Should my kid bail on DOJ Honors

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, absolutely not. DOJ honors is a really great way to start a legal career. And it’s supposed to be nonpartisan. If he wants to be a do-gooder he can look for a legal aid fellowship and get paid $35k/yr.

Not after this bail op

[Anonymous]

Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son graduated with honors last year from a Top 6 law school and is currently doing a federal appellate clerkship

He didn’t take a BigLaw offer while in school and is now gearing up his job search. Hoping for a boutique litigation firm but also just had interviews with a couple of sections for the DOJ Honors Program

After the election, he’s now thinking about totally bailing on DOJ. Would that be a sensible decision? Not a lawyer, so I have no insight to offer him and am looking for advice

Student loan debt isn’t an issue and he doesn’t have a burning desire for public interest / government service, is focusing on trying to find interesting work with decent work-life balance

Interviews are not offers.

Federal government hiring freeze may be a very legitimate concerns.

No, it would not be a sensible decision as your son currently has no job offers. While it is highly likely that he will receive offers of employment, he should proceed with pursuing all current opportunities that are of interest to him.

If I were your son, I would keep looking for this reason, but I wouldn't bail on DOJ because of the election. He can always say no if he does get an offer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a DOJ HP alum, and I think it is the best legal job you can get. DH is still there, and SES.

There may be be some seismic shifts at the top, but they likely won't affect your DC at all if they manage to get hired.

Tangent: I do get annoyed when I hear this "work life balance!" stuff coming from people looking at DOJ -- within a month or two I had my own docket. Plenty of cases I alone was responsible for. I worked very, very hard. But whatever.

How long do you think dh will remain an ses at DOJ?

I think it is likely. He's career, not political appointee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

They are fine options. Just because it isn't Crim Div or OIA doesn't mean it isn't the best opportunity for OP's kid, above and beyond "big law and lit boutiques."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

They are fine options. Just because it isn't Crim Div or OIA doesn't mean it isn't the best opportunity for OP's kid, above and beyond "big law and lit boutiques."

OP here - those are what he applied for because that’s what he finds interesting. Doesn’t want to be a prosecutor. But if those are his interests, maybe DOJ is not for him?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

They are fine options. Just because it isn't Crim Div or OIA doesn't mean it isn't the best opportunity for OP's kid, above and beyond "big law and lit boutiques."

OP here - those are what he applied for because that’s what he finds interesting. Doesn’t want to be a prosecutor. But if those are his interests, maybe DOJ is not for him?

If he doesn’t want to be a prosecutor,and doesn’t have a focus like appeals, in my opinion, he should skip DOJ. What does he want to do? The bankruptcy trustee is as dull as dishwater. Don’t have him do that. Does he want to do appellate work?

My husband was at DOJ for 12 years and when he went to a firm he went in as a partner and got a signing bonus and a bonus for his long ago clerkship. It really depends on the trajectory. His time at DOJ was much tougher than his big law partnership, just FYI. It’s hard work in a lot of the sections.

[Anonymous]

DOJ honors isn't easy to get into and can lead to a great career in the public or private sector, provided your son can survive on government pay in DC for some years.

[Anonymous]

Big law life altering money that’s what he should pursue while he’s young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your son was smart enough to get a federal pellet clerk shit. Let him figure this out for himself. You admit you don’t know anything about it. It’s better he figure this out for himself without help from his mom based on DCurbanmom

+ 1. Also, it is easy to go from DOJ to a litigation firm. Not so the other way around.

[Anonymous]

If those are his interests that’s a great opportunity and would open up options on private practice afterwards. For instance if he likes commercial lit he could go to a firm later and market his experience in a specialized flier like the court of federal claims. Or bankruptcy if he does bankruptcy section. Firms value DOJ experience and honors program is a great credential to add .

[Anonymous]

DOJ honors is a great start to a career. I’d take it over big law any day. Can always go into big law later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to everyone for their response.

We are a true middle class family (not just DCUM middle class, son got a full scholarship to law school which is why no student loan debt).

He has asked for my advice because he is trying to make a major life decision. But nobody in our family has ever been a lawyer and I don't know anyone who has worked for the DOJ, so I don't feel well-positioned to offer advice which is why I asked my question here. Sorry if I offended with the work/life comment, he's no stranger to working hard, just is holding out hope for a job where 70-80 work weeks aren't the year-round norm.

Sections he interviewed with are Commercial Litigation and (I think) Bankruptcy Trustee. He is at the point where they've asked for references and seem to be moving forward, so he was debating whether now is the time to step out of the process. In the federal clerkship hiring process, his school's doctrine was that students shouldn't continue to pursue a job if they'd decided they wouldn't take it if offered - he was told that was very bad form, though maybe that was just the school trying to preserve its relationship with particular judges. So he was concerned that maybe similar guidelines apply to DOJ Honors hiring.

It is sometimes hard for me to tell him not to take a signing bonus that would be as much as I've ever made in a year, and not to take a BigLaw job that would pay him life-altering money before he turns 30. But I've always told him there's a lot more to life than money and so I am trying to live up to those principles when he asks what I think he should do. Hearing that DOJ is a great way to launch a career that can take him anywhere is very helpful.

I think I will tell him he should still try to land the offer, even if he isn't definite he wants to take it, and he can cross that bridge if/when he comes to it but he shouldn't drop out of the process now. I welcome additional insight and thanks again!

Those aren’t great options for DOJ honors. He should apply to big law and lit boutiques.

They are fine options. Just because it isn't Crim Div or OIA doesn't mean it isn't the best opportunity for OP's kid, above and beyond "big law and lit boutiques."

I disagree. Those are not prestigious sections and the work there is known to be a terrible grind. Huge discovery burden (e-discovery anhhhh!) and months away doing depositions in commercial lit. Just go to a big firm and make $$ and do the same kind of work . Fed programs would be worth it for the honors program. Major cases/issues and key responsibilities right out of the gate. More subject to politics though since they handle the big policy cases for DOJ. Think eg defense of DOMA when I was there during repub admin - tough to handle such a case if your politics don’t line up.

[Anonymous]

I would NOT advise DOJ for commercial lit or bankruptcy!!! I have known many unhappy overworked people in those sections!