Should my kid bail on DOJ Honors

[Anonymous]

I was a DOJ honor grad back in the 90s---started out at what was the INS and then went on to be an AUSA. My DOJ career post-INS was focused on appellate litigation, and I had a lot of autonomy and a great life/work balance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

They are fine options. Just because it isn't Crim Div or OIA doesn't mean it isn't the best opportunity for OP's kid, above and beyond "big law and lit boutiques."

OP here - those are what he applied for because that’s what he finds interesting. Doesn’t want to be a prosecutor. But if those are his interests, maybe DOJ is not for him?

What is going on here? Why are you so desperately fishing for a way to tell him to drop this opportunity? Are you just really ignorant and see irresistible dollar signs with the big law gigs? DOJ HP is not an opportunity to walk away from lightly.

[Anonymous]

You sound like a great mom. I’m at DOJ currently and think he should definitely pursue the honors gig. It will look great on his resume forever and will open doors for him. Even better, it will give him the opportunity to try DOJ out and see if it’s for him.

The PP who said it’s difficult to go from a firm to DOJ is right, and if he wants to try this later, he likely will interrupt his career to do it. This is the time for him to try this out. All upside and he will not be affected by the new administration in those spots. Plus, the network he’ll establish while at DOJ will pay dividends for the rest of his career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

They are fine options. Just because it isn't Crim Div or OIA doesn't mean it isn't the best opportunity for OP's kid, above and beyond "big law and lit boutiques."

OP here - those are what he applied for because that’s what he finds interesting. Doesn’t want to be a prosecutor. But if those are his interests, maybe DOJ is not for him?

If he doesn’t want to be a prosecutor,and doesn’t have a focus like appeals, in my opinion, he should skip DOJ. What does he want to do? The bankruptcy trustee is as dull as dishwater. Don’t have him do that. Does he want to do appellate work?

My husband was at DOJ for 12 years and when he went to a firm he went in as a partner and got a signing bonus and a bonus for his long ago clerkship. It really depends on the trajectory. His time at DOJ was much tougher than his big law partnership, just FYI. It’s hard work in a lot of the sections.

Ok, wifey, how about you let your DH with the actual DOJ experience comment.

You clearly have no firsthand knowledge of any of this. Plenty of fascinating work with the USTP (which you seem to want to call "the bankruptcy trustee" lol). Pretty much every area of law touches bankruptcy.

[Anonymous]

[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

They are fine options. Just because it isn't Crim Div or OIA doesn't mean it isn't the best opportunity for OP's kid, above and beyond "big law and lit boutiques."

OP here - those are what he applied for because that’s what he finds interesting. Doesn’t want to be a prosecutor. But if those are his interests, maybe DOJ is not for him?

If he doesn’t want to be a prosecutor,and doesn’t have a focus like appeals, in my opinion, he should skip DOJ. What does he want to do? The bankruptcy trustee is as dull as dishwater. Don’t have him do that. Does he want to do appellate work?

My husband was at DOJ for 12 years and when he went to a firm he went in as a partner and got a signing bonus and a bonus for his long ago clerkship. It really depends on the trajectory. His time at DOJ was much tougher than his big law partnership, just FYI. It’s hard work in a lot of the sections.

Ok, wifey, how about you let your DH with the actual DOJ experience comment.

You clearly have no firsthand knowledge of any of this. Plenty of fascinating work with the USTP (which you seem to want to call "the bankruptcy trustee" lol). Pretty much every area of law touches bankruptcy.

Ha, I’m also a lawyer, and we litigate against the USTP regularly. Fascinating is a real stretch, come on. You don’t believe that.

[Anonymous]

There isn't really a right or wrong answer here, DOJ or firm.

First, it's ok to interview and say no to an offer. The clerkship thing is unique to clerkship - you aren't supposed to piss off a federal judge. Though I did once turn down a clerkship offer after the judge asked me an illegal interview question about my marital status.

Second, DOJ doesn't automatically mean better hours. The hours at DOJ can be high, too.

Third, does anyone know if DOJ still gives you a higher step if you come in from the private sector? Sometimes you can make more money by going to a firm for a year or two first, getting the salary history, and getting a higher step as a result. But probably he won't be able to do honors program from a firm and it can be hard to get in.

I dunno, since you are middle class, I'd be tempted for him to go to a big law firm and make a lot of money for a few years. But DOJ Honors is fine too.

It worries me that he is thinking of down a small firm rather than big law, tho. I feel like it sounds like he is not getting good advice. he needs to find some mentors somehow.
Second,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There isn't really a right or wrong answer here, DOJ or firm.

First, it's ok to interview and say no to an offer. The clerkship thing is unique to clerkship - you aren't supposed to piss off a federal judge. Though I did once turn down a clerkship offer after the judge asked me an illegal interview question about my marital status.

Second, DOJ doesn't automatically mean better hours. The hours at DOJ can be high, too.

Third, does anyone know if DOJ still gives you a higher step if you come in from the private sector? Sometimes you can make more money by going to a firm for a year or two first, getting the salary history, and getting a higher step as a result. But probably he won't be able to do honors program from a firm and it can be hard to get in.

I dunno, since you are middle class, I'd be tempted for him to go to a big law firm and make a lot of money for a few years. But DOJ Honors is fine too.

It worries me that he is thinking of down a small firm rather than big law, tho. I feel like it sounds like he is not getting good advice. he needs to find some mentors somehow.
Second,

Why would you be worried about someone choosing a lit boutique vs big law? Real lit boutiques pay at or higher than Cravath scale, generally have more responsibility for junior associates, and have better pathways to partner.

[Anonymous]

DOJ honors is a feather in the cap in an industry intensely focused on prestige and a great way to get actual litigation experience. He’s be an absolute fool not to take an offer. Do it for 3 years and then he can exit with great prospects to a firm. As an apprenticeship it will pay less than BigLaw; but as an actual learning opportunity and resume builder, it’s impossible to compare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There isn't really a right or wrong answer here, DOJ or firm.

First, it's ok to interview and say no to an offer. The clerkship thing is unique to clerkship - you aren't supposed to piss off a federal judge. Though I did once turn down a clerkship offer after the judge asked me an illegal interview question about my marital status.

Second, DOJ doesn't automatically mean better hours. The hours at DOJ can be high, too.

Third, does anyone know if DOJ still gives you a higher step if you come in from the private sector? Sometimes you can make more money by going to a firm for a year or two first, getting the salary history, and getting a higher step as a result. But probably he won't be able to do honors program from a firm and it can be hard to get in.

I dunno, since you are middle class, I'd be tempted for him to go to a big law firm and make a lot of money for a few years. But DOJ Honors is fine too.

It worries me that he is thinking of down a small firm rather than big law, tho. I feel like it sounds like he is not getting good advice. he needs to find some mentors somehow.
Second,

Why would you be worried about someone choosing a lit boutique vs big law? Real lit boutiques pay at or higher than Cravath scale, generally have more responsibility for junior associates, and have better pathways to partner.

No, I sort of agree with PP. It sounds like this kid is not really getting good advice or understanding the pathways that elite law grads take. There are great litigation boutiques but lots of bad small firms - and I think it’s likely much tougher to get a slot at one of the “good” boutiques than Biglaw. Plus the hours are the same, if not more. And also at Biglaw he has the chance to try out different practice areas in case he doesn’t like litigation or finds the hours too long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You sound like a great mom. I’m at DOJ currently and think he should definitely pursue the honors gig. It will look great on his resume forever and will open doors for him. Even better, it will give him the opportunity to try DOJ out and see if it’s for him.

The PP who said it’s difficult to go from a firm to DOJ is right, and if he wants to try this later, he likely will interrupt his career to do it. This is the time for him to try this out. All upside and he will not be affected by the new administration in those spots. Plus, the network he’ll establish while at DOJ will pay dividends for the rest of his career.

Yeah, I think the chances of getting an honors slot out of a firm are low. They want lawyers who really do want to be at DOJ, not careerists just trying to max out bonuses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your son was smart enough to get a federal pellet clerk shit. Let him figure this out for himself. You admit you don’t know anything about it. It’s better he figure this out for himself without help from his mom based on DCurbanmom

'pellet. thanks for the levity!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depends on the section. I wouldn’t go to civil rights or oil right now. I interned in civil rights during the Bush administration and it was career people trying to do their jobs and politicals trying to stop them from doing their jobs. People got demoted by the politicals it was bad.

When you say money is not an issue, are you guys so incredibly wealthy that it doesn’t matter that he could literally make more than triple in the private sector his first year? He could probably get a $100,000 bonus for his clerk ship, at least, and then he would probably start around $300,000 at a big law firm. And possibly get an additional bonus on top of that.

you say you don’t know much about law so I think you should mostly stay out of this decision and let your son make his decisions because I’m sure he knows far far more than you do

+1

[Anonymous]

I am at DOJ now and started my career about 20 years ago in biglaw.

IMHO, anybody who has the choice between DOJ honors and big law when starting their career should go with DOJ honors, unless there is an immediate and pressing need for the big law salary. The training and opportunities for experience are far better at DOJ.

If I could do things over, I would have started my career at DOJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

They are fine options. Just because it isn't Crim Div or OIA doesn't mean it isn't the best opportunity for OP's kid, above and beyond "big law and lit boutiques."

OP here - those are what he applied for because that’s what he finds interesting. Doesn’t want to be a prosecutor. But if those are his interests, maybe DOJ is not for him?

If he doesn’t want to be a prosecutor,and doesn’t have a focus like appeals, in my opinion, he should skip DOJ. What does he want to do? The bankruptcy trustee is as dull as dishwater. Don’t have him do that. Does he want to do appellate work?

My husband was at DOJ for 12 years and when he went to a firm he went in as a partner and got a signing bonus and a bonus for his long ago clerkship. It really depends on the trajectory. His time at DOJ was much tougher than his big law partnership, just FYI. It’s hard work in a lot of the sections.

Ok, wifey, how about you let your DH with the actual DOJ experience comment.

You clearly have no firsthand knowledge of any of this. Plenty of fascinating work with the USTP (which you seem to want to call "the bankruptcy trustee" lol). Pretty much every area of law touches bankruptcy.

Ha, I’m also a lawyer, and we litigate against the USTP regularly. Fascinating is a real stretch, come on. You don’t believe that.

I do.

Perhaps you lack the intelligence and or creativity to see it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There isn't really a right or wrong answer here, DOJ or firm.

First, it's ok to interview and say no to an offer. The clerkship thing is unique to clerkship - you aren't supposed to piss off a federal judge. Though I did once turn down a clerkship offer after the judge asked me an illegal interview question about my marital status.

Second, DOJ doesn't automatically mean better hours. The hours at DOJ can be high, too.

Third, does anyone know if DOJ still gives you a higher step if you come in from the private sector? Sometimes you can make more money by going to a firm for a year or two first, getting the salary history, and getting a higher step as a result. But probably he won't be able to do honors program from a firm and it can be hard to get in.

I dunno, since you are middle class, I'd be tempted for him to go to a big law firm and make a lot of money for a few years. But DOJ Honors is fine too.

It worries me that he is thinking of down a small firm rather than big law, tho. I feel like it sounds like he is not getting good advice. he needs to find some mentors somehow.
Second,

+1000