Just Curious... how many kids get moved down from a upper level team to a lower level team?

[Anonymous]

^^ omg! 100% yes and I have two sons.

My kid earned everything on his own in spite of all the sh@t and the behavior we saw with cia he’s and parents and club TDs and high school coaches was just awful. We liked to joke that it was often like a sorority rush at these things then talent. I was truly surprised my oldest still kept going and wanted to continue to play “in spite” of all the crap he was exposed to. Don’t hate the game, hate the system!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at USWNT if you don’t believe spots are about politics most of the time.

I’m the college mom PP. The current USWNT is just a predictable demonstration of the failure of the ECNL and MLSNext systems. Once the rest of the world started taking women’s soccer seriously, it was only a matter of time before the weaker and toxic ECNL/club system failed when faced with superior international training. It was obvious back when the Euros were going on that the USWNT would be lucky to exit the group stage in the World Cup: the Euros play was so much faster and better than what the USWNT were playing at the time.

I have another kid who plays at a college-recruit level in another sport (still in HS) and the weakness of ECNL/MLSNext/club system is just so glaring in comparison. I think the US women won’t be as dominant again, at least not for a long time. Their pipeline is too weak, and that’s because of the ECNL and club system.

What would you change?

I’m the PP. Where to start? I could write a full-on essay here haha.

But I guess I will start at the highest level: when I look at sports where I think the development is generally good and much better than soccer, they share one feature: a shared and very clear understanding of what the end goal of player development is. This is true across massively large sports (e.g. football) and smaller sports (e.g. water polo). I’ll work through both as examples, but the point is that the size of the sport isn’t the barrier here.

So, for instance, in football everyone knows the pathway is high school to college to NFL. Yes, there are a few exceptions, but the system as a whole is designed to funnel everyone down that path. And development is geared to get the outstanding kids to the NFL, with significant input from the NFL. Across the US, training looks reasonably similar because everyone knows and agrees what the next step is. There is deep consistency.

In water polo, US Water Polo drives everything, and training is structured by that organization. So, kids spend their season preparing for the big national event of the season (junior Olympics) where they are eventually scouted by college coaches. There is a robust private club system in water polo (like soccer) but (unlike soccer) they all work within the clear direction of the USWP training umbrella. And again, the goal is shared: Junior Olympics, college, Olympics.

I see nothing like that in soccer. There isn’t a real end goal for training that is shared through the system. The NCAA doesn’t even play with the same rules as international play (which is ridiculous and needs to be changed immediately), let alone share training goals. US Soccer is a weak organization that doesn’t have the financial or organizational ability to reign in rapacious groups like ECNL or MLSNext. Of those two, at least MLSNext ostensibly has the goal of producing players for MLS, but they are far off from operating the way the Europeans clubs do and many MLSNext teams are not even affiliated with an MLS team.

Because there really isn’t a development goal, what ends up happening is that elite soccer training at the youth level doesn’t work towards development goals, just making money. That means development is largely focused towards endless series of tournaments because those are big moneymakers. If you are developing kids to win tournament after tournament, you aren’t developing them for longer-term goals. The kids who will start will be the ones who can handle the physical wear and tear of weekend after weekend of tournaments. (That’s the second specific thing I would do: greatly restrict tournament play and bolster league play instead.) Meanwhile, again because of the lack of a shared goal, clubs also just build rosters to fund themselves since there isn’t really anything else for them. (I would prefer US Soccer set a strict roster limit, for instance.)

I could go on for so long. But at heart, I think soccer development fails in the US because there is not even basic agreement on what the goal of development is. That’s where I’d start: getting agreement on what the goal of player development in the US even is. Without that shared vision, the US will only ever be mediocre in soccer.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I meant to add that I think this lack of a shared vision leads to the toxicity I see in soccer. In sports where there is better alignment on development goals, there is somewhat more transparency. It’s not perfect by any means and god knows I’ve seen my share of crazy situations in other sports, but it’s not toxic the same way because in the end, the reasoning behind decisions is more apparent. There is a lack of transparency in US soccer that leads to toxicity precisely because there aren’t aligned goals for development.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say this- at our club the focus, resources, etc is mostly on the top team and it’s hard to break in. They move players down, but usually fill the top team holes with players from other clubs. In the past year, a player on the 3rd team was identified for USYNT and not moved up to the top team.

Give us the example; if you dont want to out yourself, at least give us gender and year and club.

Girls 15u

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

Unless you’re talking about ODP, which is pay to play, can you give any example of it happing on a regular systematic basis?

ODP? No high end player plays ODP after age 13. US Soccer runs training centers.

How does US Soccer choose who goes to the training centers? Do they rely on coaches to refer players?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say this- at our club the focus, resources, etc is mostly on the top team and it’s hard to break in. They move players down, but usually fill the top team holes with players from other clubs. In the past year, a player on the 3rd team was identified for USYNT and not moved up to the top team.

Give us the example; if you dont want to out yourself, at least give us gender and year and club.

Girls 15u

that's not true; she is not on the third team,.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say this- at our club the focus, resources, etc is mostly on the top team and it’s hard to break in. They move players down, but usually fill the top team holes with players from other clubs. In the past year, a player on the 3rd team was identified for USYNT and not moved up to the top team.

Give us the example; if you dont want to out yourself, at least give us gender and year and club.

Girls 15u

that's not true; she is not on the third team,.

Yes, she was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say this- at our club the focus, resources, etc is mostly on the top team and it’s hard to break in. They move players down, but usually fill the top team holes with players from other clubs. In the past year, a player on the 3rd team was identified for USYNT and not moved up to the top team.

Give us the example; if you dont want to out yourself, at least give us gender and year and club.

Girls 15u

that's not true; she is not on the third team,.

Yes, she was.

What club??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

Unless you’re talking about ODP, which is pay to play, can you give any example of it happing on a regular systematic basis?

ODP? No high end player plays ODP after age 13. US Soccer runs training centers.

How does US Soccer choose who goes to the training centers? Do they rely on coaches to refer players?

US Soccer scouts determine who attends the training centers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

Unless you’re talking about ODP, which is pay to play, can you give any example of it happing on a regular systematic basis?

ODP? No high end player plays ODP after age 13. US Soccer runs training centers.

How does US Soccer choose who goes to the training centers? Do they rely on coaches to refer players?

US Soccer scouts determine who attends the training centers.

No. There are very few scouts. It’s word of mouth before one comes out. Kids get nominated by their coaches to attend the large usynt training camps.

[Anonymous]

The national camps don’t do much either.

What has happened to the USWNT is that the rest of the world, with better training and nurturing of players (including rational promotion/demotion criteria, to reflect OP), has surpassed the deeply flawed US club system. The US women are now going to muddle along like the US men at a low level of international play, because they won’t pick and nurture the right kids. I don’t see the USWNT being dominant again for many years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

Unless you’re talking about ODP, which is pay to play, can you give any example of it happing on a regular systematic basis?

ODP? No high end player plays ODP after age 13. US Soccer runs training centers.

How does US Soccer choose who goes to the training centers? Do they rely on coaches to refer players?

US Soccer scouts determine who attends the training centers.

So a very few scouts watch very expensive teams plays and somehow that is equivalent to Man City or Barca running a massive academy that is free for all and starts with rec and promotes based on skill?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

Unless you’re talking about ODP, which is pay to play, can you give any example of it happing on a regular systematic basis?

ODP? No high end player plays ODP after age 13. US Soccer runs training centers.

How does US Soccer choose who goes to the training centers? Do they rely on coaches to refer players?

US Soccer scouts determine who attends the training centers.

So a very few scouts watch very expensive teams plays and somehow that is equivalent to Man City or Barca running a massive academy that is free for all and starts with rec and promotes based on skill?

It sounds like the few scouts watch the same very expensive teams that are coached by the same coaches over and over again to come up with a player pool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is already done. Your ignorance is showing.

Unless you’re talking about ODP, which is pay to play, can you give any example of it happing on a regular systematic basis?

ODP? No high end player plays ODP after age 13. US Soccer runs training centers.

How does US Soccer choose who goes to the training centers? Do they rely on coaches to refer players?

US Soccer scouts determine who attends the training centers.

So a very few scouts watch very expensive teams plays and somehow that is equivalent to Man City or Barca running a massive academy that is free for all and starts with rec and promotes based on skill?

It sounds like the few scouts watch the same very expensive teams that are coached by the same coaches over and over again to come up with a player pool

Yeah, without open tryouts, these scouting ventures aren’t going to pick up much new talent. Just same type of players….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The national camps don’t do much either.

What has happened to the USWNT is that the rest of the world, with better training and nurturing of players (including rational promotion/demotion criteria, to reflect OP), has surpassed the deeply flawed US club system. The US women are now going to muddle along like the US men at a low level of international play, because they won’t pick and nurture the right kids. I don’t see the USWNT being dominant again for many years.

I think that there are a number of US young players who can compete internationally. I think that long term, the US will still be competitive. This is because their style of game always lends them a chance to win. Having said this, I agree that USWNT doesn't do it right. I agree with PP who suggested that the lack of consistency in development of soccer players is lacking in the US. However, I also think some of that is because soccer is not culturally ingrained in US - we didn't grow up with this game here. We watch Superbowls with football and basketball rule our culture. Of course it does not mean we can't get it together with soccer but we started down the wrong path in terms of having multiple organizations develop the kids (ie ECNL/MLSNext/etc.). We can't really go back because once you make money, well, nobody's gonna stop wanting to continue LOL So.. here we are, we aren't going to have that consistency the way other sports have it whether in swimming, water polo, gymnastics, etc. So what's the reality?

I think that US soccer will stay competitive because let's face it, there's a LOT of girls in the US who do play and love the game. A lot of talent to select to grow. Even if we're not growing the right way v other countries who do, we will stay competitive. And I don't think there's that level of love of the game, the commitment and dedication that other countries have, to make soccer more than it is in the US. I say this having 2 kids in travel and play at a high level. In a lot of countries, they only have soccer. We have a ton of other sports that share the spotlight. I say this as someone who really really loves the beautiful game but it is what it is in the US.