to convert or not to convert to the Catholic church

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Try a Lutheran Church and leave the sex abuse behind. I can NOT believe anyone still identifies as Catholic. It's a corrupt institution and always has been.

Lutherans have plenty of issues. For example.

https://www.kxan.com/investigations/at-least-20-allegations-of-abuse-against-former-austin-pastor/amp/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being a part of the Roman Church is an affair of the heart, driven by Faith — a living turning over of self to God — and not a mere intellectual journey. There is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative” Catholicism. There is only a greater or lesser surrender to love personified in the person of Christ.

This.

not this. like literally not - where do you even get that? that sounds more like some non-denominational or evangelical church than Catholicism, the heart of which is actually the sacraments (baptism, marriage, communion) and external obligations (mass, confession).

Unless reception of the sacraments and other activities are driven by an attraction to Divine Perfection, particularly in the person of Christ, and leading toward that infinite reality, they would seem to be rather empty, much like the empty externalities Jesus criticized the Pharisees for.

[Anonymous]

PS: the definition of Faith as a living turning over of self to God is a direct quote from Hans Urs Cardinal von Balthasar, one of the greatest modern theologians, who also observed that “Christian experience is the fruit of a life lived in obedience to faith.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being a part of the Roman Church is an affair of the heart, driven by Faith — a living turning over of self to God — and not a mere intellectual journey. There is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative” Catholicism. There is only a greater or lesser surrender to love personified in the person of Christ.

This.

not this. like literally not - where do you even get that? that sounds more like some non-denominational or evangelical church than Catholicism, the heart of which is actually the sacraments (baptism, marriage, communion) and external obligations (mass, confession).

Unless reception of the sacraments and other activities are driven by an attraction to Divine Perfection, particularly in the person of Christ, and leading toward that infinite reality, they would seem to be rather empty, much like the empty externalities Jesus criticized the Pharisees for.

again where tf is that in Catholic canon law or even run of the mill Catholic belief? that sounds like an evangelical church where you just need to be reborn in Christ. being Catholic is largely external - you get the sacraments, you go to mass, you fall in line with Church teachings. if you want a religion all about talking about how much you love Jesus, it’s not really Catholicism …

[Anonymous]

Try the Episcopal Church instead. I have never felt the pull to convert to Catholicism, my ancestors fled to the US to escape Catholic persecution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I consider myself a liberal Catholic.

I have drifted many times, but I keep coming back as it connects me to my parents (and grandparents, and great-grandparents, etc., etc.) It is the church where I feel most at home.

I struggle terribly with showing up despite the abuse scandal. I feel gratified by the real conversations I've had with priests who are trying to build a better institution. I don't fully know what to do, but I am willing to put in some time to figure it out.

Same. I can't leave, but had I not been born Catholic I know I wouldn't have converted. I often describe myself as hanging on by my fingernails - mostly because I don't want to leave the church to the crazies. I want to stay and work from within on change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being a part of the Roman Church is an affair of the heart, driven by Faith — a living turning over of self to God — and not a mere intellectual journey. There is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative” Catholicism. There is only a greater or lesser surrender to love personified in the person of Christ.

This.

not this. like literally not - where do you even get that? that sounds more like some non-denominational or evangelical church than Catholicism, the heart of which is actually the sacraments (baptism, marriage, communion) and external obligations (mass, confession).

Unless reception of the sacraments and other activities are driven by an attraction to Divine Perfection, particularly in the person of Christ, and leading toward that infinite reality, they would seem to be rather empty, much like the empty externalities Jesus criticized the Pharisees for.

again where tf is that in Catholic canon law or even run of the mill Catholic belief? that sounds like an evangelical church where you just need to be reborn in Christ. being Catholic is largely external - you get the sacraments, you go to mass, you fall in line with Church teachings. if you want a religion all about talking about how much you love Jesus, it’s not really Catholicism …

You might start with the Gospel of St. John.

If you think Catholicism is an external religion, I’m sorry, especially if you profess to be Catholic. The external observances are intended as visible expressions (“signs”) of internal/invisible realities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I consider myself a liberal Catholic.

I have drifted many times, but I keep coming back as it connects me to my parents (and grandparents, and great-grandparents, etc., etc.) It is the church where I feel most at home.

I struggle terribly with showing up despite the abuse scandal. I feel gratified by the real conversations I've had with priests who are trying to build a better institution. I don't fully know what to do, but I am willing to put in some time to figure it out.

Same. I can't leave, but had I not been born Catholic I know I wouldn't have converted. I often describe myself as hanging on by my fingernails - mostly because I don't want to leave the church to the crazies. I want to stay and work from within on change.

I hope you don't have kids that you're raising Catholic. It would be awful for them to suffer as you have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only one who struggles with the pull to the Roman Catholic church, but then recoils in horror at something and says no way ever? (It's not just the abuse crisis and the birth control stuff--although those are pretty much deal-breakers on their own) Intellectually, I love RC books etc.--such a great intellectual tradition and I love the quality control where books get an imprimatur etc.--but then I go to a parish and people (nice people, more virtuous than I am)--they won't engage that tradition...like I'll bring up books by their greatest theologians like Karl Rahner or books by leading Catholic academics--and it's like I'm quoting some forbidden banned book or something. I've heard that the Arlington diocese is the most conservative in the country...but this is where I live. Is being a liberal Catholic even possible today--especially in northern Virginia? I don't even like that word liberal applied to faith--but everything just feels so rigid on the ground.

I felt like this when I was younger, but ultimately I decided that I was chasing a bit of a mirage. Roman Catholicism has a great intellectual traditions, but so do the Protestant churches. Karl Rahner is a genius, but so is Karl Barth. I settled in Anglicanism for other reasons, but the more I explore its intellectual traditions, the more beauty and truth I find. What attracted me to Catholicism was the history, because a lot of Protestants don't engage with their history much, but neither do a lot of Catholics in the pews. The version of any Christian faith that is deeply grounded in theology and history is mostly a construct of the internet these days. That's not to say its bad, I get a lot of fulfillment out of that, but I also know that no church I attend will be a reading group for the luminaries of its intellectual tradition. That's fine.

If I were doing it again, I don't think the sex abuse scandals would move me much; every church has them. I would want to look at whether I thought what the Catholic Church teaches is true and consistent with Christ. I decided that I don't think it is, even though I find that there is a lot of truth there and I think there are things that Protestants can learn from Catholics. That's just what I decided though.

This is really beautiful.

Though I will say I have often found churches with congregants who are deeply grounded in the theology of their specific tradition (one of my former pastors had a map of the "family tree" of all the Presbyterian denominations in the US in his office that he would break out to show the high schoolers during a summer class), but they tend to be very nerdy churches. It seems rare to find churches that are both deeply grounded AND outward/mission focused. The Catholic church seems to be able to have all these streams because it's so big.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being a part of the Roman Church is an affair of the heart, driven by Faith — a living turning over of self to God — and not a mere intellectual journey. There is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative” Catholicism. There is only a greater or lesser surrender to love personified in the person of Christ.

This.

not this. like literally not - where do you even get that? that sounds more like some non-denominational or evangelical church than Catholicism, the heart of which is actually the sacraments (baptism, marriage, communion) and external obligations (mass, confession).

Unless reception of the sacraments and other activities are driven by an attraction to Divine Perfection, particularly in the person of Christ, and leading toward that infinite reality, they would seem to be rather empty, much like the empty externalities Jesus criticized the Pharisees for.

again where tf is that in Catholic canon law or even run of the mill Catholic belief? that sounds like an evangelical church where you just need to be reborn in Christ. being Catholic is largely external - you get the sacraments, you go to mass, you fall in line with Church teachings. if you want a religion all about talking about how much you love Jesus, it’s not really Catholicism …

You might start with the Gospel of St. John.

If you think Catholicism is an external religion, I’m sorry, especially if you profess to be Catholic. The external observances are intended as visible expressions (“signs”) of internal/invisible realities.

that is so far from actual Catholic doctrine, I’m agog.

let me guess - you are a trad Catholic convert who loves the smell of incense and sound of Latin?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being a part of the Roman Church is an affair of the heart, driven by Faith — a living turning over of self to God — and not a mere intellectual journey. There is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative” Catholicism. There is only a greater or lesser surrender to love personified in the person of Christ.

Keep in mind that you can "surrender to love personified in the person of Christ" or whomever you wish to surrender to (assuming you do) without joining the Catholic Church, or any church, for that matter.

And also keep in mind that pp is simply incorrect. What is said above can apply to the followers to any religion or cult, not just Catholicism. Catholics, in my experience, have always wanted to feel special, setting themselves apart from other forms of Christianity as the first or the best.

Protestant here - how do you reconcile this argument (that you can surrender to God without joining a church) with the verses in the Bible about Christians needing to be in community with each other? I really don't think you can, though my DH who is also a Protestant does.

I've had the same experience with Roman Catholics expecting all branches of the faith to return to them, but historically aren't they correct? Even the Orthodox originally split off from the Catholics. They really are first, even if I have theological reasons for not being Catholic.

NP.

1st you have to understand there is the faith of the Catholic Church and the Religion of the Catholic Church.

the faith of the Catholic Church was created by Jesus and the Religion by men.

You do not need to join any religion to be in community with people that live and breath the word of Jesus. If you are at a soup kitchen feeding the poor you are in community with people living in Jesus's word.

Jesus did not do Sunday Mass, every day is a day to live as a good person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being a part of the Roman Church is an affair of the heart, driven by Faith — a living turning over of self to God — and not a mere intellectual journey. There is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative” Catholicism. There is only a greater or lesser surrender to love personified in the person of Christ.

This.

not this. like literally not - where do you even get that? that sounds more like some non-denominational or evangelical church than Catholicism, the heart of which is actually the sacraments (baptism, marriage, communion) and external obligations (mass, confession).

Unless reception of the sacraments and other activities are driven by an attraction to Divine Perfection, particularly in the person of Christ, and leading toward that infinite reality, they would seem to be rather empty, much like the empty externalities Jesus criticized the Pharisees for.

again where tf is that in Catholic canon law or even run of the mill Catholic belief? that sounds like an evangelical church where you just need to be reborn in Christ. being Catholic is largely external - you get the sacraments, you go to mass, you fall in line with Church teachings. if you want a religion all about talking about how much you love Jesus, it’s not really Catholicism …

You might start with the Gospel of St. John.

If you think Catholicism is an external religion, I’m sorry, especially if you profess to be Catholic. The external observances are intended as visible expressions (“signs”) of internal/invisible realities.

that is so far from actual Catholic doctrine, I’m agog.

let me guess - you are a trad Catholic convert who loves the smell of incense and sound of Latin?

Sound like Opus Dei to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up Catholic but now I"m agnostic. My brother is still Catholic and raised his kids Catholic, so wound up teaching his gay son that being gay is a sin.

No thanks.

The assertion that “being gay is a sin” is not part of Catholic teaching. Orientation is morally neutral.

They teach that it is a disorder.

Catechism 2357 they call the acts depraved and intrinsically disordered, in 2358 they state the inclination is objectively disordered

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only one who struggles with the pull to the Roman Catholic church, but then recoils in horror at something and says no way ever? (It's not just the abuse crisis and the birth control stuff--although those are pretty much deal-breakers on their own) Intellectually, I love RC books etc.--such a great intellectual tradition and I love the quality control where books get an imprimatur etc.--but then I go to a parish and people (nice people, more virtuous than I am)--they won't engage that tradition...like I'll bring up books by their greatest theologians like Karl Rahner or books by leading Catholic academics--and it's like I'm quoting some forbidden banned book or something. I've heard that the Arlington diocese is the most conservative in the country...but this is where I live. Is being a liberal Catholic even possible today--especially in northern Virginia? I don't even like that word liberal applied to faith--but everything just feels so rigid on the ground.

Wait until you hear about the Magdalene Laundries.

The religious institutes, the Sisters of Mercy, Sisters of Our Lady of Charity of the Good Shepherd, and Religious Sisters of Charity, have refused demands from the Irish government, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child and the UN Committee Against Torture to contribute to the compensation fund for surviving victims, an estimated 600 of whom were still alive in March 2014.

RUN.

[Anonymous]

Saint John “far from actual Catholic doctrine?”

External signs pointing to invisible realities? The Catechism is replete with references.

If you went to Catholic school, you might ask for your money back.