparent that she would be either the only AA or one of two in her GT classes. This held true for MS and HS as well as she took Honors, Advanced MCPS curriculum, and AP classes. There were social difficulties that resulted.

This is part of the reason why my younger DD attends a small private school. All students take a rigorous curriculum. Her classmates are more racially and socioeconomically diverse than her sister's were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My African American son takes 3 "on level" classes (including PE and an arts class) and 4 "advanced" classes at our local, majority white, middle school. At back to school night this week, I was pleased to see other AA parents in the halls, and in the lunch room. His first period class, one of the on level ones, had a number of other black parents. But when we went to Advanced English, or History, for example, every face in the room was white. I came home and asked him, and he confirmed. In each of his accelerated classes he was either the only, or one of two black kids. In his on level classes there were between 4 and 6 black kids total.

This same pattern existed last year. I'm curious whether other parents are noticing the same patterns in their kids' classes and how they talk about it with their children.

Stunned that I am the only one that noticed this so far. You state your son is in middle school in MCPS. If you think the Advanced English and Advanced World Studies are actually advanced you need to wake up the the MCPS class naming sham. There are middle schools that only offer the Advanced classes. Yes, 800 kids and every single kid that happens to live in that area year after year - they are all Advanced. It's a joke. I am assuming the other two classes you are claiming as advanced are the math class and the foreign language. As to those talk to people in other states, what is advanced for MCPS is average pace for schools in PA and NY.

Seperately, the issue of not having many AA in his classes it might be one of the following: not many AA in the school, random distribution of kids for scheduling or an effort to balance the diversity among the classrooms. And yes, I agree all schools need to focus on identifying smart AA kids. That said, I urge you to meet with the school to discuss how really Advanced the Advanced World Studies and Advanced English classes actually are as you will find its not a true honors class.

They are not meant to be traditional "Honors" classes. They are meant to introduce MS students to advanced academic skills in those subject areas. In other words, the curriculum NOT THE CHILD is advanced in these courses. This is why some schools in the name of equity have decided to only offer the Advanced version of the courses.
--MCPS teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My African American son takes 3 "on level" classes (including PE and an arts class) and 4 "advanced" classes at our local, majority white, middle school. At back to school night this week, I was pleased to see other AA parents in the halls, and in the lunch room. His first period class, one of the on level ones, had a number of other black parents. But when we went to Advanced English, or History, for example, every face in the room was white. I came home and asked him, and he confirmed. In each of his accelerated classes he was either the only, or one of two black kids. In his on level classes there were between 4 and 6 black kids total.

This same pattern existed last year. I'm curious whether other parents are noticing the same patterns in their kids' classes and how they talk about it with their children.

Stunned that I am the only one that noticed this so far. You state your son is in middle school in MCPS. If you think the Advanced English and Advanced World Studies are actually advanced you need to wake up the the MCPS class naming sham. There are middle schools that only offer the Advanced classes. Yes, 800 kids and every single kid that happens to live in that area year after year - they are all Advanced. It's a joke. I am assuming the other two classes you are claiming as advanced are the math class and the foreign language. As to those talk to people in other states, what is advanced for MCPS is average pace for schools in PA and NY.

Seperately, the issue of not having many AA in his classes it might be one of the following: not many AA in the school, random distribution of kids for scheduling or an effort to balance the diversity among the classrooms. And yes, I agree all schools need to focus on identifying smart AA kids. That said, I urge you to meet with the school to discuss how really Advanced the Advanced World Studies and Advanced English classes actually are as you will find its not a true honors class.

They are not meant to be traditional "Honors" classes. They are meant to introduce MS students to advanced academic skills in those subject areas. In other words, the curriculum NOT THE CHILD is advanced in these courses. This is why some schools in the name of equity have decided to only offer the Advanced version of the courses.
--MCPS teacher.

This. That's even more a play on names.

[Anonymous]

So, MCPS teacher, what exactly are the "advanced" academic skills that are being taught in "Advanced English" that weren't taught in "English?"
What happens to he kids who have IEPs and are reading 2 or 3 grade levels below and haven't mastered grade level academic skills, much less "advanced" ones?
Oh yeah, I know: their parents are told they are making progress and they get Bs. Too bad they are essentially functionally illiterate. Thanks MCPS!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, MCPS teacher, what exactly are the "advanced" academic skills that are being taught in "Advanced English" that weren't taught in "English?"
What happens to he kids who have IEPs and are reading 2 or 3 grade levels below and haven't mastered grade level academic skills, much less "advanced" ones?
Oh yeah, I know: their parents are told they are making progress and they get Bs. Too bad they are essentially functionally illiterate. Thanks MCPS!

I don't teach MS English so I can't tell you about that course. Ask me about MS Social Studies and I'm happy to have a debate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No one is saying that the kids who are there don't deserve to be there, so stop acting so threatened. The question is why more AA are not there. The answer is not to lower the standards just to fill the seats with more color. The answer is to better prepare the capable students, regardless of color, from a younger age. This isn't a 6th grade or a 9th grade issue. It is a k-5 preparation and engagement issue.

+1

Even schools like Rosemary Hills that are rainbow schools feed into schools like Westland, and the same divide exists. I'm guessing it may be more closely correlated to SES than race, but there are many factors at play including early childhood preparedness, home supports, and even subtle influences of teacher expectations and peer groups. I think we don't yet know how to address this in the public K-5 schools, but it is an important concern.