Kids and “work before play”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think our parents did have to enforce their rules way more than we remember — I bet if you asked them they would tell you what a slog it was to ask you 15 times to turn off the tv and come set the table. That being said, I do get your point; there’s just so many more screen options these days.

I think part of the problem you’re facing is that by including “play outside” as part of the work they have to do before playing, they naturally think of it as work. What happens if you block time they can play different ways (but they have to do chores before any of it starts)? So they have whatever their Saturday morning chores are and once they’ve finished them they’re allowed to play outside. Then in the afternoon they have different afternoon chores and one those are done they’re allowed play with crafts. Then in the evening once evening chores are done they’re allowed to play on screens. Or set locations for morning/afternoon/evening play: eg, morning play can be in the yard or in your bedrooms, afternoon play can be in the yard or in the playroom, evening play can be in your bedroom or the family room (assuming the family room is where screens are stored).

I like this. I guess I was adding those more fun, yet still fruitful, things in to NOT make it all chores. More like, let’s do real life first. Some typical chores, some practice for extracurricular that you genuinely love but don’t alllways want to do, some fun, some helping me out side-by-side. A variety.

But overall I like your comment about blocking it out!

That makes sense! I think practice for extracurriculars counts as “work/chores” because it’s something that needs to get done for an immediate goal, whereas play is more optional and whatever you find fun. I say this because I would never have voluntarily practiced anything growing up am retroactively glad my parents made me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't have any answers, but our family therapist has been insistent with my ASD child that the phrase is: "Work before play, and play before screens".

Play can be a sport, reading for pleasure, playing with the dog/pets, a game, whatever. But screens are not considered "Play" in our house because they're so addictive.

This is what I tried. And the screens portion was still getting a huge chunk. Because one kid especially will go really fast, doesn’t get sent homework in 3rd grade. Totally has a good attitude about doing the 4 things, but rushes and then moves quickly onto screens….

Anyway, TO EVERYONE, I’ve read all the comments. They are all extremely appreciated. I’m taking them all in.

I just want someone to tell me a list of easy rules to tell the kids. Help me manage a variety of days and times and arrivals home. (It’s not even the same schedule everyday.) I cant set one routine for how late the MSer gets home and a different one for the younger. It’s so much to keep track of while we’re cooking dinner. They’ll take advantage of the crazy and I can’t follow them around.

This was helping me just loosely be like “did you get your 4 things done?” Quick review…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe in "work before play" but I think I have a totally different outlook/approach to you.

First off, we don't view screen time as "play time" and it's not something my kids are entitled to daily. They can watch screens, but they don't have iPads and screen time usually means sitting down to watch a TV show or movie. And those have a finite length. Sure, I might say "okay you can watch 4 episodes of Bluey" because those episodes are short. But the only time we let our kids camp out and just let the shows autoplay is if they are sick and need to be resting anyway. Otherwise it's "yes you can watch this one show." And that makes it easy to say they need to clean up their rooms or put away toys or finish homework before watching, because it's a discrete thing.

Yes they whine and complain sometimes when I say they need to finish homework or chores before playing (or watching TV, which again, I don't view as a play activity). Oh well. Kids whine sometimes. If they straight up refuse, then they don't get the play or screen reward, it's an easy built in consequence.

Sometimes they will resist doing the "work" because they are tired, and I can see that they are genuinely very tired. This most often happens in the afternoon or evening after a busy day of school or other activities. In those cases, I will sometimes acknowledge that they are reasonably worn out, and let them watch TV as a way to rest or relax. It still has a time limit on it (we never watch TV without a set time limit). And we might allow them to postpone certain chores until the next day if it's clear they need to rest and the chores aren't urgent. Or sometimes we'll help them complete the chore if they need some help. It's important to remember that kids often work really hard at school and they need breaks just like adults. If some nights we do takeout or put off the laundry because we're totally wiped out from work, we have to allow the kids to do that too. The work is the stuff we did all day, and sometimes you just need to come home and veg out a little to recover.

Bluey? Come back to us when you have a middle school kid. Even if you wait until 8th, the time will come when you have to actually deal with these issues.

OP has a kindergartener and a 3rd grader, as well as a middle schooler. This is also an issue with elementary kids and OP is obviously asking for those kids as well. I'd also argue that setting these expectations with younger kids can make it easier when they are older because the habits and boundaries are firmly in place as you begin to deal with issues like texting with friends and social media.

I'm the PP and I have a kid in 1st (who still watches Bluey) and a kid in 4th. The 4th grader mostly watches movies, not TV shows. Neither of my kids just watch YouTube on autoplay all day. If that's an issue you are dealing with in middle school, my suggestion is that you were too lax about screen time when they were younger.

Come back to us when you learn how to set limits and parent properly.

No, not lax. I had it all figured out when my oldest was in 4th grade.

Then the kids got older. And what worked when they were younger wasn't what was needed when they were older.

Look, if you want to offer advice to OP based on your experience parenting older kids, have at it. I have two kids who are close in age to two of OP's kids, and have found a solution to this problem that works well for my family, and shared it. I'm not going to apologize for that. Obviously older kids might need something different. If you know what that is, feel free to share it -- I won't weigh in as it is out of my wheelhouse. Stop attacking me just because you are apparently mad that I am happy with the balance we've struck on screens and homework and chores for my elementary age kids.

Ask yourself why other people's confidence and competence with regards to parenting triggers you this much.

I don't have advice, we're struggling with this here. With homework and school classwork all being on screens, with varying school and after school schedules so no regular evening routine, it's hard. It was a lot easier in grade school with few after school commitments. My kids were used to screentime limits and playing after school, even in the winter with the early sunsets. Now, they are on screens all day at school and on screens at home for homework and to play video games with friends/chat via Discord. They do sports and music and have chores. All playtime though seems to be screens nowadays and we're struggling with that.

[Anonymous]

Op here, I guess it was helping me be less controlling in my view.

But resulting in some good behavior along with:
Rushing
Slogging through
Ugghhhing through enjoyable things. Sad.
Still having lots of screens
Making screens even more “rewarding”. Dopamine upon dopamine.
Still never ever being decisive and accountable for their life (the two older kids).

As I said before (did I?) we sort of stopped. I’m trying to transition to any new idea that helps us. So thank you again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe in "work before play" but I think I have a totally different outlook/approach to you.

First off, we don't view screen time as "play time" and it's not something my kids are entitled to daily. They can watch screens, but they don't have iPads and screen time usually means sitting down to watch a TV show or movie. And those have a finite length. Sure, I might say "okay you can watch 4 episodes of Bluey" because those episodes are short. But the only time we let our kids camp out and just let the shows autoplay is if they are sick and need to be resting anyway. Otherwise it's "yes you can watch this one show." And that makes it easy to say they need to clean up their rooms or put away toys or finish homework before watching, because it's a discrete thing.

Yes they whine and complain sometimes when I say they need to finish homework or chores before playing (or watching TV, which again, I don't view as a play activity). Oh well. Kids whine sometimes. If they straight up refuse, then they don't get the play or screen reward, it's an easy built in consequence.

Sometimes they will resist doing the "work" because they are tired, and I can see that they are genuinely very tired. This most often happens in the afternoon or evening after a busy day of school or other activities. In those cases, I will sometimes acknowledge that they are reasonably worn out, and let them watch TV as a way to rest or relax. It still has a time limit on it (we never watch TV without a set time limit). And we might allow them to postpone certain chores until the next day if it's clear they need to rest and the chores aren't urgent. Or sometimes we'll help them complete the chore if they need some help. It's important to remember that kids often work really hard at school and they need breaks just like adults. If some nights we do takeout or put off the laundry because we're totally wiped out from work, we have to allow the kids to do that too. The work is the stuff we did all day, and sometimes you just need to come home and veg out a little to recover.

Bluey? Come back to us when you have a middle school kid. Even if you wait until 8th, the time will come when you have to actually deal with these issues.

OP has a kindergartener and a 3rd grader, as well as a middle schooler. This is also an issue with elementary kids and OP is obviously asking for those kids as well. I'd also argue that setting these expectations with younger kids can make it easier when they are older because the habits and boundaries are firmly in place as you begin to deal with issues like texting with friends and social media.

I'm the PP and I have a kid in 1st (who still watches Bluey) and a kid in 4th. The 4th grader mostly watches movies, not TV shows. Neither of my kids just watch YouTube on autoplay all day. If that's an issue you are dealing with in middle school, my suggestion is that you were too lax about screen time when they were younger.

Come back to us when you learn how to set limits and parent properly.

No, not lax. I had it all figured out when my oldest was in 4th grade.

Then the kids got older. And what worked when they were younger wasn't what was needed when they were older.

Look, if you want to offer advice to OP based on your experience parenting older kids, have at it. I have two kids who are close in age to two of OP's kids, and have found a solution to this problem that works well for my family, and shared it. I'm not going to apologize for that. Obviously older kids might need something different. If you know what that is, feel free to share it -- I won't weigh in as it is out of my wheelhouse. Stop attacking me just because you are apparently mad that I am happy with the balance we've struck on screens and homework and chores for my elementary age kids.

Ask yourself why other people's confidence and competence with regards to parenting triggers you this much.

I don't have advice, we're struggling with this here. With homework and school classwork all being on screens, with varying school and after school schedules so no regular evening routine, it's hard. It was a lot easier in grade school with few after school commitments. My kids were used to screentime limits and playing after school, even in the winter with the early sunsets. Now, they are on screens all day at school and on screens at home for homework and to play video games with friends/chat via Discord. They do sports and music and have chores. All playtime though seems to be screens nowadays and we're struggling with that.

I can empathize with all of that and it sounds hard.

It does not justify being a snarky jerk to other people and pulling the "oh your kids are younger than mine so you have no idea how parenting works" card.

[Anonymous]

Good question. I don’t think it’s fair to force my kid to do homework/chores without some time to unwind. Sometimes if he knows exactly what the homework assignment is, he will on his own do it to “get it out of the way” which is great. So I try not to interfere. Other times we just do it before dinner. I talk a lot about how I want to “knock out my chores” and he picks up on that vibe. I am starting to be a little more structured about it on the weekends - like doing laundry first thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have any answers, but our family therapist has been insistent with my ASD child that the phrase is: "Work before play, and play before screens".

Play can be a sport, reading for pleasure, playing with the dog/pets, a game, whatever. But screens are not considered "Play" in our house because they're so addictive.

This is what I tried. And the screens portion was still getting a huge chunk. Because one kid especially will go really fast, doesn’t get sent homework in 3rd grade. Totally has a good attitude about doing the 4 things, but rushes and then moves quickly onto screens….

Anyway, TO EVERYONE, I’ve read all the comments. They are all extremely appreciated. I’m taking them all in.

I just want someone to tell me a list of easy rules to tell the kids. Help me manage a variety of days and times and arrivals home. (It’s not even the same schedule everyday.) I cant set one routine for how late the MSer gets home and a different one for the younger. It’s so much to keep track of while we’re cooking dinner. They’ll take advantage of the crazy and I can’t follow them around.

This was helping me just loosely be like “did you get your 4 things done?” Quick review…

Simple rule wise: no screens before X o’clock? Probably will result in your big kid getting a big more screen time than the younger kids but that’s probably not terrible? If you want to really enforce it just unplug your router except for like 7-9pm. Actually now that I suggest that, I think I’m going to do that. It will be good for my own screen time health!

[Anonymous]

I have two book recommendations for you, OP: "the self-driven child" and "how to raise an adult". Very very good tips in both about how to raise children who have agency, take responsibility for their own lives and make good decisions.


You seem to be very open to new strategies! I think you would love these books. They helped our family a ton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have any answers, but our family therapist has been insistent with my ASD child that the phrase is: "Work before play, and play before screens".

Play can be a sport, reading for pleasure, playing with the dog/pets, a game, whatever. But screens are not considered "Play" in our house because they're so addictive.

This is what I tried. And the screens portion was still getting a huge chunk. Because one kid especially will go really fast, doesn’t get sent homework in 3rd grade. Totally has a good attitude about doing the 4 things, but rushes and then moves quickly onto screens….

Anyway, TO EVERYONE, I’ve read all the comments. They are all extremely appreciated. I’m taking them all in.

I just want someone to tell me a list of easy rules to tell the kids. Help me manage a variety of days and times and arrivals home. (It’s not even the same schedule everyday.) I cant set one routine for how late the MSer gets home and a different one for the younger. It’s so much to keep track of while we’re cooking dinner. They’ll take advantage of the crazy and I can’t follow them around.

This was helping me just loosely be like “did you get your 4 things done?” Quick review…

It is natural that the older kid will have different rules/expectations/routine. You can't treat them the same as a 1st and 3rd grader.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But school is work. And a long day. I think kids need that veg time after school.

This is where we struggle. After school/activities, they are mentally tired and just want to decompress when they get home. Which is great and perfectly reasonable, but sometimes that means they run out of time in the evening (or it gets too close to bedtime and their brains turn off) and the "work" never happens. It's not even TV time for us, they're perfectly happy vegging on the couch and reading, coloring, listening to a podcast*, etc. Which, again, is great, but homework and chores need to get done as well.

*Anyone else struggle with podcasts? Mine aren't big TV watchers, but want to listen to podcasts non-stop. In the car, at breakfast, etc. It's not screen time, but it feels similar in that they're turning off their brains and passively listening instead of engaging with the world. Anyone have to put limits on podcasts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But school is work. And a long day. I think kids need that veg time after school.

This is where we struggle. After school/activities, they are mentally tired and just want to decompress when they get home. Which is great and perfectly reasonable, but sometimes that means they run out of time in the evening (or it gets too close to bedtime and their brains turn off) and the "work" never happens. It's not even TV time for us, they're perfectly happy vegging on the couch and reading, coloring, listening to a podcast*, etc. Which, again, is great, but homework and chores need to get done as well.

*Anyone else struggle with podcasts? Mine aren't big TV watchers, but want to listen to podcasts non-stop. In the car, at breakfast, etc. It's not screen time, but it feels similar in that they're turning off their brains and passively listening instead of engaging with the world. Anyone have to put limits on podcasts?

I have a podcast obsessed kid and have had this same question. I definitely think it's better than TV but yes, it also seems to have an addictive quality and when she was asking to listen to podcasts for literally hours on end, it gave us pause.

It got very bad last summer but has improved a lot during the school year because she's just busier and there is less time for podcasts. We have also had some luck trying to use them primarily during transition times -- in the car on the way to swim, at bedtime after required reading (one episode and then lights out). This creates natural stop times for it. If she then sometimes has a day where she listens to three hours of podcasts while doing arts and crafts or relaxing, it's okay. It's not daily or weekly anymore.

Regarding getting homework and chores done, we try to limit the weekday chores because school can be so tiring. The main chores are helping clean up after dinner, tidying rooms before beds, and helping make lunch in the morning. All of these are things that take 5-10 minutes and two of them are done with parents so as long as they actually help and don't just stand around, it counts.

We save more substantial chores for the weekend where we can have them do 30 minutes of something like laundry or cleaning/organizing with the promos of a bigger reward after (usually an outing of some kind). It's so much easier to motivate a kid to do more substantial chores on a Saturday morning when they are well rested than at 6pm on a Tuesday when they are wiped out from school and also will feel panicky about losing too much of their downtime before bed.

[Anonymous]

Thinking about my parents and approaching older kids, I think you are right op to create a looser structure. There’s no routine setting anymore. Because an older kid will use that against you if they can. “Oh I missed Saturday morning chores? (Slept in, soccer game, school fundraising event they’re volunteering at).

My parents had a weekly chore for each of us. That just about it. We had to finish it Saturday morning. IF we had a busy, early morning game, we had to do it Friday night. IF we also wanted to go out Friday night, it needed to be done before going out.

If we somehow got away with missing all of those opportunities. Saturday afternoon or Sunday.

But I think screens are a big change to how this works. We watched SO much screen time back then, but it felt like there were natural ends. You’d feel a little embarrassed if you watched 3 movies in a row. Maybe one lazy day over the holidays. And it felt gross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But school is work. And a long day. I think kids need that veg time after school.

We give DD 30 minutes (TV, iPad, whatever) from whenever she gets home from school until she has to start any work. Been doing that since ES and it works well for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But school is work. And a long day. I think kids need that veg time after school.

We give DD 30 minutes (TV, iPad, whatever) from whenever she gets home from school until she has to start any work. Been doing that since ES and it works well for us.

And then what? This feels non specific.

30 minutes.
Work (we know what that entails)
All the way until bed??

[Anonymous]

Op here. Checking in. One thing we may transition to doing is having them build this skill on their own.

So. Maybe we keep the 1-4 chores before screens. Maybe we cap the screens as well. (Hard when they get a staggered start.)

But instead of me listing out their stuff

We do:
1 zone they’re in charge of for the week - check that zone. Hopefully this also helps them keep it clean.

Build up to 1 physical goal, 1 school goal and they can set this to work on daily or weekly.

As long as they are doing those things, and we cap the screens (keep it fairly independent of the tasks), they have a lot more trust, freedom, privilege, and respect for themselves.

They can change the zone weekly. They can change the school and other goals. But we’ll help them. The biggest can change to this quickly. The youngest, we might do this alongside him.