How important are college grades?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

[Anonymous]

See how midterms go. Then ask your DC how they’re feeling.

If they’re feeling good about their grades, step back and let go. Even if the grades aren’t as high as you’d like. Trust that they’re growing and learning in other ways this semester and will be just fine.

However, if they sound overly anxious, or worried or at a loss about how to possibly “catch up” this late in the semester etc. pay closer attention. You don’t want a kid who’s used to getting straight A’s suddenly spiraling about academics.

Recognizing that someone has to be at or below the middle of the class (and that’s ok!!), if they seem anxious or spiraling, try coaching them a bit - encourage THEM to come up with some new behaviors to try.

I was that freshman, by the way, back when core classes were set on a B- curve. Rough start, but I was oblivious/in denial first semester (overconfident/less mature) and then started figuring it out slowly. Got a math turor. Learned to go to the library to crank every night after dinner, before going out.

My parents were sweetly supportive, which helped me course-correct on my own timeline with minimal mental health issues. Unlike in high school, when they were hard core tiger patents, they recognized that I had to mature at my own pace in college.

They also knew that getting in to the Ivy was the hardest part. With or without top grades, it would be a life-long asset. They were 100% correct. No Latin honors and no regrets.

Those four years were the most transformational of my life, academically, socially, and emotionally. For me, the benefits of thise non-academic experiences (clubs, sports, going out, hanging out) far outweighed the cost of every B-, including lack of access to the “top” jobs and grad schools immediately after graduation. Life is long. It’s important to live and grow on ALL dimensions.

[Anonymous]

Important for grad school. Important for internships. Irrelevant for getting a job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Much as SAT scores have all become ridiculously inflated, grades at top schools are now increasingly inflated. My friend's kid is at Duke and I think to make Dean's List which is the top of the class you basically need a 4.0 or very close as so many kids are getting that. And they had to restrict Latin honors to a percentage of the class and the bar keeps going up and up.

I think grades matter quite a bit but as others have noted, it depends on what they want to do. For grad school you need to be near the top of your class, especially if you are applying right out of college. Finance also prefers top of class, though I think some kids can get good internships through connections so that gives them some flexibility.

So I wouldn't come down hard on your kid but I would have a reality check at some point.

Yet another way in which life for kids has gotten worse. I have a top MBA and work on Wall Street and coming out of undergrad there wasn't a ton of emphasis on grades and to get into business school grades mattered but were only one piece of a very big picture. Now it is less like this.

I don't do much hiring anymore but I am less in the weeds on these things - if a kid passed the bar to get into a great school, I assume they are smart and give some flexibility on grades - I am more focused on personality, EQ and work ethic and figure that they will figure it out. From weaker schools I care more about grades.

Twenty years ago, magna cum laude (top 20 percent I think?) at Notre Dame used to require about a 3.4 or 3.5. When my son graduated, you basically needed a 3.85.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

NP. Because it underestimates the life-long value of an Ivy education, including name recognition, network, and all the assumptions that come with that.

Also, yours is a perfect example of anxiety-driven, all-or-nothing catastrophic thinking. Textbook “how not to do life.”

To state the obvious, there are a million options between MBB and being unemployed. And your fear of immediately plummeting to “schlub” status with the peons of society is sad. And offensive.

There are endless ways to succeed at life. On many different timelines. Anyone who thinks it’s MBB-or-just is truly uneducated about life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

NP. Because it underestimates the life-long value of an Ivy education, including name recognition, network, and all the assumptions that come with that.

Also, yours is a perfect example of anxiety-driven, all-or-nothing catastrophic thinking. Textbook “how not to do life.”

To state the obvious, there are a million options between MBB and being unemployed. And your fear of immediately plummeting to “schlub” status with the peons of society is sad. And offensive.

There are endless ways to succeed at life. On many different timelines. Anyone who thinks it’s MBB-or-just is truly uneducated about life.

My point may have been a bit exaggerated, and I don't want to discount your excellent arguments above, but I maintain that the opportunity cost of not doing well in OCR is quite substantial, and bad grades are a barrier to that. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be so much pressure to grade inflate. Sure, you can put together a good career without MBB/IB/whatever as your first job, but it's easier with it, and an ivy undergrad gives you a leg up on that if your grades are good. You can leave that money on the table, but that's an opportunity cost by definition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m guessing this varies widely by sector or even business. I (humanities major, jobs in editing) have never once been asked for my gpa or a transcript, for internships or jobs. DH (electrical engineering major, jobs in tech fields) went to internship fairs where some companies wouldn’t even interview students if they didn’t have a 3.5 or better.

For every major, finding an internship/coop it matters! If you don't have a 3.0+, most are not even looking at you, for others it is 3.5+. So sure "Cs get degrees" is true, and eventually you will find a job. But much easier if you can land an internship while in college and with a 2.8 that is not easy to do

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

NP. Because it underestimates the life-long value of an Ivy education, including name recognition, network, and all the assumptions that come with that.

Also, yours is a perfect example of anxiety-driven, all-or-nothing catastrophic thinking. Textbook “how not to do life.”

To state the obvious, there are a million options between MBB and being unemployed. And your fear of immediately plummeting to “schlub” status with the peons of society is sad. And offensive.

There are endless ways to succeed at life. On many different timelines. Anyone who thinks it’s MBB-or-just is truly uneducated about life.

My point may have been a bit exaggerated, and I don't want to discount your excellent arguments above, but I maintain that the opportunity cost of not doing well in OCR is quite substantial, and bad grades are a barrier to that. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be so much pressure to grade inflate. Sure, you can put together a good career without MBB/IB/whatever as your first job, but it's easier with it, and an ivy undergrad gives you a leg up on that if your grades are good. You can leave that money on the table, but that's an opportunity cost by definition.

All true if your goal is to optimize the amount of money your DC makes in their first job out of college.

Given my life experience and that of my kids’ and their friends, I’d argue that it’s not as hard as you think for an Ivy grad to “put together a good career,” with or without MBB/IB. This assumes they have initiative and drive and are willing to think for themselves rather than try to follow the crowd, which I hope/assume they do at this point in their education and development.

As for the opportunity cost of leaving the extra $25-50k “on the table” those first few years, I hear you. If you’re optimizing for early income, that is true.

Although again, my life experience and that of my kids and their friends tells me that the extra income will go to taxes and additional spending (more expensive housing, travel, and nights out) rather than to saving/investments that will compound into $1M extra over time. 23 year olds who are flush with cash (and surrounded by similar peers), tend to behave like … 23 year olds.

Finally, there’s also an “opportunity cost” to four years of sacrificing the extra social/downtime in college for the sake of chasing a 4.0 rather than cruising to a 3.5. It may not be quantifiable in dollars, but it takes a toll on everything from relationship-building (social, romantic, and professional (future networks)) to mental health (continuing to chase “perfection” in an attempt to reduce risk to zero, which is, of course, impossible.)

Everyone is different, of course. But to me and my kids, that second type opportunity cost was far greater than chasing the 4.0 and the goal of MBB/IB etc. during ages 18-23. And again, it worked out quite well for us all. Not the same path, but one that has brought similar financial gains/security as well as a rich life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

NP. Because it underestimates the life-long value of an Ivy education, including name recognition, network, and all the assumptions that come with that.

Also, yours is a perfect example of anxiety-driven, all-or-nothing catastrophic thinking. Textbook “how not to do life.”

To state the obvious, there are a million options between MBB and being unemployed. And your fear of immediately plummeting to “schlub” status with the peons of society is sad. And offensive.

There are endless ways to succeed at life. On many different timelines. Anyone who thinks it’s MBB-or-just is truly uneducated about life.

My point may have been a bit exaggerated, and I don't want to discount your excellent arguments above, but I maintain that the opportunity cost of not doing well in OCR is quite substantial, and bad grades are a barrier to that. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be so much pressure to grade inflate. Sure, you can put together a good career without MBB/IB/whatever as your first job, but it's easier with it, and an ivy undergrad gives you a leg up on that if your grades are good. You can leave that money on the table, but that's an opportunity cost by definition.

Grade inflation in college is less about OCR and more about b extension of the college admissions rat race.

These poor kids who end up at T25 schools have been conditioned since age 13 (if not earlier) that they need to have as close to a 4.0 as possible to get into a “good school.”

That mindset doesn’t just disappear when they get to college five years later. It’s hardwired in to their view of the world. (In a few words: fearful, anxious, and risk-averse.)

College grade inflation is in part a response to these increasingly fragile kids (brilliant though they are) and their parents, who together have come to believe that anything less than perfect or optimal equals failure. 😢

This is the opposite of emotional resilience. OCR is the least of it. Our kids deserve better from us as parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Which schools allow freshman to take 5 classes Fall semester. That seems very unusual. Can your kid drop one? There is no prize for taking the heaviest course load as a freshman. This isn't a public high school. Seriously. There isn't. The prize is a bad GPA.

Is that a thing? My daughter is a theater production manager at Fordham and had 5 classes (18 credits) plus a non-credit bearing practicum that she has to do 40 hours a semester (for 5 semesters). She pulled a 3.85 her fall semester. Spring she had the same course load and gpa was more around a 3.4. This semester, again with the 5 classes and 18 credits. (The theater classes often are 4 credits because of the amount of outside class work required.). She says it is normal there so that she can go abroad one semester and work internships her senior year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

NP. Because it underestimates the life-long value of an Ivy education, including name recognition, network, and all the assumptions that come with that.

Also, yours is a perfect example of anxiety-driven, all-or-nothing catastrophic thinking. Textbook “how not to do life.”

To state the obvious, there are a million options between MBB and being unemployed. And your fear of immediately plummeting to “schlub” status with the peons of society is sad. And offensive.

There are endless ways to succeed at life. On many different timelines. Anyone who thinks it’s MBB-or-just is truly uneducated about life.

My point may have been a bit exaggerated, and I don't want to discount your excellent arguments above, but I maintain that the opportunity cost of not doing well in OCR is quite substantial, and bad grades are a barrier to that. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be so much pressure to grade inflate. Sure, you can put together a good career without MBB/IB/whatever as your first job, but it's easier with it, and an ivy undergrad gives you a leg up on that if your grades are good. You can leave that money on the table, but that's an opportunity cost by definition.

All true if your goal is to optimize the amount of money your DC makes in their first job out of college.

Given my life experience and that of my kids’ and their friends, I’d argue that it’s not as hard as you think for an Ivy grad to “put together a good career,” with or without MBB/IB. This assumes they have initiative and drive and are willing to think for themselves rather than try to follow the crowd, which I hope/assume they do at this point in their education and development.

As for the opportunity cost of leaving the extra $25-50k “on the table” those first few years, I hear you. If you’re optimizing for early income, that is true.

Although again, my life experience and that of my kids and their friends tells me that the extra income will go to taxes and additional spending (more expensive housing, travel, and nights out) rather than to saving/investments that will compound into $1M extra over time. 23 year olds who are flush with cash (and surrounded by similar peers), tend to behave like … 23 year olds.

Finally, there’s also an “opportunity cost” to four years of sacrificing the extra social/downtime in college for the sake of chasing a 4.0 rather than cruising to a 3.5. It may not be quantifiable in dollars, but it takes a toll on everything from relationship-building (social, romantic, and professional (future networks)) to mental health (continuing to chase “perfection” in an attempt to reduce risk to zero, which is, of course, impossible.)

Everyone is different, of course. But to me and my kids, that second type opportunity cost was far greater than chasing the 4.0 and the goal of MBB/IB etc. during ages 18-23. And again, it worked out quite well for us all. Not the same path, but one that has brought similar financial gains/security as well as a rich life.

All true. But the other thing I would mention is that I am not sure there is that much relationship between how hard you work and what grades you get once you are at college. Grades are increasingly a reflection of ability rather than brute force...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought ivys were grade inflated

They are but OP's kid is still "struggling". How about that...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

NP. Because it underestimates the life-long value of an Ivy education, including name recognition, network, and all the assumptions that come with that.

Also, yours is a perfect example of anxiety-driven, all-or-nothing catastrophic thinking. Textbook “how not to do life.”

To state the obvious, there are a million options between MBB and being unemployed. And your fear of immediately plummeting to “schlub” status with the peons of society is sad. And offensive.

There are endless ways to succeed at life. On many different timelines. Anyone who thinks it’s MBB-or-just is truly uneducated about life.

My point may have been a bit exaggerated, and I don't want to discount your excellent arguments above, but I maintain that the opportunity cost of not doing well in OCR is quite substantial, and bad grades are a barrier to that. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be so much pressure to grade inflate. Sure, you can put together a good career without MBB/IB/whatever as your first job, but it's easier with it, and an ivy undergrad gives you a leg up on that if your grades are good. You can leave that money on the table, but that's an opportunity cost by definition.

All true if your goal is to optimize the amount of money your DC makes in their first job out of college.

Given my life experience and that of my kids’ and their friends, I’d argue that it’s not as hard as you think for an Ivy grad to “put together a good career,” with or without MBB/IB. This assumes they have initiative and drive and are willing to think for themselves rather than try to follow the crowd, which I hope/assume they do at this point in their education and development.

As for the opportunity cost of leaving the extra $25-50k “on the table” those first few years, I hear you. If you’re optimizing for early income, that is true.

Although again, my life experience and that of my kids and their friends tells me that the extra income will go to taxes and additional spending (more expensive housing, travel, and nights out) rather than to saving/investments that will compound into $1M extra over time. 23 year olds who are flush with cash (and surrounded by similar peers), tend to behave like … 23 year olds.

Finally, there’s also an “opportunity cost” to four years of sacrificing the extra social/downtime in college for the sake of chasing a 4.0 rather than cruising to a 3.5. It may not be quantifiable in dollars, but it takes a toll on everything from relationship-building (social, romantic, and professional (future networks)) to mental health (continuing to chase “perfection” in an attempt to reduce risk to zero, which is, of course, impossible.)

Everyone is different, of course. But to me and my kids, that second type opportunity cost was far greater than chasing the 4.0 and the goal of MBB/IB etc. during ages 18-23. And again, it worked out quite well for us all. Not the same path, but one that has brought similar financial gains/security as well as a rich life.

Mental health can cut both ways though. The pressure to get good grades can degrade your mental health, but bad mental health can degrade your gpa. Having a lower GPA at an ivy because you prioritized your mental health - yes, you'll probably do more than fine. Having a lower GPA at an ivy because you DIDN'T prioritize your mental health - you're going to struggle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

NP. Because it underestimates the life-long value of an Ivy education, including name recognition, network, and all the assumptions that come with that.

Also, yours is a perfect example of anxiety-driven, all-or-nothing catastrophic thinking. Textbook “how not to do life.”

To state the obvious, there are a million options between MBB and being unemployed. And your fear of immediately plummeting to “schlub” status with the peons of society is sad. And offensive.

There are endless ways to succeed at life. On many different timelines. Anyone who thinks it’s MBB-or-just is truly uneducated about life.

My point may have been a bit exaggerated, and I don't want to discount your excellent arguments above, but I maintain that the opportunity cost of not doing well in OCR is quite substantial, and bad grades are a barrier to that. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be so much pressure to grade inflate. Sure, you can put together a good career without MBB/IB/whatever as your first job, but it's easier with it, and an ivy undergrad gives you a leg up on that if your grades are good. You can leave that money on the table, but that's an opportunity cost by definition.

All true if your goal is to optimize the amount of money your DC makes in their first job out of college.

Given my life experience and that of my kids’ and their friends, I’d argue that it’s not as hard as you think for an Ivy grad to “put together a good career,” with or without MBB/IB. This assumes they have initiative and drive and are willing to think for themselves rather than try to follow the crowd, which I hope/assume they do at this point in their education and development.

As for the opportunity cost of leaving the extra $25-50k “on the table” those first few years, I hear you. If you’re optimizing for early income, that is true.

Although again, my life experience and that of my kids and their friends tells me that the extra income will go to taxes and additional spending (more expensive housing, travel, and nights out) rather than to saving/investments that will compound into $1M extra over time. 23 year olds who are flush with cash (and surrounded by similar peers), tend to behave like … 23 year olds.

Finally, there’s also an “opportunity cost” to four years of sacrificing the extra social/downtime in college for the sake of chasing a 4.0 rather than cruising to a 3.5. It may not be quantifiable in dollars, but it takes a toll on everything from relationship-building (social, romantic, and professional (future networks)) to mental health (continuing to chase “perfection” in an attempt to reduce risk to zero, which is, of course, impossible.)

Everyone is different, of course. But to me and my kids, that second type opportunity cost was far greater than chasing the 4.0 and the goal of MBB/IB etc. during ages 18-23. And again, it worked out quite well for us all. Not the same path, but one that has brought similar financial gains/security as well as a rich life.

Mental health can cut both ways though. The pressure to get good grades can degrade your mental health, but bad mental health can degrade your gpa. Having a lower GPA at an ivy because you prioritized your mental health - yes, you'll probably do more than fine. Having a lower GPA at an ivy because you DIDN'T prioritize your mental health - you're going to struggle.

I don’t understand your logic. How would grinding for the 4.0 to the exclusion of socializing help a kid’s mental health?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people really need to give it a rest. If your kid was driven enough in high school to get themselves into an Ivy they don't need mommy getting so into the weeds of their classes that they know they're "struggling" in two classes and are already worrying -- one month into the kid's college career -- what the grades are going to be.

Give it a rest man.

And why the need to mention that it's an Ivy, by the way? You couldn't have asked the same question without having to drop that the kid is at an Ivy?

Because a student at say a JMU has a very different range of opportunities available to them than a student at an ivy. It's relevant, so calm down. It would be more relevant if we knew which ivy. Five classes freshman fall = not Harvard.

By your logic grades matter MORE at an Ivy than elsewhere. And that's bullshit.

Your first sentence is likely accurate. There's a huge opportunity cost to getting bad grades at an ivy. You go from a potential recruit at MBB to looking for jobs on indeed like any other schlub. That's a huge incentive to get good grades.

This is insanely uninformed thinking.

How so?

NP. Because it underestimates the life-long value of an Ivy education, including name recognition, network, and all the assumptions that come with that.

Also, yours is a perfect example of anxiety-driven, all-or-nothing catastrophic thinking. Textbook “how not to do life.”

To state the obvious, there are a million options between MBB and being unemployed. And your fear of immediately plummeting to “schlub” status with the peons of society is sad. And offensive.

There are endless ways to succeed at life. On many different timelines. Anyone who thinks it’s MBB-or-just is truly uneducated about life.

My point may have been a bit exaggerated, and I don't want to discount your excellent arguments above, but I maintain that the opportunity cost of not doing well in OCR is quite substantial, and bad grades are a barrier to that. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be so much pressure to grade inflate. Sure, you can put together a good career without MBB/IB/whatever as your first job, but it's easier with it, and an ivy undergrad gives you a leg up on that if your grades are good. You can leave that money on the table, but that's an opportunity cost by definition.

All true if your goal is to optimize the amount of money your DC makes in their first job out of college.

Given my life experience and that of my kids’ and their friends, I’d argue that it’s not as hard as you think for an Ivy grad to “put together a good career,” with or without MBB/IB. This assumes they have initiative and drive and are willing to think for themselves rather than try to follow the crowd, which I hope/assume they do at this point in their education and development.

As for the opportunity cost of leaving the extra $25-50k “on the table” those first few years, I hear you. If you’re optimizing for early income, that is true.

Although again, my life experience and that of my kids and their friends tells me that the extra income will go to taxes and additional spending (more expensive housing, travel, and nights out) rather than to saving/investments that will compound into $1M extra over time. 23 year olds who are flush with cash (and surrounded by similar peers), tend to behave like … 23 year olds.

Finally, there’s also an “opportunity cost” to four years of sacrificing the extra social/downtime in college for the sake of chasing a 4.0 rather than cruising to a 3.5. It may not be quantifiable in dollars, but it takes a toll on everything from relationship-building (social, romantic, and professional (future networks)) to mental health (continuing to chase “perfection” in an attempt to reduce risk to zero, which is, of course, impossible.)

Everyone is different, of course. But to me and my kids, that second type opportunity cost was far greater than chasing the 4.0 and the goal of MBB/IB etc. during ages 18-23. And again, it worked out quite well for us all. Not the same path, but one that has brought similar financial gains/security as well as a rich life.

Mental health can cut both ways though. The pressure to get good grades can degrade your mental health, but bad mental health can degrade your gpa. Having a lower GPA at an ivy because you prioritized your mental health - yes, you'll probably do more than fine. Having a lower GPA at an ivy because you DIDN'T prioritize your mental health - you're going to struggle.

I think you are confusing correlation with causation.

Given what you describe, it sounds to me like the risk to GPA stays constant either way, while the risk to mental health goes down in the second scenario. (No guarantee of good mental health. But pretty clear elimination of one aspect of risk (academic burnout) and increase of at least one positive factor (more time spent on relationships with other people).

Specifically:

- Succumbing to the pressure to use marginal free time to optimize your GPA in an attempt to eliminate the risk of a suboptimal (though not actually bad) first job outcome;

=

Increased risk of poor mental health + unclear GPA (could be a 4.0 or could be lower due to burnout/anxiety/mental health issues);

VS.

- Rejecting the pressure to use marginal free time to optimize your GPA in an attempt to eliminate the risk of a suboptimal (though not actually bad) outcome;

=

better mental health due to time spent on social life, relationships, and clubs/activities + unclear GPA (could be a 4.0 or could be far less due to distractions and loss of focus.)