How tough exactly are top universities in the UK and Canada relative to U.S. colleges?

[Anonymous]

U of T is more rigorous than most US universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it relevant?

OP: Our DC wants to explore schools in the UK or Canada

My kids are dual UK citizens, and I wanted them to apply there. But, one thing that gave us pause was that switching majors is not a thing there.

For DC#1 that wasn't an issue, but they got into our state flagship with merit and has done extremely well (amazing internships).

DC#2 was open to it, but this DC may end up switching majors, so we decided to stay put in the US. Got into another great oos flagship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are 3 shorter terms per year. If one falls behind academically, could be hard to catch up.

The U.S. has colleges like that too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it relevant?

OP: Our DC wants to explore schools in the UK or Canada

It's not about difficulty so much as it's just a very different philosphy of education. You pick one thing, that is all you study and you are stuck with it even you don't like it or do poorly. The U.S. system can be broader and more flexible, depending on what you choose, even at schools that may be more rigorous. But like anywhere, every country has easier and more difficult academic programs.

[Anonymous]

Both UK and U.S. universities have had significant grade inflation (average grades today are higher than they were previously). I think it is more extensive at U.S. universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you do a google search "is grade inflation a problem at UK universities" you will find the answer you seek in various UK publications. (Spoiler: the answer is "yes.")

I'm sure you are right, but there are still enforced limits on first class degrees at Oxbridge. I think thirty years ago, only 10% of students got firsts, and now (depending on subject) it's up to 25%.

However, considering that the median grade at most Ivy League schools is an A, the grade inflation situation does not compare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:U of T is more rigorous than most US universities.

Can someone who knows name U.S. schools that are likely more or less rigorous than U of Toronto so we know in relative terms what people mean by it's very rigorous?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Extra circular activities are also much lower key in the UK.

The semi pro level college sports system in the US simply doesn’t exist there. Pretty much all activities are open enrolment and for all abilities.

The infrastructure reflects that, most universities just have the one sports center with a gym and a few multi purpose sports fields and halls.

That sounds amazing. US school has too muc emphasis on sports, grade inflation, too much CV padding, nonsense first year courses. And yes, very expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it relevant?

OP: Our DC wants to explore schools in the UK or Canada

My kids are dual UK citizens, and I wanted them to apply there. But, one thing that gave us pause was that switching majors is not a thing there.

For DC#1 that wasn't an issue, but they got into our state flagship with merit and has done extremely well (amazing internships).

DC#2 was open to it, but this DC may end up switching majors, so we decided to stay put in the US. Got into another great oos flagship.

True for England, but not in Scotland. AS most of you already know, the US system was created and based on the Scottish system. Obviously it is different, but in Scotland you have some flexibility to change majors within your first and second year (before your honours years) as long as took their base courses in year 1/2. It is actually pretty common at some unis in Scotland for a good % of kids to change majors after 1 or 2 semesters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've heard Oxford, Cambridge, University of Toronto, Waterloo are tough academically...classes are large and there is no handholding. Exactly how tough are we talking about in relative terms to American colleges? Going through the college process now for the first time with eldest kid and have no basis for comparison, but we have heard recent graduates from our school who moved on to schools with "tough academics" reputation (U Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Hopkins, Swarthmore, etc.) come back to say it's not that bad and that Yale, Brown, Wesleyan, etc. are easier than their junior/senior years at our high school. We're at a non-DMV private often ranked in top 40 in the country with our own tough academics reputation.

Asking because both DC (11th and 9th grade) expressed interest to go overseas and we wonder if we should take their wishes seriously, if they could be culture shocked by the lack of support. Before I get flamed, want to add DH and I are both from public schools/working class background and both DCs went to public schools from K through 7th/5th grade with large class sizes and did very well. Both are very independent and self-initiators (never had tutors, self-motivated to do well at school and joined ECs of their own choices, etc.). We are open to them going overseas and be challenged but don't want them to drown.

You should spend more time understanding why they want to go to college overseas and ensuring the entire experience aligns.

Outside of Oxford and Cambridge and St. Andrews (which has specifically done tons to attract international students, in particular Americans), many international schools have very significant commuter populations. This is particularly true for Canadian universities...even Toronto, McGill and Waterloo. The Canadian schools also don't consider providing room and board as really their issue, though they do provide ala carte options for freshmen. Most kids live off-campus starting as Sophomores, which again, may be the experience your kids want.

College isn't considered some tremendous "experience", but is more practical and transactional. Maybe that's what your kids are after...but maybe not.

True, but there are a lot of Unis in the UK that do not have the commuter feel. The 3 you mentioned are the obvious ones, but also Durham, Exeter, Warwick, Bath. Obviously the London/Manchester/Birmingham unis will all have their large share of commuters…just like a place like NYU would. But outside the big centers it is a pretty normal college life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have a kid at the dual W&M/StA program.
Kid has A’s when she at W&M…..struggles to get a 15-16/20 while at StA…..same kid….grading there is MUCH MUCH tougher….

15-16/20 is a very strong grade, equivalent to an A average. Good for her, but that doesn't mean the course is tougher - after all, her grades at the two are similar once you properly equate them.

My point was, she struggled to get a 15, but did not struggle at all to get a 90 at W&M. So yes, it is MUCH easier to get an A at W&M than a 1st at Sta. Anyone who has had kids at the dual program will agree. I never said the course is tougher. I only said the grading is MUCH tougher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Extra circular activities are also much lower key in the UK.

The semi pro level college sports system in the US simply doesn’t exist there. Pretty much all activities are open enrolment and for all abilities.

The infrastructure reflects that, most universities just have the one sports center with a gym and a few multi purpose sports fields and halls.

Yes, there is no comparison between NCAA and BUCS. But to say there is no semi-pro level sports in the uk is not necessarily true.
Unis like Exeter, Loughborough, Bath, Durham and St Andrews have centers of excellence in several sports where a lot of their olympians train. Sure mainly Olympic sports, but some of these schools have excelled in several sports at a semi-pro level and could compete at the D1 against any US D1 school at these sports: Swimming at Stirling/Loughborough, Golf at StA, Soccer (several), Rowing and Rugby (several), Baketball (Loughborough), Track and Field (a couple).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've heard Oxford, Cambridge, University of Toronto, Waterloo are tough academically...classes are large and there is no handholding. Exactly how tough are we talking about in relative terms to American colleges? Going through the college process now for the first time with eldest kid and have no basis for comparison, but we have heard recent graduates from our school who moved on to schools with "tough academics" reputation (U Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Hopkins, Swarthmore, etc.) come back to say it's not that bad and that Yale, Brown, Wesleyan, etc. are easier than their junior/senior years at our high school. We're at a non-DMV private often ranked in top 40 in the country with our own tough academics reputation.

Asking because both DC (11th and 9th grade) expressed interest to go overseas and we wonder if we should take their wishes seriously, if they could be culture shocked by the lack of support. Before I get flamed, want to add DH and I are both from public schools/working class background and both DCs went to public schools from K through 7th/5th grade with large class sizes and did very well. Both are very independent and self-initiators (never had tutors, self-motivated to do well at school and joined ECs of their own choices, etc.). We are open to them going overseas and be challenged but don't want them to drown.

You should spend more time understanding why they want to go to college overseas and ensuring the entire experience aligns.

Outside of Oxford and Cambridge and St. Andrews (which has specifically done tons to attract international students, in particular Americans), many international schools have very significant commuter populations. This is particularly true for Canadian universities...even Toronto, McGill and Waterloo. The Canadian schools also don't consider providing room and board as really their issue, though they do provide ala carte options for freshmen. Most kids live off-campus starting as Sophomores, which again, may be the experience your kids want.

College isn't considered some tremendous "experience", but is more practical and transactional. Maybe that's what your kids are after...but maybe not.

True, but there are a lot of Unis in the UK that do not have the commuter feel. The 3 you mentioned are the obvious ones, but also Durham, Exeter, Warwick, Bath. Obviously the London/Manchester/Birmingham unis will all have their large share of commuters…just like a place like NYU would. But outside the big centers it is a pretty normal college life.

NYU doesn't have many commuters at all. They may be from the NYC area, but they don't live at home and take the subway or Metro North to school everyday, and then return back to their family home. They live in dorms or their own apartments.

NYU also has a massive percentage of international students. I think the highest of any US college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have a kid at the dual W&M/StA program.
Kid has A’s when she at W&M…..struggles to get a 15-16/20 while at StA…..same kid….grading there is MUCH MUCH tougher….

15-16/20 is a very strong grade, equivalent to an A average. Good for her, but that doesn't mean the course is tougher - after all, her grades at the two are similar once you properly equate them.

My point was, she struggled to get a 15, but did not struggle at all to get a 90 at W&M. So yes, it is MUCH easier to get an A at W&M than a 1st at Sta. Anyone who has had kids at the dual program will agree. I never said the course is tougher. I only said the grading is MUCH tougher.

Had US based kid go through this program. Grading much tougher at St Andrews and fewer graded assignments per module (course). UK based kids chaff at having to endure many graded assignments to include quizzes, multiple papers at W&M. Much more suited to the independent study approach of UK universities to include St Andrews.

One of the biggest challenges is that only honors modules (years 3 & 4) count toward the GPA at St Andrews. So second year students from W&M often experience harsher grades 11s, 12s, 13s as professors prepare students for honors courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've heard Oxford, Cambridge, University of Toronto, Waterloo are tough academically...classes are large and there is no handholding. Exactly how tough are we talking about in relative terms to American colleges? Going through the college process now for the first time with eldest kid and have no basis for comparison, but we have heard recent graduates from our school who moved on to schools with "tough academics" reputation (U Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Hopkins, Swarthmore, etc.) come back to say it's not that bad and that Yale, Brown, Wesleyan, etc. are easier than their junior/senior years at our high school. We're at a non-DMV private often ranked in top 40 in the country with our own tough academics reputation.

Asking because both DC (11th and 9th grade) expressed interest to go overseas and we wonder if we should take their wishes seriously, if they could be culture shocked by the lack of support. Before I get flamed, want to add DH and I are both from public schools/working class background and both DCs went to public schools from K through 7th/5th grade with large class sizes and did very well. Both are very independent and self-initiators (never had tutors, self-motivated to do well at school and joined ECs of their own choices, etc.). We are open to them going overseas and be challenged but don't want them to drown.

You should spend more time understanding why they want to go to college overseas and ensuring the entire experience aligns.

Outside of Oxford and Cambridge and St. Andrews (which has specifically done tons to attract international students, in particular Americans), many international schools have very significant commuter populations. This is particularly true for Canadian universities...even Toronto, McGill and Waterloo. The Canadian schools also don't consider providing room and board as really their issue, though they do provide ala carte options for freshmen. Most kids live off-campus starting as Sophomores, which again, may be the experience your kids want.

College isn't considered some tremendous "experience", but is more practical and transactional. Maybe that's what your kids are after...but maybe not.

True, but there are a lot of Unis in the UK that do not have the commuter feel. The 3 you mentioned are the obvious ones, but also Durham, Exeter, Warwick, Bath. Obviously the London/Manchester/Birmingham unis will all have their large share of commuters…just like a place like NYU would. But outside the big centers it is a pretty normal college life.

NYU doesn't have many commuters at all. They may be from the NYC area, but they don't live at home and take the subway or Metro North to school everyday, and then return back to their family home. They live in dorms or their own apartments.

NYU also has a massive percentage of international students. I think the highest of any US college.

This is true at the London-based universities too. Would caution against using the term “commuter school” which implies kids living at home.