Why does ECNL allow cheap overly aggressive play

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could ECNL stop "allowing" it? Are you saying ECNL refs aren't calling fouls the same way that GA refs do?

I don't think ECNL, as a league, is doing anything to encourage rough play. In my observation, the clubs in ECNL just play more physical, and so others respond, and it's a natural cycle toward aggressive play. Fouls are called normally, cards are given, but they continue if it's their best chance to win. The root cause is just that these players are hyper-competitive, willing to risk their bodies to win. When these teams play outside ECNL, teams from other leagues are shocked. But honestly, it works.

Watching pro soccer, I think you're wrong that the play isn't this physical. It's just that you usually only see the very physical play when stakes are high. A lot of ECNL girls are playing every game like it's the World Cup. That does seem silly for a pro, thinking of injuries, but I think a lot of coaches are riding the players to play that hard all the time. You'd have to convince the players that their spot in the lineup isn't at risk, and their chance at playing in college isn't at risk with every game.

Given similar incentives in GA, how do you think they are preventing teams getting into a feedback loop of rough play?

In this situation everyone expected the "hard play" so it wasn't anything our team wasn't ready for. Being aggressive and playing the body instead of the ball is what caused the top team to lose. The problem with this is theres more goons than there is talented players. So while a more talented team can beat a bunch of goons in a one off game. If the entire league is goons teams that try to play with skill wont be successful long term because skill takes longer to develop and everyone will get hurt.

It’s also a lot harder to develop skill when the refs let the rough stuff go. If the leagues pushed the refs to call tighter games, coaches would coach differently and select different players.

This. It’s not the league, it is the refs. I’m absolutely shocked at what refs around here allow. I grew up in Germany, and 90% of the plays that draw a yellow here would draw a straight red there. Same thing for regular fouls here, would be yellow cards there.

It’s like watching SEC vs ACC basketball.

This is true. If the referee called the game properly, some teams would have multiple players booked every game, with some receiving straight reds for violent conduct.

If this is the case why allow your kid to get beat up playing this way?

They're not going to get more skilled. If anything they'll just learn how to "fight" better.

Pro teams dont need goons. They need skill because the camera is watching every move.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could ECNL stop "allowing" it? Are you saying ECNL refs aren't calling fouls the same way that GA refs do?

I don't think ECNL, as a league, is doing anything to encourage rough play. In my observation, the clubs in ECNL just play more physical, and so others respond, and it's a natural cycle toward aggressive play. Fouls are called normally, cards are given, but they continue if it's their best chance to win. The root cause is just that these players are hyper-competitive, willing to risk their bodies to win. When these teams play outside ECNL, teams from other leagues are shocked. But honestly, it works.

Watching pro soccer, I think you're wrong that the play isn't this physical. It's just that you usually only see the very physical play when stakes are high. A lot of ECNL girls are playing every game like it's the World Cup. That does seem silly for a pro, thinking of injuries, but I think a lot of coaches are riding the players to play that hard all the time. You'd have to convince the players that their spot in the lineup isn't at risk, and their chance at playing in college isn't at risk with every game.

Given similar incentives in GA, how do you think they are preventing teams getting into a feedback loop of rough play?

In this situation everyone expected the "hard play" so it wasn't anything our team wasn't ready for. Being aggressive and playing the body instead of the ball is what caused the top team to lose. The problem with this is theres more goons than there is talented players. So while a more talented team can beat a bunch of goons in a one off game. If the entire league is goons teams that try to play with skill wont be successful long term because skill takes longer to develop and everyone will get hurt.

It’s also a lot harder to develop skill when the refs let the rough stuff go. If the leagues pushed the refs to call tighter games, coaches would coach differently and select different players.

This. It’s not the league, it is the refs. I’m absolutely shocked at what refs around here allow. I grew up in Germany, and 90% of the plays that draw a yellow here would draw a straight red there. Same thing for regular fouls here, would be yellow cards there.

It’s like watching SEC vs ACC basketball.

This is true. If the referee called the game properly, some teams would have multiple players booked every game, with some receiving straight reds for violent conduct.

If this is the case why allow your kid to get beat up playing this way?

They're not going to get more skilled. If anything they'll just learn how to "fight" better.

Pro teams dont need goons. They need skill because the camera is watching every move.

I read this three times. It makes almost no sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids GA team was playing in an ECNL clubs tournament (beat a very good ECNL team and lost by a goal to an ok ECNL team). It was clearly obvious that ECNL players relied on cheap shots and fighting type tactics over skill. Why do parents put up with this type of behavior? Putting your kid through a gladiator cage when they're young wont make them better. It will make them get hurt earlier in their career which very likely will affect their chances to play in college or professionally.

One teams center defender was so dirty all she was doing was trying to hurt other players. One time after getting burned she dove head first into one of our players knees trying to take her out. I'd never seen such a blatant red card get completely ignored before. Later she did something similar which hurt one our players and she received a yellow. This kind of play needs to be addressed. You dont see it in the pros why is it allowed in youth soccer? If its allowed other clubs will find their own enforcer and over time it becomes 80s hockey with kids.

It just seems stupid to me to let kids get hurt by allowing play that the pros dont even allow.

Diving headfirst into the knees? lol that’s a good way to knock herself out lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could ECNL stop "allowing" it? Are you saying ECNL refs aren't calling fouls the same way that GA refs do?

I don't think ECNL, as a league, is doing anything to encourage rough play. In my observation, the clubs in ECNL just play more physical, and so others respond, and it's a natural cycle toward aggressive play. Fouls are called normally, cards are given, but they continue if it's their best chance to win. The root cause is just that these players are hyper-competitive, willing to risk their bodies to win. When these teams play outside ECNL, teams from other leagues are shocked. But honestly, it works.

Watching pro soccer, I think you're wrong that the play isn't this physical. It's just that you usually only see the very physical play when stakes are high. A lot of ECNL girls are playing every game like it's the World Cup. That does seem silly for a pro, thinking of injuries, but I think a lot of coaches are riding the players to play that hard all the time. You'd have to convince the players that their spot in the lineup isn't at risk, and their chance at playing in college isn't at risk with every game.

Given similar incentives in GA, how do you think they are preventing teams getting into a feedback loop of rough play?

In this situation everyone expected the "hard play" so it wasn't anything our team wasn't ready for. Being aggressive and playing the body instead of the ball is what caused the top team to lose. The problem with this is theres more goons than there is talented players. So while a more talented team can beat a bunch of goons in a one off game. If the entire league is goons teams that try to play with skill wont be successful long term because skill takes longer to develop and everyone will get hurt.

It’s also a lot harder to develop skill when the refs let the rough stuff go. If the leagues pushed the refs to call tighter games, coaches would coach differently and select different players.

This. It’s not the league, it is the refs. I’m absolutely shocked at what refs around here allow. I grew up in Germany, and 90% of the plays that draw a yellow here would draw a straight red there. Same thing for regular fouls here, would be yellow cards there.

It’s like watching SEC vs ACC basketball.

This is true. If the referee called the game properly, some teams would have multiple players booked every game, with some receiving straight reds for violent conduct.

If this is the case why allow your kid to get beat up playing this way?

They're not going to get more skilled. If anything they'll just learn how to "fight" better.

Pro teams dont need goons. They need skill because the camera is watching every move.

I read this three times. It makes almost no sense.

What part doesn't make sense?

That learning how to "fight" isn't a desirable (or shouldn't be a desirable) "skill" in youth soccer?

Or, that pro teams aren't on the lookout for goons?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids GA team was playing in an ECNL clubs tournament (beat a very good ECNL team and lost by a goal to an ok ECNL team). It was clearly obvious that ECNL players relied on cheap shots and fighting type tactics over skill. Why do parents put up with this type of behavior? Putting your kid through a gladiator cage when they're young wont make them better. It will make them get hurt earlier in their career which very likely will affect their chances to play in college or professionally.

One teams center defender was so dirty all she was doing was trying to hurt other players. One time after getting burned she dove head first into one of our players knees trying to take her out. I'd never seen such a blatant red card get completely ignored before. Later she did something similar which hurt one our players and she received a yellow. This kind of play needs to be addressed. You dont see it in the pros why is it allowed in youth soccer? If its allowed other clubs will find their own enforcer and over time it becomes 80s hockey with kids.

It just seems stupid to me to let kids get hurt by allowing play that the pros dont even allow.

Diving headfirst into the knees? lol that’s a good way to knock herself out lol

I thought the same thing. It was impressive that she had the guts to do something like that but it was easy to see that 20-30% of the time it would injure the other player and 20% of the time she would injure herself.

The ref not giving a red card was ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can absolutely confirm ECNL teams headhunt super talented kids to hurt them and nock them out of games.

Big kids playing boot ball should be the motto.

So, maybe the girls leagues should also adopt the point system that MLSN is trying?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can absolutely confirm ECNL teams headhunt super talented kids to hurt them and nock them out of games.

Big kids playing boot ball should be the motto.

I don't believe you. Why, because if this was true any sensible parent would remove their child from a team whose coach does this and would report it directly to the club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can absolutely confirm ECNL teams headhunt super talented kids to hurt them and nock them out of games.

Big kids playing boot ball should be the motto.

I don't believe you. Why, because if this was true any sensible parent would remove their child from a team whose coach does this and would report it directly to the club.

Your child clearly does not play for a top team then. Most girls on these teams relish playing that YNT call-up and showing them they are nothing special. This leads to overaggressive play especially if there is a gap in quality, which their almost always is in this example. Add a coach who encourages pushing the boundaries and its a match where no one in complaining to parents about the coach. The talented technical players get kicked out of the game. Leading to coaches wanting bigger and more durable players who don;t have the technical ability to play fast with the ball on the deck so you have what we see in ECNL play, sadly predictable.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, the choice of what constitutes a "dirty" foul or overly-physical play varies from one ref to the next. All the leagues use the same referee pool, so my guess is you found one who believes in letting the kids play as opposed to the other extreme where there is no flow at all because they whistle every time kids touch each other.

[Anonymous]

It's definitely not league specific. My ECNL daughter was blind-sided and concussed by a GA girl.

They all play rough at this level, the less skilled seem to play dirtier to compensate. The refs need to keep it in check.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can absolutely confirm ECNL teams headhunt super talented kids to hurt them and nock them out of games.

Big kids playing boot ball should be the motto.

I don't believe you. Why, because if this was true any sensible parent would remove their child from a team whose coach does this and would report it directly to the club.

Your child clearly does not play for a top team then. Most girls on these teams relish playing that YNT call-up and showing them they are nothing special. This leads to overaggressive play especially if there is a gap in quality, which their almost always is in this example. Add a coach who encourages pushing the boundaries and its a match where no one in complaining to parents about the coach. The talented technical players get kicked out of the game. Leading to coaches wanting bigger and more durable players who don;t have the technical ability to play fast with the ball on the deck so you have what we see in ECNL play, sadly predictable.

My daughter plays on a solid GA team that has beaten ECNL teams. Never seen anything like that. I've seen physical play that doesn't seem to be dependent upon what league they are in. Naturally the higher level league will have stronger more aggressive players though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can absolutely confirm ECNL teams headhunt super talented kids to hurt them and nock them out of games.

Big kids playing boot ball should be the motto.

I don't believe you. Why, because if this was true any sensible parent would remove their child from a team whose coach does this and would report it directly to the club.

Your child clearly does not play for a top team then. Most girls on these teams relish playing that YNT call-up and showing them they are nothing special. This leads to overaggressive play especially if there is a gap in quality, which their almost always is in this example. Add a coach who encourages pushing the boundaries and its a match where no one in complaining to parents about the coach. The talented technical players get kicked out of the game. Leading to coaches wanting bigger and more durable players who don;t have the technical ability to play fast with the ball on the deck so you have what we see in ECNL play, sadly predictable.

This is exactly my assessment as well.

ECNL needs to spent time educating refs about what dangerous play looks like. They also need to stand behind their refs when a decision is made. I get the meathead allure of going so hard that you hurt others. But, this is counter productive to getting players into the next level if theyre all hurt and cant play any longer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How could ECNL stop "allowing" it? Are you saying ECNL refs aren't calling fouls the same way that GA refs do?

I don't think ECNL, as a league, is doing anything to encourage rough play. In my observation, the clubs in ECNL just play more physical, and so others respond, and it's a natural cycle toward aggressive play. Fouls are called normally, cards are given, but they continue if it's their best chance to win. The root cause is just that these players are hyper-competitive, willing to risk their bodies to win. When these teams play outside ECNL, teams from other leagues are shocked. But honestly, it works.

Watching pro soccer, I think you're wrong that the play isn't this physical. It's just that you usually only see the very physical play when stakes are high. A lot of ECNL girls are playing every game like it's the World Cup. That does seem silly for a pro, thinking of injuries, but I think a lot of coaches are riding the players to play that hard all the time. You'd have to convince the players that their spot in the lineup isn't at risk, and their chance at playing in college isn't at risk with every game.

Given similar incentives in GA, how do you think they are preventing teams getting into a feedback loop of rough play?

In this situation everyone expected the "hard play" so it wasn't anything our team wasn't ready for. Being aggressive and playing the body instead of the ball is what caused the top team to lose. The problem with this is theres more goons than there is talented players. So while a more talented team can beat a bunch of goons in a one off game. If the entire league is goons teams that try to play with skill wont be successful long term because skill takes longer to develop and everyone will get hurt.

It’s also a lot harder to develop skill when the refs let the rough stuff go. If the leagues pushed the refs to call tighter games, coaches would coach differently and select different players.

This. It’s not the league, it is the refs. I’m absolutely shocked at what refs around here allow. I grew up in Germany, and 90% of the plays that draw a yellow here would draw a straight red there. Same thing for regular fouls here, would be yellow cards there.

It’s like watching SEC vs ACC basketball.

And if the refs call it tighter, they'll have parents and coaches shouting "let them play" all game instead. Refs can never win around here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can absolutely confirm ECNL teams headhunt super talented kids to hurt them and nock them out of games.

Big kids playing boot ball should be the motto.

I don't believe you. Why, because if this was true any sensible parent would remove their child from a team whose coach does this and would report it directly to the club.

Your child clearly does not play for a top team then. Most girls on these teams relish playing that YNT call-up and showing them they are nothing special. This leads to overaggressive play especially if there is a gap in quality, which their almost always is in this example. Add a coach who encourages pushing the boundaries and its a match where no one in complaining to parents about the coach. The talented technical players get kicked out of the game. Leading to coaches wanting bigger and more durable players who don;t have the technical ability to play fast with the ball on the deck so you have what we see in ECNL play, sadly predictable.

This is exactly my assessment as well.

ECNL needs to spent time educating refs about what dangerous play looks like. They also need to stand behind their refs when a decision is made. I get the meathead allure of going so hard that you hurt
others. But, this is counter productive to getting players into the next level if theyre all hurt and cant play any longer.

There are not ECNL refs, GA refs, etc. Refs are certified by a state association and the same refs officiate ECNL games, GA games, MLSN games, state association games. The assignors are going to put out the games and the best refs are going to signup for games that a) pay them the most and b) require least travel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can absolutely confirm ECNL teams headhunt super talented kids to hurt them and nock them out of games.

Big kids playing boot ball should be the motto.

I don't believe you. Why, because if this was true any sensible parent would remove their child from a team whose coach does this and would report it directly to the club.

Your child clearly does not play for a top team then. Most girls on these teams relish playing that YNT call-up and showing them they are nothing special. This leads to overaggressive play especially if there is a gap in quality, which their almost always is in this example. Add a coach who encourages pushing the boundaries and its a match where no one in complaining to parents about the coach. The talented technical players get kicked out of the game. Leading to coaches wanting bigger and more durable players who don;t have the technical ability to play fast with the ball on the deck so you have what we see in ECNL play, sadly predictable.

This is exactly my assessment as well.

ECNL needs to spent time educating refs about what dangerous play looks like. They also need to stand behind their refs when a decision is made. I get the meathead allure of going so hard that you hurt
others. But, this is counter productive to getting players into the next level if theyre all hurt and cant play any longer.

There are not ECNL refs, GA refs, etc. Refs are certified by a state association and the same refs officiate ECNL games, GA games, MLSN games, state association games. The assignors are going to put out the games and the best refs are going to signup for games that a) pay them the most and b) require least travel.

Offer more money for ECNL games but require passing a certification program that defines league expections for calls and player safety.

Seems easy to address