change my mind: can't pay a living wage to all

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Change my mind, maybe I am wrong:
Everyone in every job cannot make a wage that allows them to not:
-seek education and/or training to advance into something that pays more
-live with roommates or family
-be in a position where they cannot raise kids on their one salary or with someone with an equivalent salary

https://wtop.com/local/2023/09/health-care-workers-in-dc-area-authorize-strike-against-kaiser-permanente-joining-thousands-across-the-nation/

https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/16l5zjp/why_we_are_striking_at_ford_motor_company/

the COVID-era low skilled worker wage raises seems to have created a sort wage-price spiral--$15 was the request, then $17, but it will never be enough if all low-wage workers make the same thing.

I'm convinced that all the sharp minimum wage hikes we did a few years ago has contributed to ongoing inflation (note- not the sole reason!). They all kicked in around +/- COVID so it was easy to blame that instead.

Damn and here I am blaming corporate greed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Change my mind, maybe I am wrong:
Everyone in every job cannot make a wage that allows them to not:
-seek education and/or training to advance into something that pays more
-live with roommates or family
-be in a position where they cannot raise kids on their one salary or with someone with an equivalent salary

https://wtop.com/local/2023/09/health-care-workers-in-dc-area-authorize-strike-against-kaiser-permanente-joining-thousands-across-the-nation/

https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/16l5zjp/why_we_are_striking_at_ford_motor_company/

the COVID-era low skilled worker wage raises seems to have created a sort wage-price spiral--$15 was the request, then $17, but it will never be enough if all low-wage workers make the same thing.

What about careers that do require education and training (i.e., teachers, social workers, professors, scientists, nurses, EMTs, etc)? Should they be able to receive a living wage? Not everyone can or wants to work in tech or big law. And you know, we need these professionals in order for society to function.

Only if it can be private funded, I am not willing to pay more taxes just so the so called DR.Jill can go on a 3 month vacation doing the summer.

How would we privately fund wages for public school teachers, EMTs, professors at public institutions? Man, the trolls have gotten so weak on this site. Like at least make a semi-coherent argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If true, we need universal basic income and very robust social services so that people in jobs that do not pay a living wage have access to housing, healthcare, and other basic necessities of life. Otherwise we deal with all the externalities of having a large, desperate underclass -- crime, homelessness, substance abuse, civil unrest, etc.

Pick your poison.

"Access to housing" does not mean no roommates and a bedroom for every child.

Who said it did? My kids attend a school that is pretty diverse socioeconomically, and plenty of their classmates live in apartments AND share a room with a sibling, and it's still a challenge for the family to afford a non-decrepit apartment. And there are many neighborhoods in this area where multiple families are sharing a house- my guess is you don't live somewhere like that so maybe you didn't know?

+1, I'm the one who said we need UBI and services to prevent homelessness, crime, etc. I shared a room with a sibling my entire childhood. I chose to have one child in part because it allows us to live in smaller homes without sacrificing privacy, so we can spend less money on housing.

But I think what the OP and others don't get is that when I say we need UBI and social services to help the people who can't make a living wage, I'm not saying that out of some bleeding heart desire to make everything okay for everyone. I'm saying that I want to live in a functional society without unacceptable levels of crime, homelessness, disease, etc., and that if we can't do that by getting everyone into a productive job that pays them enough to buy their own housing, healthcare, etc., then society has to step in and do it. It's fine with me if that housing is pretty bare bones, if the healthcare is relatively basic. I think often advocates for the poor and unhoused often unnecessarily stymie efforts to address these issues by demanding that every single person get access to a middle class lifestyle. But that doesn't mean we can just let people rot because they also the capitalist race. We all pay the price for that. I want a functional society and to feel safe in my community and to not have to walk past homeless encampments in my middle class neighborhood. That means I'm fine with my tax dollars going to prevent those things by helping those people, even if it means my taxes go up. I DO make a living wage so I'm happy to pay money to ensure that I also get to live in a safe, enjoyable society, not some weird dystopia where I have to board up my windows to prevent the have-nots from breaking in to steal my bread or squat in my basement or whatever. Just give them housing and food and and basic services and dignity. It's way better than the alternative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The CEO of General Motors makes more PER HOUR than I make in a year, and I'm a college professor! It's sad that there are people who will never believe that their compensation is enough and who will always desire more.
I'm sure that the CEO thinks her compensation is just and fair and probably doesn't lose any sleep at night worrying about her employees who put off services like having a mammogram because the copay on their insurance is too high, and risk leaving their kids motherless as a result.
I have had some excruciating dental issues recently and it's made me think about all the poeple in the US, including children, who can't afford dental care and who don't have dental insurance. It seems really inhumane that in such a wealthy country we have people in pain from medical and dental conditions, and we have essentially two tiers when it comes to medical care. In a very real sense, we have created a system where the wealthy live to be 90 something, and the poor die when they are sixty. It's hard to believe that we cannot do better.
No one should be homeless in the US. We can afford to do better.

1) I think some DCUMers really convince themselves that compensation always is directly related to smarts and work ethic.
2) I wonder if the people who feel strongly that people are not entitled to a living wage or basics like housing and healthcare will feel differently when AI upends their fields.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If true, we need universal basic income and very robust social services so that people in jobs that do not pay a living wage have access to housing, healthcare, and other basic necessities of life. Otherwise we deal with all the externalities of having a large, desperate underclass -- crime, homelessness, substance abuse, civil unrest, etc.

Pick your poison.

"Access to housing" does not mean no roommates and a bedroom for every child.

Who said it did? My kids attend a school that is pretty diverse socioeconomically, and plenty of their classmates live in apartments AND share a room with a sibling, and it's still a challenge for the family to afford a non-decrepit apartment. And there are many neighborhoods in this area where multiple families are sharing a house- my guess is you don't live somewhere like that so maybe you didn't know?

+1, I'm the one who said we need UBI and services to prevent homelessness, crime, etc. I shared a room with a sibling my entire childhood. I chose to have one child in part because it allows us to live in smaller homes without sacrificing privacy, so we can spend less money on housing.

But I think what the OP and others don't get is that when I say we need UBI and social services to help the people who can't make a living wage, I'm not saying that out of some bleeding heart desire to make everything okay for everyone. I'm saying that I want to live in a functional society without unacceptable levels of crime, homelessness, disease, etc., and that if we can't do that by getting everyone into a productive job that pays them enough to buy their own housing, healthcare, etc., then society has to step in and do it. It's fine with me if that housing is pretty bare bones, if the healthcare is relatively basic. I think often advocates for the poor and unhoused often unnecessarily stymie efforts to address these issues by demanding that every single person get access to a middle class lifestyle. But that doesn't mean we can just let people rot because they also the capitalist race. We all pay the price for that. I want a functional society and to feel safe in my community and to not have to walk past homeless encampments in my middle class neighborhood. That means I'm fine with my tax dollars going to prevent those things by helping those people, even if it means my taxes go up. I DO make a living wage so I'm happy to pay money to ensure that I also get to live in a safe, enjoyable society, not some weird dystopia where I have to board up my windows to prevent the have-nots from breaking in to steal my bread or squat in my basement or whatever. Just give them housing and food and and basic services and dignity. It's way better than the alternative.

The problem with the US tax system is that taxes aren't earmarked. You already pay as much as or more than the average French employee and you get none of the social safety net they do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think high school should do a better job of teaching finances to all, simple rules of demand and supply, manage your career while still being somewhat passionate about your job. I would recommend anyone working minimum wage jobs to look carefully and learn skills to more high paying jobs. It doesn't have to be college educated, but nanny, baby sitter, truck driver, trade school jobs (plumber, electrician etc ) pay a LOT more and there is definite shortage for those skills and certainly add much more value to the society than serving McDonalds.. but hell easier said than done, and I recognize that people may have different circumstances. I just wish all high schoolers were taught that money is important and minimum wage jobs won't cut it.. sure they are stop gap job, but not a career for most

You think poor people don't know those things? Many of them are trapped in vicious cycles. What we learned during Covid is that with some time off and enhanced UI benefits people did upskill and got themselves out of their vicious cycles. And employers in low paying fields started shouting "no one wants to work". Nope, they just traded up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.brookings.edu/articles/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/

3 rules to avoid poverty:

1. Finish High School
2. Have a full-time job
3. Don't marry or have kids before age 21.

Just doing these three things gives you a 98% change of not living in poverty. Come on people.

Oh, wow, people who get more money have more money?
Please explain this amazing economic theory in greater detail.

I didn't make it up dumba$$. Read the link I posted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think high school should do a better job of teaching finances to all, simple rules of demand and supply, manage your career while still being somewhat passionate about your job. I would recommend anyone working minimum wage jobs to look carefully and learn skills to more high paying jobs. It doesn't have to be college educated, but nanny, baby sitter, truck driver, trade school jobs (plumber, electrician etc ) pay a LOT more and there is definite shortage for those skills and certainly add much more value to the society than serving McDonalds.. but hell easier said than done, and I recognize that people may have different circumstances. I just wish all high schoolers were taught that money is important and minimum wage jobs won't cut it.. sure they are stop gap job, but not a career for most

You think poor people don't know those things? Many of them are trapped in vicious cycles. What we learned during Covid is that with some time off and enhanced UI benefits people did upskill and got themselves out of their vicious cycles. And employers in low paying fields started shouting "no one wants to work". Nope, they just traded up.

Teen pregnancy is not a "vicious cycle." Just...don't get pregnant. If you don't have access to reliable birth control, abstain. Its that simple. It really truly is.

[Anonymous]

Wages can increase without costs increasing if income inequality/price gouging is reduced.

Grocery prices went up 150% for some items.

2020 1lb turkey at walmart 3.14 to 6.72
11.98 to 16.48 3lb bacon
waffles 2.93 to 4.19

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wages can increase without costs increasing if income inequality/price gouging is reduced.

Grocery prices went up 150% for some items.

2020 1lb turkey at walmart 3.14 to 6.72
11.98 to 16.48 3lb bacon
waffles 2.93 to 4.19

Except in a free market, the market determines the price of the goods, not some third party regulator. Grocers are able to charge these prices because people will pay them. If people didn't pay it, the prices would come down. Wages going up only exacerbates this. Same with stimulus and other "free" money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think high school should do a better job of teaching finances to all, simple rules of demand and supply, manage your career while still being somewhat passionate about your job. I would recommend anyone working minimum wage jobs to look carefully and learn skills to more high paying jobs. It doesn't have to be college educated, but nanny, baby sitter, truck driver, trade school jobs (plumber, electrician etc ) pay a LOT more and there is definite shortage for those skills and certainly add much more value to the society than serving McDonalds.. but hell easier said than done, and I recognize that people may have different circumstances. I just wish all high schoolers were taught that money is important and minimum wage jobs won't cut it.. sure they are stop gap job, but not a career for most

You think poor people don't know those things? Many of them are trapped in vicious cycles. What we learned during Covid is that with some time off and enhanced UI benefits people did upskill and got themselves out of their vicious cycles. And employers in low paying fields started shouting "no one wants to work". Nope, they just traded up.

Teen pregnancy is not a "vicious cycle." Just...don't get pregnant. If you don't have access to reliable birth control, abstain. Its that simple. It really truly is.

Who mentioned pregnancy besides you? ....
Also, who are stop gap jobs for? No one who wants to procreate correct? And yet when you do procreate it is incredibly difficult due to costs, sick leave, hours, etc. Someone who thinks this is also so simple as BC or abstain when it comes to poverty cant possibly be relied on to have these discussions in good faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wages can increase without costs increasing if income inequality/price gouging is reduced.

Grocery prices went up 150% for some items.

2020 1lb turkey at walmart 3.14 to 6.72
11.98 to 16.48 3lb bacon
waffles 2.93 to 4.19

Except in a free market, the market determines the price of the goods, not some third party regulator. Grocers are able to charge these prices because people will pay them. If people didn't pay it, the prices would come down. Wages going up only exacerbates this. Same with stimulus and other "free" money.

IT IS NOT A FREE MARKET. See stimulus. See corporate sponsorship and loans.

People have to buy food. Formula. Etc. I am showing that one of the cheapest places to get groceries on staples, non-organics (so just basic food) increaed that much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wages can increase without costs increasing if income inequality/price gouging is reduced.

Grocery prices went up 150% for some items.

2020 1lb turkey at walmart 3.14 to 6.72
11.98 to 16.48 3lb bacon
waffles 2.93 to 4.19

Except in a free market, the market determines the price of the goods, not some third party regulator. Grocers are able to charge these prices because people will pay them. If people didn't pay it, the prices would come down. Wages going up only exacerbates this. Same with stimulus and other "free" money.

IT IS NOT A FREE MARKET. See stimulus. See corporate sponsorship and loans.

People have to buy food. Formula. Etc. I am showing that one of the cheapest places to get groceries on staples, non-organics (so just basic food) increaed that much.

And yet people are still buying...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think high school should do a better job of teaching finances to all, simple rules of demand and supply, manage your career while still being somewhat passionate about your job. I would recommend anyone working minimum wage jobs to look carefully and learn skills to more high paying jobs. It doesn't have to be college educated, but nanny, baby sitter, truck driver, trade school jobs (plumber, electrician etc ) pay a LOT more and there is definite shortage for those skills and certainly add much more value to the society than serving McDonalds.. but hell easier said than done, and I recognize that people may have different circumstances. I just wish all high schoolers were taught that money is important and minimum wage jobs won't cut it.. sure they are stop gap job, but not a career for most

You think poor people don't know those things? Many of them are trapped in vicious cycles. What we learned during Covid is that with some time off and enhanced UI benefits people did upskill and got themselves out of their vicious cycles. And employers in low paying fields started shouting "no one wants to work". Nope, they just traded up.

Teen pregnancy is not a "vicious cycle." Just...don't get pregnant. If you don't have access to reliable birth control, abstain. Its that simple. It really truly is.

Who mentioned pregnancy besides you? ....
Also, who are stop gap jobs for? No one who wants to procreate correct? And yet when you do procreate it is incredibly difficult due to costs, sick leave, hours, etc. Someone who thinks this is also so simple as BC or abstain when it comes to poverty cant possibly be relied on to have these discussions in good faith.

Its one of the tenets of not being poor. And the stop gap jobs are for the under-25, non-parent group. If you graduate HS, postpone marriage and parenthood, and find a stable partner, you will be able to afford those things later on. Its very well documented and researched. It isn't rocket science.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The CEO of General Motors makes more PER HOUR than I make in a year, and I'm a college professor! It's sad that there are people who will never believe that their compensation is enough and who will always desire more.
I'm sure that the CEO thinks her compensation is just and fair and probably doesn't lose any sleep at night worrying about her employees who put off services like having a mammogram because the copay on their insurance is too high, and risk leaving their kids motherless as a result.
I have had some excruciating dental issues recently and it's made me think about all the poeple in the US, including children, who can't afford dental care and who don't have dental insurance. It seems really inhumane that in such a wealthy country we have people in pain from medical and dental conditions, and we have essentially two tiers when it comes to medical care. In a very real sense, we have created a system where the wealthy live to be 90 something, and the poor die when they are sixty. It's hard to believe that we cannot do better.
No one should be homeless in the US. We can afford to do better.

1) I think some DCUMers really convince themselves that compensation always is directly related to smarts and work ethic.
2) I wonder if the people who feel strongly that people are not entitled to a living wage or basics like housing and healthcare will feel differently when AI upends their fields.

+1
There are compensation cabals and CEOs are the most obvious. They can have documented horrendous performance, get a golden parachute and be hired elsewhere and do the same. The reason is because ALL the CEOs benefit if they keep everyone in the club, don't make it fully dependent on strong performance, and keep pay and benefits high. Board members are in the same club so there isn't pushback to the general process there. This happens at many of the business upper echelon jobs. It's very distorting and not fitting with a free market.

This is very different from the compensation differentials that happen because a skill is relatively rare but is currently in demand or there is some kind of downside to the job (e.g., petroleum engineers get paid more because fewer people with engineering skills want that that work environment so they have to pay more). Those are more natural compensation differentials. Then also there is just inertia, industry variation etc. that is essentially error in the system.