Turning down HGC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

There are, in fact, kids who are so gifted that they cannot thrive in a high-normal classroom. They are not special snowflakes; they are gifted.

There are also kids who struggle in a high-normal classroom because of learning disabilities, medical issues, low IQs, and other challenges.

All of these kids are entitled to an education appropriate to their needs.

"Special snowflakes" is just incendiary and an impediment to a rational, productive conversation.

It's the behavior of the parents, like this one, that lead posters to call the kids we're discussing "special snowflakes." Too bad. Let's try to discuss rationally with these difficult parents rather than take it out on the kids with negative labels.

[Anonymous]

FWIW, in our experience with magnets at the middle and high school levels, the peer group isn't perfectly ideal. True, the magnets are filled with smart kids who work hard. Also, and very important, there's no worry that a kid who excels will become an outsider, which may be a concern in some other schools. But the magnets can also be very, very competitive, which can be threatening to less competitive kids. My kids both know other kids who get upset with a 98 (and in MoCo, a 98 is an A the same way a 91 is an A, there is no +/-). Also, even in the magnets, there are still distinctions among "cool" kids and "nerds."

I would think a very bright kid who is a hard worker, but not super-competitive either academically or socially, might have a hard time in this sort of environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There are, in fact, kids who are so gifted that they cannot thrive in a high-normal classroom. They are not special snowflakes; they are gifted.

There are also kids who struggle in a high-normal classroom because of learning disabilities, medical issues, low IQs, and other challenges.

All of these kids are entitled to an education appropriate to their needs.

"Special snowflakes" is just incendiary and an impediment to a rational, productive conversation.

It's the behavior of the parents, like this one, that lead posters to call the kids we're discussing "special snowflakes." Too bad. Let's try to discuss rationally with these difficult parents rather than take it out on the kids with negative labels.

???

What "behavior" did the poster you quoted engage in that causes parents to call kids "special snowflakes"?

Huh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but OP does need to hear that very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC. In fact, she says she's looking for evidence on this very issue.

What's "an impediment to rational, productive conversation" is trying to shut down posters by saying you don't see how kids can be challenged outside an HGC. (And I notice we're dancing around the high/profoundly question, but I think we can agree we're talking about the top of the spectrum.) I'm talking to you, 11:19.

It's a fact that some very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC. Some of the issues people have talked about on this thread seem to be social rather than academic. People here have talked about peer groups, for example. But if the kid in question is happy, has friends, is not ostracized, and is challenged inside and outside of school -- then what purpose is served by yanking the kid out of his or her home school and away from friends?

Or do you really think it is all about doing higher and higher math/english/whatever within a school-structured context?

Or are their ways to challenge a kid outside an HGC, within and outside of school, that keep the kid challenged and happy? My kid challenges himself, for example by watching certain types NYU classes on YouTube.

Sometimes, granted, it depends on the kid's level of motivation and persistence.

11:19 here.

No one (NO ONE) here has said that they don't see how bright kids can be challenged outside a HGC. No one. I didn't say that in my post, and I don't think that either. I agree that some very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC and that this is a fact. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY.

What I did say is that for MY PARTICULAR CHILD[u], the HGC was a lifesaver. And I also said that name-calling ("special snowflakes") is not fair, or productive. As one PP said, it is "mean."

[Anonymous]

11:19 - actually, your previous posts take the same wall-of-bricks, uncompromising, hostile approach that you adopt in your 17:29.

If you come down like a hostile steamroller, you shouldn't act all surprised when people think you are, well, a hostile steamroller.

[Anonymous]

11:19, don't worry about it. You're right and you don't take an uncompromising approach.

[Anonymous]

I'm the special snowflakes poster.

I'm amazed that 11:19 has chosen to focus on one single part of my post. I raised a number of interesting issues she could have talked about. Is the verbal challenge in an immersion program comparable to the verbal challenge in an HGC? Is part of the benefit of an HGC the peer group, for kids who need it? Can bright kids be challenged by a combination of school and outside activities? Is it really all about getting the maximum acceleration within school walls, or if the kid is socially happy at the home school, is that important too?

Instead, 11:19 flew off the handle and called me names like obstructive, incendiary, et cetera. She did not address a single other element of my post. Also, 11:19 selectively quoted from my posts, and from 10:29 (who also said she "heard me" about the "special snowflakes perception".)

11:19, you need to understand this: if your demeanor is harsh, unforgiving, and alienates people, then you detract from your position and, by association, from your kid's needs. Many DCUM posters hate parents of gifted kids (note I said parents, not the kids) because of exactly YOUR behavior. This detracts from support for gifted programs. It also leads to exactly the "special snowflake" perception that I talked about.

Finally, you completely missed the main point: the "special snowflake perception" is more a criticism of the parents, like you, than it is of the kids and their actual needs. It says NOTHING about the kids' actual needs. However, it describes YOUR behavior very, very well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the special snowflakes poster.

I'm amazed that 11:19 has chosen to focus on one single part of my post. I raised a number of interesting issues she could have talked about. Is the verbal challenge in an immersion program comparable to the verbal challenge in an HGC? Is part of the benefit of an HGC the peer group, for kids who need it? Can bright kids be challenged by a combination of school and outside activities? Is it really all about getting the maximum acceleration within school walls, or if the kid is socially happy at the home school, is that important too?

Instead, 11:19 flew off the handle and called me names like obstructive, incendiary, et cetera. She did not address a single other element of my post. Also, 11:19 selectively quoted from my posts, and from 10:29 (who also said she "heard me" about the "special snowflakes perception".)

11:19, you need to understand this: if your demeanor is harsh, unforgiving, and alienates people, then you detract from your position and, by association, from your kid's needs. Many DCUM posters hate parents of gifted kids (note I said parents, not the kids) because of exactly YOUR behavior. This detracts from support for gifted programs. It also leads to exactly the "special snowflake" perception that I talked about.

Finally, you completely missed the main point: the "special snowflake perception" is more a criticism of the parents, like you, than it is of the kids and their actual needs. It says NOTHING about the kids' actual needs. However, it describes YOUR behavior very, very well.

Here is your post:

9:42 again. Thinking it over, the main point is that my kid was HAPPY at the immersion program, so we saw no reason to leave.

DC had great friends in the immersion program, they played on sports teams together. DC and we noticed some differences for example in the level of persistence, but in the end, DC was happy.

So we weren't in search of a more accepting peer group.

And, as I pointed out, there was actually sufficient challenge. Maybe folks who left in 4th grade didn't get to do math two years ahead, or read more advanced books in the target language, so they didn't see the challenge. By it's nature, 4th and 5th grades in any school have more homework, challenge etc. than 1-3rd grade.

OK, and I'll confess. I may have kids who are very smart. But I get driven a little nuts by posters who claim that their kids are such special snowflakes that they can't possibly thrive in high-normal classrooms. The whining by the parents of gifted kids is a reason we're so hated on DCUM. Maybe it's just me....
...

I don't see the "interesting points" raised that you refer to here, which you expected me to respond to. I will nonetheless address them:

Is the verbal challenge in an immersion program comparable to the verbal challenge in an HGC?

It can be, but in our experience it was not sufficient. It is not the same to be challenged in a foreign language as it is to be challenged to function at a higher level (no matter the language) in reading, writing, presentation. At least, it was not for our child.

Is part of the benefit of an HGC the peer group, for kids who need it?

Yes. Kids learn from each other in any classroom. If the peer group is all very high-performing, then the children will benefit from that. Study after study confirms this. If the home classroom is populated by similarly-capable peers then it will serve the same function.

Can bright kids be challenged by a combination of school and outside activities? Is it really all about getting the maximum acceleration within school walls, or if the kid is socially happy at the home school, is that important too?

Bright kids can be challenged in any number of ways. The HGC is about getting learning needs met which cannot be met in the home classroom - that is its mission and purpose. Social happiness matters too and is part of what parents need to consider in choosing to enroll their kids in the HGC, or not.

I refer you to 10:29, who captured it very well, for more explanation.

Now a question for you: You say, "OK, and I'll confess....But I get driven a little nuts by posters who claim that their kids are such special snowflakes that they can't possibly thrive in high-normal classrooms. "

Are you saying that parents who believe their children cannot thrive in a regular classroom are all whiners and delusional about their "special snowflakes"? All of them? In your view, are there any children who need a HGC environment? Because it sounds like you are saying there are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but OP does need to hear that very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC. In fact, she says she's looking for evidence on this very issue.

What's "an impediment to rational, productive conversation" is trying to shut down posters by saying you don't see how kids can be challenged outside an HGC. (And I notice we're dancing around the high/profoundly question, but I think we can agree we're talking about the top of the spectrum.) I'm talking to you, 11:19.

It's a fact that some very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC. Some of the issues people have talked about on this thread seem to be social rather than academic. People here have talked about peer groups, for example. But if the kid in question is happy, has friends, is not ostracized, and is challenged inside and outside of school -- then what purpose is served by yanking the kid out of his or her home school and away from friends?

Or do you really think it is all about doing higher and higher math/english/whatever within a school-structured context?

Or are their ways to challenge a kid outside an HGC, within and outside of school, that keep the kid challenged and happy? My kid challenges himself, for example by watching certain types NYU classes on YouTube.

Sometimes, granted, it depends on the kid's level of motivation and persistence.

11:19 here.

No one (NO ONE) here has said that they don't see how bright kids can be challenged outside a HGC. No one. I didn't say that in my post, and I don't think that either. I agree that some very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC and that this is a fact. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY.

What I did say is that for MY PARTICULAR CHILD[u], the HGC was a lifesaver. And I also said that name-calling ("special snowflakes") is not fair, or productive. As one PP said, it is "mean."

The response does seem way out of proportion to the quote. What's with all the bolds and capitals? I hope I don't meet this poster at a magnet family picnic -- she'll be the one shrieking at the principal because there are flies in the mustard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but OP does need to hear that very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC. In fact, she says she's looking for evidence on this very issue.

What's "an impediment to rational, productive conversation" is trying to shut down posters by saying you don't see how kids can be challenged outside an HGC. (And I notice we're dancing around the high/profoundly question, but I think we can agree we're talking about the top of the spectrum.) I'm talking to you, 11:19.

It's a fact that some very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC. Some of the issues people have talked about on this thread seem to be social rather than academic. People here have talked about peer groups, for example. But if the kid in question is happy, has friends, is not ostracized, and is challenged inside and outside of school -- then what purpose is served by yanking the kid out of his or her home school and away from friends?

Or do you really think it is all about doing higher and higher math/english/whatever within a school-structured context?

Or are their ways to challenge a kid outside an HGC, within and outside of school, that keep the kid challenged and happy? My kid challenges himself, for example by watching certain types NYU classes on YouTube.

Sometimes, granted, it depends on the kid's level of motivation and persistence.

11:19 here.

No one (NO ONE) here has said that they don't see how bright kids can be challenged outside a HGC. No one. I didn't say that in my post, and I don't think that either. I agree that some very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC and that this is a fact. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY.

What I did say is that for MY PARTICULAR CHILD[u], the HGC was a lifesaver. And I also said that name-calling ("special snowflakes") is not fair, or productive. As one PP said, it is "mean."

Oops, messed up the quotes.

The response does seem way out of proportion to the quote. What's with all the bolds and capitals? I hope I don't meet this poster at a magnet family picnic -- she'll be the one shrieking at the principal because there are flies in the mustard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but OP does need to hear that very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC. In fact, she says she's looking for evidence on this very issue.

What's "an impediment to rational, productive conversation" is trying to shut down posters by saying you don't see how kids can be challenged outside an HGC. (And I notice we're dancing around the high/profoundly question, but I think we can agree we're talking about the top of the spectrum.) I'm talking to you, 11:19.

It's a fact that some very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC. Some of the issues people have talked about on this thread seem to be social rather than academic. People here have talked about peer groups, for example. But if the kid in question is happy, has friends, is not ostracized, and is challenged inside and outside of school -- then what purpose is served by yanking the kid out of his or her home school and away from friends?

Or do you really think it is all about doing higher and higher math/english/whatever within a school-structured context?

Or are their ways to challenge a kid outside an HGC, within and outside of school, that keep the kid challenged and happy? My kid challenges himself, for example by watching certain types NYU classes on YouTube.

Sometimes, granted, it depends on the kid's level of motivation and persistence.

11:19 here.

No one (NO ONE) here has said that they don't see how bright kids can be challenged outside a HGC. No one. I didn't say that in my post, and I don't think that either. I agree that some very bright kids can thrive outside an HGC and that this is a fact. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY.

What I did say is that for MY PARTICULAR CHILD[u], the HGC was a lifesaver. And I also said that name-calling ("special snowflakes") is not fair, or productive. As one PP said, it is "mean."

Oops, messed up the quotes.

The response does seem way out of proportion to the quote. What's with all the bolds and capitals? I hope I don't meet this poster at a magnet family picnic -- she'll be the one shrieking at the principal because there are flies in the mustard.

If you are done insulting me, could you please address the substance of the discussion?

[Anonymous]

I'd like to make a point about immersion, because we sent DC to immersion specifically because we knew he'd need some extra challenge and we were worried about what would happen in our home school (which is by the way a very good and highly regarded ES). This is not due to some delusions about how smart he was -- he was an early reader who read middle school level chapter books like Harry Potter before he went to kindergarten. (This is not an exaggeration or a "special snowflake" comment -- it's just the truth.)

At that point no one knew whether he was just a very early reader or would need acceleration throughout school. but we knew that reading picture books in kindergarten would frustrate him. Immersion seemed like the perfect answer, because it would add an extra level of challenge.

For our kid (and I emphasize this is one child's experience) it did not work out that way. He ended up frustrated because he couldn't read what he was interested in in the other language. His vocabulary in the second language didn't match his decoding skills -- he could still decode chapter books but he had no idea what many of the words meant. You'd think this would be challenging, and indeed I think it would for an older child, but for a five year old it was just awful. The teacher did what many teachers do with a class of 25 (immersion classes are huge from the beginning) -- she told him he could help the other kids. That's a lot of patience to expect from a five year old, and it also did nothing to address the fact that he still wanted to read things that were interesting to him.

This is only one small example of the potential difficulties of immersion for kids who also need acceleration. Another aspect is that teachers in immersion pretty much create their own course materials (with the exception of math books) so there may not be the materials necessary to give a child something different if he/she needs it. And you can't easily send a child to a different grade for a certain subject because they won't have developed the vocabulary for it.

So my point is that immersion isn't a panacea. For many bright and motivated kids, it's a wonderful option. And it was thrilling to see my third grader write fluent paragraphs in another language! But if you have a child whose issue at school is seeking out more challenging curriculum, it may actually present additional obstacles.

Hope that provides just one perspective for the PPs wondering about immersion vs. HGCs.

[Anonymous]

Snowflake poster again. I'm not the previous poster, but clearly you've hit a nerve.

Seriously? You chose my post of 14:21 above to excoriate me (in your 17:29), but when it came to telling me my points weren't interesting, you went back to my post of 9:42? Did you really just do that?

Re verbal challenge. The challenge in an immersion program is different from in an HGC, but in our experience it was sufficient. You weren't in immersion for the harder reading materials (grades 4-5), so you would not have seen this. As I posted earlier, grades 4-5 are by nature harder than grades 1-3, in any school.

You write that the HGC is "all about getting needs met that can't be met in a regular classroom." This seems to contradict your preceding statement, that kids can get challenged in a number of ways. These two statements don't seem consistent.

No, I never implied that no kids need HGCs. I explicitly said that some do, particularly for the social and peer aspects. When you write, "it sounds like you do not" believe there are any kids who need an HGC, you are putting words into my mouth.

I do wonder if I've walked into the middle of somebody who is battling MCPS budget issues. Namely, somebody who has a ton at stake in maintaining/increasing funding for HGCs. I actually think increased funding for HGCs would be a good thing. But it would explain why you went nuts over the snowflake point. (I'm trying to explain your behavior charitably.)

OK, I'm done here. Gotta go somewhere. But also, I see no mileage in arguing with somebody who twists my words to the extent you do, and who goes nuts over selective quotes. Have fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Snowflake poster again. I'm not the previous poster, but clearly you've hit a nerve.

Seriously? You chose my post of 14:21 above to excoriate me (in your 17:29), but when it came to telling me my points weren't interesting, you went back to my post of 9:42? Did you really just do that?

Re verbal challenge. The challenge in an immersion program is different from in an HGC, but in our experience it was sufficient. You weren't in immersion for the harder reading materials (grades 4-5), so you would not have seen this. As I posted earlier, grades 4-5 are by nature harder than grades 1-3, in any school.

You write that the HGC is "all about getting needs met that can't be met in a regular classroom." This seems to contradict your preceding statement, that kids can get challenged in a number of ways. These two statements don't seem consistent.

No, I never implied that no kids need HGCs. I explicitly said that some do, particularly for the social and peer aspects. When you write, "it sounds like you do not" believe there are any kids who need an HGC, you are putting words into my mouth.

I do wonder if I've walked into the middle of somebody who is battling MCPS budget issues. Namely, somebody who has a ton at stake in maintaining/increasing funding for HGCs. I actually think increased funding for HGCs would be a good thing. But it would explain why you went nuts over the snowflake point. (I'm trying to explain your behavior charitably.)

OK, I'm done here. Gotta go somewhere. But also, I see no mileage in arguing with somebody who twists my words to the extent you do, and who goes nuts over selective quotes. Have fun.

Actually, we did see this. Two of our children went all the way through the immersion program.

There is nothing inconsistent about my statements. Some (not all) bright kids cannot get their needs met in the home school.

MCPS has not indicated that the HGCs are at stake in the budget battles.

The "snowflake" comment is, as a PP said, just mean. From a debating POV, it is also lazy. It is easier to go after the person you are debating with, on a personal level, than it is to discuss the substance of your argument.

[Anonymous]

10:19 here above.

One point I'd like to clarify about my lengthy previous post: we do have other kids who have stayed in immersion all the way through, so we have a good idea about the challenge of the reading material, etc. all the way through. And I think my other children are plenty smart so I'm really proud of the hard work they have done in immersion.

While it's true that they can and do read more complex materials in 4th and 5th immersion classes, my experience is that it is not comparable, in terms of the depth of discussion, the number of novels read, and the word required in conjunction with the reading of the novels (essays, multimedia projects, etc.).

For example, in fourth grade at the HGC, kids do an author project. They read three novels by an author of their choice (from a list); those novels can't be three in a series. They must also read a book-length autobiography of that author. Then they do a project that contains about eight elements: for example, a three to five page biography of the author with bibliography in proper format, analysis of the textual elements of one of the books, a powerpoint presentation about the author and his/her work, and several more.

One important aspect of the project is that the kids write several drafts of their essays/papers. Teachers are uncompromising about grammar, mechanics and form, so that the essays at the end are really high quality -- something you might even see in high school.

No matter how wonderful immersion is -- and I think it is -- immersion programs don't ask this much of their students. It is really a stretch for most children to executive a project like this, with so many elements over a number of weeks, and such a high level expected for each element.

This kind of thing might be perfect for your child, or it might not. So it's important to understand what the HGC entails, so you can make a solid decision. One suggestion for those making a decision might be to ask a family of a kid in an HCG to see some of the language arts projects that child did in 4th or 5th grade.