How tough exactly are top universities in the UK and Canada relative to U.S. colleges?

[Anonymous]

Why is it relevant?

[Anonymous]

I went to LSE, albeit a couple decades ago and as a masters student. But I knew a lot of undergrads because I lived in a dorm with lots of undergrads.

LSE was MUCH less work than my top ten SLAC undergrad. You maybe had a few essays, some of them counted, some didn't. All or most of your grade was dependent on year end exams. Each week of term was a different topic and the exams had maybe ten or twelve topics and you only had to write on three. So the strategy was to learn four topics really well, one topic pretty well, and two topics sort of well as back ups.

Lots of vacation time. Plenty of free time.

It's important to be a mature self starter who does not need hand holding. British administrators are tough and not very flexible. For example, they don't care if you have a death in the family, even a parent. You still have to show up for exams, funeral plans be damned. My friend's parent died and they did not allow him to take his exams late. Instead, he had to apply for permission to take his exams the next year. Half of the classes were taught by different profs, with different syllabi. He was delayed getting his degree for a year. It seemed very cruel and harsh.

Oxford and Cambridge has more essay writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is it relevant?

OP: Our DC wants to explore schools in the UK or Canada

[Anonymous]

Upper Second Class honours….to be exact…from Bristol…..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to LSE, albeit a couple decades ago and as a masters student. But I knew a lot of undergrads because I lived in a dorm with lots of undergrads.

LSE was MUCH less work than my top ten SLAC undergrad. You maybe had a few essays, some of them counted, some didn't. All or most of your grade was dependent on year end exams. Each week of term was a different topic and the exams had maybe ten or twelve topics and you only had to write on three. So the strategy was to learn four topics really well, one topic pretty well, and two topics sort of well as back ups.

Lots of vacation time. Plenty of free time.

It's important to be a mature self starter who does not need hand holding. British administrators are tough and not very flexible. For example, they don't care if you have a death in the family, even a parent. You still have to show up for exams, funeral plans be damned. My friend's parent died and they did not allow him to take his exams late. Instead, he had to apply for permission to take his exams the next year. Half of the classes were taught by different profs, with different syllabi. He was delayed getting his degree for a year. It seemed very cruel and harsh.

Oxford and Cambridge has more essay writing.

That’s why LSE is dubbed “Let’s See Europe”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've heard Oxford, Cambridge, University of Toronto, Waterloo are tough academically...classes are large and there is no handholding. Exactly how tough are we talking about in relative terms to American colleges? Going through the college process now for the first time with eldest kid and have no basis for comparison, but we have heard recent graduates from our school who moved on to schools with "tough academics" reputation (U Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Hopkins, Swarthmore, etc.) come back to say it's not that bad and that Yale, Brown, Wesleyan, etc. are easier than their junior/senior years at our high school. We're at a non-DMV private often ranked in top 40 in the country with our own tough academics reputation.

Asking because both DC (11th and 9th grade) expressed interest to go overseas and we wonder if we should take their wishes seriously, if they could be culture shocked by the lack of support. Before I get flamed, want to add DH and I are both from public schools/working class background and both DCs went to public schools from K through 7th/5th grade with large class sizes and did very well. Both are very independent and self-initiators (never had tutors, self-motivated to do well at school and joined ECs of their own choices, etc.). We are open to them going overseas and be challenged but don't want them to drown.

The floor is higher than any US university besides Caltech, MIT, and maybe UChicago and Princeton, but the ceiling (which at international schools is often equal to the floor) is much lower. No taking grad courses as a freshman or sophomore the way you can in the US, and research experience is also scarcer and thus often limited to master's students and final year undergraduates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to LSE, albeit a couple decades ago and as a masters student. But I knew a lot of undergrads because I lived in a dorm with lots of undergrads.

LSE was MUCH less work than my top ten SLAC undergrad. You maybe had a few essays, some of them counted, some didn't. All or most of your grade was dependent on year end exams. Each week of term was a different topic and the exams had maybe ten or twelve topics and you only had to write on three. So the strategy was to learn four topics really well, one topic pretty well, and two topics sort of well as back ups.

Lots of vacation time. Plenty of free time.

It's important to be a mature self starter who does not need hand holding. British administrators are tough and not very flexible. For example, they don't care if you have a death in the family, even a parent. You still have to show up for exams, funeral plans be damned. My friend's parent died and they did not allow him to take his exams late. Instead, he had to apply for permission to take his exams the next year. Half of the classes were taught by different profs, with different syllabi. He was delayed getting his degree for a year. It seemed very cruel and harsh.

Oxford and Cambridge has more essay writing.

LSE isn't actually a top school in terms of rigor. The only exception is the Msc EME, which is fast paced as it's a one year rigorous master's in econ. It's actually the best econ master's in Europe for PhD admission purposes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have a kid at the dual W&M/StA program.
Kid has A’s when she at W&M…..struggles to get a 15-16/20 while at StA…..same kid….grading there is MUCH MUCH tougher….

15-16/20 is a very strong grade, equivalent to an A average. Good for her, but that doesn't mean the course is tougher - after all, her grades at the two are similar once you properly equate them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you do a google search "is grade inflation a problem at UK universities" you will find the answer you seek in various UK publications. (Spoiler: the answer is "yes.")

And yet, it is not even close to being the Free As at American schools….my daughter is a perfect example …..W&M showers these kids with As….if you consider an A in StA 90%, she has never had one A there….not even close….she has had plenty of 70%…

70%+ is a first, which is the highest possible grade. So her grades at the two schools are similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to LSE, albeit a couple decades ago and as a masters student. But I knew a lot of undergrads because I lived in a dorm with lots of undergrads.

LSE was MUCH less work than my top ten SLAC undergrad. You maybe had a few essays, some of them counted, some didn't. All or most of your grade was dependent on year end exams. Each week of term was a different topic and the exams had maybe ten or twelve topics and you only had to write on three. So the strategy was to learn four topics really well, one topic pretty well, and two topics sort of well as back ups.

Lots of vacation time. Plenty of free time.

It's important to be a mature self starter who does not need hand holding. British administrators are tough and not very flexible. For example, they don't care if you have a death in the family, even a parent. You still have to show up for exams, funeral plans be damned. My friend's parent died and they did not allow him to take his exams late. Instead, he had to apply for permission to take his exams the next year. Half of the classes were taught by different profs, with different syllabi. He was delayed getting his degree for a year. It seemed very cruel and harsh.

Oxford and Cambridge has more essay writing.

This comment misses the mark. Most UK universities operate on the end of year exam model. But the thing that is missing from the comment is that the grading is HARD. Very, very, difficult to get a first at LSE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to LSE, albeit a couple decades ago and as a masters student. But I knew a lot of undergrads because I lived in a dorm with lots of undergrads.

LSE was MUCH less work than my top ten SLAC undergrad. You maybe had a few essays, some of them counted, some didn't. All or most of your grade was dependent on year end exams. Each week of term was a different topic and the exams had maybe ten or twelve topics and you only had to write on three. So the strategy was to learn four topics really well, one topic pretty well, and two topics sort of well as back ups.

Lots of vacation time. Plenty of free time.

It's important to be a mature self starter who does not need hand holding. British administrators are tough and not very flexible. For example, they don't care if you have a death in the family, even a parent. You still have to show up for exams, funeral plans be damned. My friend's parent died and they did not allow him to take his exams late. Instead, he had to apply for permission to take his exams the next year. Half of the classes were taught by different profs, with different syllabi. He was delayed getting his degree for a year. It seemed very cruel and harsh.

Oxford and Cambridge has more essay writing.

This comment misses the mark. Most UK universities operate on the end of year exam model. But the thing that is missing from the comment is that the grading is HARD. Very, very, difficult to get a first at LSE.

Winning the lottery is even more difficult, but that doesn't make it more rigorous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you do a google search "is grade inflation a problem at UK universities" you will find the answer you seek in various UK publications. (Spoiler: the answer is "yes.")

This is a true statement. But the reaction of UK universities was to voluntarily return to “harsher” grading standards than to follow the US reaction and make “A”s the norm.

You are seeing a return to the top 5th to a quarter of the students graduate in undergrads with firsts. Then about half the class with 2:1s and the remainder with 2:2s or below.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you do a google search "is grade inflation a problem at UK universities" you will find the answer you seek in various UK publications. (Spoiler: the answer is "yes.")

This is a true statement. But the reaction of UK universities was to voluntarily return to “harsher” grading standards than to follow the US reaction and make “A”s the norm.

You are seeing a return to the top 5th to a quarter of the students graduate in undergrads with firsts. Then about half the class with 2:1s and the remainder with 2:2s or below.

Agree. At my DD's UK university, there is a concerted effort afoot to tighten up exams and grading following the COVID-era easing. A lot of talk about going back to "the old ways."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to LSE, albeit a couple decades ago and as a masters student. But I knew a lot of undergrads because I lived in a dorm with lots of undergrads.

LSE was MUCH less work than my top ten SLAC undergrad. You maybe had a few essays, some of them counted, some didn't. All or most of your grade was dependent on year end exams. Each week of term was a different topic and the exams had maybe ten or twelve topics and you only had to write on three. So the strategy was to learn four topics really well, one topic pretty well, and two topics sort of well as back ups.

Lots of vacation time. Plenty of free time.

It's important to be a mature self starter who does not need hand holding. British administrators are tough and not very flexible. For example, they don't care if you have a death in the family, even a parent. You still have to show up for exams, funeral plans be damned. My friend's parent died and they did not allow him to take his exams late. Instead, he had to apply for permission to take his exams the next year. Half of the classes were taught by different profs, with different syllabi. He was delayed getting his degree for a year. It seemed very cruel and harsh.

Oxford and Cambridge has more essay writing.

This comment misses the mark. Most UK universities operate on the end of year exam model. But the thing that is missing from the comment is that the grading is HARD. Very, very, difficult to get a first at LSE.

Winning the lottery is even more difficult, but that doesn't make it more rigorous.

I think this comment and the previous long one highlight the very American perspective towards college.

American universities involve a lot of hand holding. We don’t always call it that, but the frequent quiz, test, essay, etc is all designed to force the students to study. The UK model that is heavy on end-year exams is one of independence. You can choose to do less work. You’ll end up with a 2:2 and be disappointed (or not, perhaps), but that’s up to you. The clear distinction between grade classifications makes your result starker than in the fluid and heavily-grade inflated GPA approach. The disciplining element is in the end result instead of in frequent assessment. If you want that end result to be the best, you have to work hard. But you can also choose not to.

Note that there is also a difference between undergrad and master’s level that the PP was drawing from. The American master’s model is very much the undergrad model but with more advanced classes. Lots of tests, etc and most people’s approach is “how do I pass this?” The UK university view is much more, “we give you all of the resources you need to master (ahem) this subject. Classes, discussion sections, academic literature, office hours, optional essays. You’re paying to be here, it’s up to you to go out and decide if you want learn it.” You can choose not to. You can choose the American approach to pass described by the PP of “the strategy was to learn four topics really well, one topic pretty well, and two topics sort of well as back ups.” But you won’t master the subject with this approach. You won’t get a distinction—which is still quite difficult to get—and your future path in that field in top tier academia is probably done.

Most people don’t necessarily care about this, so it isn’t a big deal. But the approach and mentality are different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've heard Oxford, Cambridge, University of Toronto, Waterloo are tough academically...classes are large and there is no handholding. Exactly how tough are we talking about in relative terms to American colleges? Going through the college process now for the first time with eldest kid and have no basis for comparison, but we have heard recent graduates from our school who moved on to schools with "tough academics" reputation (U Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Hopkins, Swarthmore, etc.) come back to say it's not that bad and that Yale, Brown, Wesleyan, etc. are easier than their junior/senior years at our high school. We're at a non-DMV private often ranked in top 40 in the country with our own tough academics reputation.

Asking because both DC (11th and 9th grade) expressed interest to go overseas and we wonder if we should take their wishes seriously, if they could be culture shocked by the lack of support. Before I get flamed, want to add DH and I are both from public schools/working class background and both DCs went to public schools from K through 7th/5th grade with large class sizes and did very well. Both are very independent and self-initiators (never had tutors, self-motivated to do well at school and joined ECs of their own choices, etc.). We are open to them going overseas and be challenged but don't want them to drown.

You should spend more time understanding why they want to go to college overseas and ensuring the entire experience aligns.

Outside of Oxford and Cambridge and St. Andrews (which has specifically done tons to attract international students, in particular Americans), many international schools have very significant commuter populations. This is particularly true for Canadian universities...even Toronto, McGill and Waterloo. The Canadian schools also don't consider providing room and board as really their issue, though they do provide ala carte options for freshmen. Most kids live off-campus starting as Sophomores, which again, may be the experience your kids want.

College isn't considered some tremendous "experience", but is more practical and transactional. Maybe that's what your kids are after...but maybe not.