Just Curious... how many kids get moved down from a upper level team to a lower level team?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience top team rosters are filled mostly with outside players. Even with better kids on lower teams. There is no pathway for upward mobility. I agree with D1 mom above, find a team that works for your child.

PP, this is exactly what I was referring to....outside players, b team kids are better, etc; simply not true. You probably dont want to out yourself, but im guessing your dc got passed up by an outside player and you think he/she should have been on top team. I guarantee if you asked around the parent group, they would have had a different opinion. Did your kid get passed up each year by these outside players? Did your kis guest and train with the top team regularly. Could you make an honest assessment of your kids ability?

I’m not the PP, I’m the PP whose kid is playing college and who wrote about the toxic nature of the club system. But I’m sorry, but this flat-out does not match with my experience.

Here is what I would say: there are kids who get to and flourish in college because of the club system. These are the kids who are identified early, nourished by the system, preferred by coaches, etc. Sometimes their parents are much like the PP and believe in the club system, particularly at the ECNL and MLSNext levels. For some of the parents (not saying this is PP), their egos depend on believing club soccer is a true meritocracy where the best excel. To be fair, their kids have a very good experience with the system and trust it. They should trust it: they benefit, and when it comes to college, the club and coach advocates for them.

But there is also a sizeable group of kids who get to and flourish in college despite the club system. These kids are the one who maybe have to fight for play time over the years, who are tracked into lower teams at the younger years and have to switch clubs to get up a level, who get benched, who aren’t the coach favorites, who get yelled at more, who are the target of the coach ire if they lose. Etc. These kids hustle on their own to get their college spots (because their coaches minimally help, preferring to help their favorites). They have to debate whether and/or when they share college offer information with the club because they can’t trust the club and/or coach.

The thing is, college coaches know this about club soccer. Some college coaches refuse to even talk with club coaches, because they don’t trust them. So that second group, they can and do get on to college teams. Coaches in college know how the US club system works more than anyone.

I’ve had kids in both groups. I will say this: when your kid is in the first group, you want to believe the club system is equitable. When your kid is in the second group, you know it’s not.

I am the PP, and this is a very good post. you may be right, my kid is benefiting from the club, although did not start out on the top team but was identified early on and made a jump to the top team. To your point, she is being advocated by the club yet well deserved by how she performs. I see a lot of what goes on, and I just dont see others being overlooked, at least to the point where they deserve being moved up to ECNL level. At ECNL level we go to showcases, tournaments, ID sessions, etc...do some coaches favor certain kids, of course, but why do they favor them, it's because they are the impact players, leaders of the team, coachable, etc...I just dont see the bias or systematic failure of the club; and again pp makes very good points...I just dont see the other side and I would be honest if I did. Great players will get noticed, D1 players will get noticed, USYNT players will get identified; I just dont think there is a club failure in the 2nd tier players going unnoticed. And; it also is on the parents and player to do the work when it comes to recruiting and finding a college that is the best fit for your dc; if you are relying on the club or coach to do the work for you, then you are not doing it right. You/player needs tp be the one advocating for your kid; i.e; contacting coaches, game tape, etc....but pp made accurate points and maybe I guess it is different from what level your dc is at. great discussion!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience top team rosters are filled mostly with outside players. Even with better kids on lower teams. There is no pathway for upward mobility. I agree with D1 mom above, find a team that works for your child.

PP, this is exactly what I was referring to....outside players, b team kids are better, etc; simply not true. You probably dont want to out yourself, but im guessing your dc got passed up by an outside player and you think he/she should have been on top team. I guarantee if you asked around the parent group, they would have had a different opinion. Did your kid get passed up each year by these outside players? Did your kis guest and train with the top team regularly. Could you make an honest assessment of your kids ability?

I’m not the PP, I’m the PP whose kid is playing college and who wrote about the toxic nature of the club system. But I’m sorry, but this flat-out does not match with my experience.

Here is what I would say: there are kids who get to and flourish in college because of the club system. These are the kids who are identified early, nourished by the system, preferred by coaches, etc. Sometimes their parents are much like the PP and believe in the club system, particularly at the ECNL and MLSNext levels. For some of the parents (not saying this is PP), their egos depend on believing club soccer is a true meritocracy where the best excel. To be fair, their kids have a very good experience with the system and trust it. They should trust it: they benefit, and when it comes to college, the club and coach advocates for them.

But there is also a sizeable group of kids who get to and flourish in college despite the club system. These kids are the one who maybe have to fight for play time over the years, who are tracked into lower teams at the younger years and have to switch clubs to get up a level, who get benched, who aren’t the coach favorites, who get yelled at more, who are the target of the coach ire if they lose. Etc. These kids hustle on their own to get their college spots (because their coaches minimally help, preferring to help their favorites). They have to debate whether and/or when they share college offer information with the club because they can’t trust the club and/or coach.

The thing is, college coaches know this about club soccer. Some college coaches refuse to even talk with club coaches, because they don’t trust them. So that second group, they can and do get on to college teams. Coaches in college know how the US club system works more than anyone.

I’ve had kids in both groups. I will say this: when your kid is in the first group, you want to believe the club system is equitable. When your kid is in the second group, you know it’s not.

I am the PP, and this is a very good post. you may be right, my kid is benefiting from the club, although did not start out on the top team but was identified early on and made a jump to the top team. To your point, she is being advocated by the club yet well deserved by how she performs. I see a lot of what goes on, and I just dont see others being overlooked, at least to the point where they deserve being moved up to ECNL level. At ECNL level we go to showcases, tournaments, ID sessions, etc...do some coaches favor certain kids, of course, but why do they favor them, it's because they are the impact players, leaders of the team, coachable, etc...I just dont see the bias or systematic failure of the club; and again pp makes very good points...I just dont see the other side and I would be honest if I did. Great players will get noticed, D1 players will get noticed, USYNT players will get identified; I just dont think there is a club failure in the 2nd tier players going unnoticed. And; it also is on the parents and player to do the work when it comes to recruiting and finding a college that is the best fit for your dc; if you are relying on the club or coach to do the work for you, then you are not doing it right. You/player needs tp be the one advocating for your kid; i.e; contacting coaches, game tape, etc....but pp made accurate points and maybe I guess it is different from what level your dc is at. great discussion!

Oh my sweet summer child. You have no idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid — now playing college in a good conference — was moved down multiple times in his club career. For context, at one point he was on the fourth level team.

Clubs are generally toxic places and movement/retention is often unrelated to skill.

+1 million
2 boys playing D1 that constantly for d@ked around in club and high school. The politics and favoritism are astounding. Absolutely toxic.

Thankfully, many college coaches don’t play that game.

Yup.

We view my kid as having made it to his college team despite club soccer, not because of it. The toxicity—something we saw across multiple clubs, not just one—is astonishing. I do think that not trusting the clubs was an excellent decision in hindsight.

OP, trust your instincts. If you don’t feel the move was made for the right reasons, it’s time to switch clubs.

Can ppl give examples of the toxicity at clubs? I’m assuming that kids aren’t really promoted or demoted based on their skills? What else?

Oh, man, where to start. But first, I want to make it clear that demotion and promotion is sometimes based on skill. It is not the case that it’s not. But the problem is this: on a top team there are generally a few kids who truly stand out. There are sometimes a few clearly struggling too, though in my experience with top teams that’s sometimes not because of skill but because they are terrified of the coach, who targets them if they make a mistake. The rest are in the middle. So, sometimes the demotion/promotion is based on skill, often it’s not. But, some examples of toxicity I’ve seen:

- Tolerating and not commenting/screaming at mistakes from some kids while screaming at others for the same or very similar mistakes.
- Allowing team parents to sit on the bench with the team during games and interfere/gossip.
- Pitting kids against each other and not stopping kids from screaming at each other in games; coaches encouraging vile behavior on the field between teammates. I’m sorry, but no 13-year-old should be allowed to scream “why weren’t you there, you f***ing idiot” on the field with no coach consequences.
— Teaching a selfish kind of play because you are judged every week on whether you can play and that’s partially a stats thing (mostly an ECNL/MLSNext issue).
— Coaches putting kids they didn’t like in positions they don’t usually play in college showcases so that the kids didn’t look as good as their favored kids. For instance, putting a right winger in at left back for the college showcase.
— Over-rostering teams to collect the higher fees for top-level teams when the club knows those kids will never see the field.
— Discouraging creativity in learning players because the coaches/clubs make them so terrified to make a mistake that they will never take a risk. For instance, yelling at kids who challenged players for not releasing the ball fast enough (we left one club over this; my kid needed to learn to challenge, but the top team was filled with kids who kicked the ball away as soon as an opposing player got within five meters because the coach got angry if they didn’t).

I could go on with so much more but this is already too long. Also, as a point of reference I have multiple kids who have played club in various sports. I think soccer is more toxic than any of the others, and I had a kid who did gymnastics (second most toxic IME). I also am reasonably likely to have another college athlete (still in HS) on a good college team, in a different sport. After all of this, I don’t think the US will ever improve at soccer so long as MLSNext and ECNL rule the pipeline. It’s not a system designed to nurture the best prospects and it doesn’t. I say this as a parent of a kid who had multiple good offers for college teams recently (after the transfer portal change), so in theory someone who externally is probably seen as a success of the club system.

As a fan of EPL - and who isn’t after watching thousands of hours of kid soccer - your line about selfish play sticks. Unfortunately, that is what European clubs look for in American players so agents here look for it. Rinse and repeat.

[Anonymous]

Look at USWNT if you don’t believe spots are about politics most of the time.

[Anonymous]

As kids get older and more specialized in playing a position, moving up or down depends to a degree on what happens with the kid currently in that position on a higher team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look at USWNT if you don’t believe spots are about politics most of the time.

I’m the college mom PP. The current USWNT is just a predictable demonstration of the failure of the ECNL and MLSNext systems. Once the rest of the world started taking women’s soccer seriously, it was only a matter of time before the weaker and toxic ECNL/club system failed when faced with superior international training. It was obvious back when the Euros were going on that the USWNT would be lucky to exit the group stage in the World Cup: the Euros play was so much faster and better than what the USWNT were playing at the time.

I have another kid who plays at a college-recruit level in another sport (still in HS) and the weakness of ECNL/MLSNext/club system is just so glaring in comparison. I think the US women won’t be as dominant again, at least not for a long time. Their pipeline is too weak, and that’s because of the ECNL and club system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at USWNT if you don’t believe spots are about politics most of the time.

I’m the college mom PP. The current USWNT is just a predictable demonstration of the failure of the ECNL and MLSNext systems. Once the rest of the world started taking women’s soccer seriously, it was only a matter of time before the weaker and toxic ECNL/club system failed when faced with superior international training. It was obvious back when the Euros were going on that the USWNT would be lucky to exit the group stage in the World Cup: the Euros play was so much faster and better than what the USWNT were playing at the time.

I have another kid who plays at a college-recruit level in another sport (still in HS) and the weakness of ECNL/MLSNext/club system is just so glaring in comparison. I think the US women won’t be as dominant again, at least not for a long time. Their pipeline is too weak, and that’s because of the ECNL and club system.

What would you change?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at USWNT if you don’t believe spots are about politics most of the time.

I’m the college mom PP. The current USWNT is just a predictable demonstration of the failure of the ECNL and MLSNext systems. Once the rest of the world started taking women’s soccer seriously, it was only a matter of time before the weaker and toxic ECNL/club system failed when faced with superior international training. It was obvious back when the Euros were going on that the USWNT would be lucky to exit the group stage in the World Cup: the Euros play was so much faster and better than what the USWNT were playing at the time.

I have another kid who plays at a college-recruit level in another sport (still in HS) and the weakness of ECNL/MLSNext/club system is just so glaring in comparison. I think the US women won’t be as dominant again, at least not for a long time. Their pipeline is too weak, and that’s because of the ECNL and club system.

What would you change?

I’m not PP. I think US Soccer needs to ID girls very early on at all clubs and also with regular open tryouts. And then I would require girls be pulled out regularly from their clubs for practices and to keep tabs on their training to make sure they are being developed properly (and supplement their training if necessary). I think this would even out the pool and help natural talent develop instead of being lost due to other more athletic girls having the resources to supplement their training. It would also even out the disparity in training.

Obviously, US soccer needs to develop a curriculum of development. Or maybe just borrow some other countries and implement that.

[Anonymous]

This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at USWNT if you don’t believe spots are about politics most of the time.

I’m the college mom PP. The current USWNT is just a predictable demonstration of the failure of the ECNL and MLSNext systems. Once the rest of the world started taking women’s soccer seriously, it was only a matter of time before the weaker and toxic ECNL/club system failed when faced with superior international training. It was obvious back when the Euros were going on that the USWNT would be lucky to exit the group stage in the World Cup: the Euros play was so much faster and better than what the USWNT were playing at the time.

I have another kid who plays at a college-recruit level in another sport (still in HS) and the weakness of ECNL/MLSNext/club system is just so glaring in comparison. I think the US women won’t be as dominant again, at least not for a long time. Their pipeline is too weak, and that’s because of the ECNL and club system.

What would you change?

I’m not PP. I think US Soccer needs to ID girls very early on at all clubs and also with regular open tryouts. And then I would require girls be pulled out regularly from their clubs for practices and to keep tabs on their training to make sure they are being developed properly (and supplement their training if necessary). I think this would even out the pool and help natural talent develop instead of being lost due to other more athletic girls having the resources to supplement their training. It would also even out the disparity in training.

Obviously, US soccer needs to develop a curriculum of development. Or maybe just borrow some other countries and implement that.

Who pays for that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

Unless you’re talking about ODP, which is pay to play, can you give any example of it happing on a regular systematic basis?

[Anonymous]

I will say this- at our club the focus, resources, etc is mostly on the top team and it’s hard to break in. They move players down, but usually fill the top team holes with players from other clubs. In the past year, a player on the 3rd team was identified for USYNT and not moved up to the top team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

Unless you’re talking about ODP, which is pay to play, can you give any example of it happing on a regular systematic basis?

ODP? No high end player plays ODP after age 13. US Soccer runs training centers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I will say this- at our club the focus, resources, etc is mostly on the top team and it’s hard to break in. They move players down, but usually fill the top team holes with players from other clubs. In the past year, a player on the 3rd team was identified for USYNT and not moved up to the top team.

Give us the example; if you dont want to out yourself, at least give us gender and year and club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience top team rosters are filled mostly with outside players. Even with better kids on lower teams. There is no pathway for upward mobility. I agree with D1 mom above, find a team that works for your child.

PP, this is exactly what I was referring to....outside players, b team kids are better, etc; simply not true. You probably dont want to out yourself, but im guessing your dc got passed up by an outside player and you think he/she should have been on top team. I guarantee if you asked around the parent group, they would have had a different opinion. Did your kid get passed up each year by these outside players? Did your kis guest and train with the top team regularly. Could you make an honest assessment of your kids ability?

I’m not the PP, I’m the PP whose kid is playing college and who wrote about the toxic nature of the club system. But I’m sorry, but this flat-out does not match with my experience.

Here is what I would say: there are kids who get to and flourish in college because of the club system. These are the kids who are identified early, nourished by the system, preferred by coaches, etc. Sometimes their parents are much like the PP and believe in the club system, particularly at the ECNL and MLSNext levels. For some of the parents (not saying this is PP), their egos depend on believing club soccer is a true meritocracy where the best excel. To be fair, their kids have a very good experience with the system and trust it. They should trust it: they benefit, and when it comes to college, the club and coach advocates for them.

But there is also a sizeable group of kids who get to and flourish in college despite the club system. These kids are the one who maybe have to fight for play time over the years, who are tracked into lower teams at the younger years and have to switch clubs to get up a level, who get benched, who aren’t the coach favorites, who get yelled at more, who are the target of the coach ire if they lose. Etc. These kids hustle on their own to get their college spots (because their coaches minimally help, preferring to help their favorites). They have to debate whether and/or when they share college offer information with the club because they can’t trust the club and/or coach.

The thing is, college coaches know this about club soccer. Some college coaches refuse to even talk with club coaches, because they don’t trust them. So that second group, they can and do get on to college teams. Coaches in college know how the US club system works more than anyone.

I’ve had kids in both groups. I will say this: when your kid is in the first group, you want to believe the club system is equitable. When your kid is in the second group, you know it’s not.

Thank you PP for sharing your experience. It's very helpful.