ES math- when do kids learn multiplication/division

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

Agree do not do this. Not only will students need to understand these concepts to pass grade level test, understanding the multiple different ways not only helps solve problems different ways but allows kids to THINK about problems differently and ensures concrete understanding of math. These are critical when you get to upper level math.

Everybody thinks their kid is super quick and understands it all until presented with word problems, mixed fractions, and oh Alg II. Then, expensive tutors come out.

Everything has trade-offs. By spending so much time on multiple approaches and conceptual understanding of arithmetic, some kids don't get enough time on math facts and standard procedures. Also, by moving so slowly in early elementary, less time is available in upper elementary and middle school for more challenging concepts. Plenty of kids have difficulties down the road due to these latter issues as well.

I’m not convinced this is true given county and state MCAP scores. Further, there are plenty of kids each year who undertake compacted math, and a large number of kids are taking Alg1 by 8th. The courses don’t need to move quicker they need additional depth and review.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

I saw it with my child too. Arrays were just busy work and a nuisance. And who are the tests for?! The school admin. Any teacher knows if a kid knows their stuff. If they can solve a multiplication problem they don’t need to use arrays
I mean my kid did most of his work of course but it’s dumb and though I couldn’t openly agree with him, I do now.
Yes there are kids who need arrays and manipulatives and what not but i bet it’s not OP’s kid

Nope. As a teacher, I need to know my student's are learning what I am teaching them in class. If the curriculum includes arrays, that student needs to learn arrays. The tests are for teachers in order to drive instruction. Just because your kid can multiply tell me they are paying attention or learning during my lessons if they don't know how to do what is asked of them. Additionally, math instruction is much more concept based now. Students are learning WHY math works, not just mindlessly memorizing it. Sorry, if your kid doesn't turn in a quiz or test that shows they know the material given to them in class, they aren't passing my class.

When kids hit algebra they need to have facts memorized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

I saw it with my child too. Arrays were just busy work and a nuisance. And who are the tests for?! The school admin. Any teacher knows if a kid knows their stuff. If they can solve a multiplication problem they don’t need to use arrays
I mean my kid did most of his work of course but it’s dumb and though I couldn’t openly agree with him, I do now.
Yes there are kids who need arrays and manipulatives and what not but i bet it’s not OP’s kid

Nope. As a teacher, I need to know my student's are learning what I am teaching them in class. If the curriculum includes arrays, that student needs to learn arrays. The tests are for teachers in order to drive instruction. Just because your kid can multiply tell me they are paying attention or learning during my lessons if they don't know how to do what is asked of them. Additionally, math instruction is much more concept based now. Students are learning WHY math works, not just mindlessly memorizing it. Sorry, if your kid doesn't turn in a quiz or test that shows they know the material given to them in class, they aren't passing my class.

When kids hit algebra they need to have facts memorized.

No one is disputing that. Kids need to have the facts memorized AND understand why those memorized facts make sense. Why does this seem to bother you so much?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

I saw it with my child too. Arrays were just busy work and a nuisance. And who are the tests for?! The school admin. Any teacher knows if a kid knows their stuff. If they can solve a multiplication problem they don’t need to use arrays
I mean my kid did most of his work of course but it’s dumb and though I couldn’t openly agree with him, I do now.
Yes there are kids who need arrays and manipulatives and what not but i bet it’s not OP’s kid

Nope. As a teacher, I need to know my student's are learning what I am teaching them in class. If the curriculum includes arrays, that student needs to learn arrays. The tests are for teachers in order to drive instruction. Just because your kid can multiply tell me they are paying attention or learning during my lessons if they don't know how to do what is asked of them. Additionally, math instruction is much more concept based now. Students are learning WHY math works, not just mindlessly memorizing it. Sorry, if your kid doesn't turn in a quiz or test that shows they know the material given to them in class, they aren't passing my class.

When kids hit algebra they need to have facts memorized.

No one is disputing that. Kids need to have the facts memorized AND understand why those memorized facts make sense. Why does this seem to bother you so much?

It was a huge waste of time and made mine misreable and hating math. Once they started algebra they never used it. They need to teach caches and the basics. We had to do all that at home.

[Anonymous]

My kids memorized multiplication tables between 1st and second grades. They did Singapore math in k-3 at home. Eureka is based on Singapore math but Singapore math is a far superior program. At the end of first grade multiplication is introduced. My kids did the first grade program in kindergarten. Make sure your child is solid on addition and subtraction with 20. No counting on fingers or stopping to pause once they have practiced number bonds. They should just know 15-7=8. Or 6+7 =13.

You can use the old Singapore math program or the new one called dimensions.
https://www.singaporemath.com/collections/dimensions-math-pk-5

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

Agree do not do this. Not only will students need to understand these concepts to pass grade level test, understanding the multiple different ways not only helps solve problems different ways but allows kids to THINK about problems differently and ensures concrete understanding of math. These are critical when you get to upper level math.

Everybody thinks their kid is super quick and understands it all until presented with word problems, mixed fractions, and oh Alg II. Then, expensive tutors come out.

Everything has trade-offs. By spending so much time on multiple approaches and conceptual understanding of arithmetic, some kids don't get enough time on math facts and standard procedures. Also, by moving so slowly in early elementary, less time is available in upper elementary and middle school for more challenging concepts. Plenty of kids have difficulties down the road due to these latter issues as well.

Anti array PP and I agree. You put it much better than I did

[Anonymous]

I honestly think number bonds are excessive too. Kids should be adding 8+7 as 8+2 (to get to ten) plus 7-2
Or maybe that’s what number bonds are?
Basically you add to get to 10 and then add the leftover

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

Agree do not do this. Not only will students need to understand these concepts to pass grade level test, understanding the multiple different ways not only helps solve problems different ways but allows kids to THINK about problems differently and ensures concrete understanding of math. These are critical when you get to upper level math.

Everybody thinks their kid is super quick and understands it all until presented with word problems, mixed fractions, and oh Alg II. Then, expensive tutors come out.

Everything has trade-offs. By spending so much time on multiple approaches and conceptual understanding of arithmetic, some kids don't get enough time on math facts and standard procedures. Also, by moving so slowly in early elementary, less time is available in upper elementary and middle school for more challenging concepts. Plenty of kids have difficulties down the road due to these latter issues as well.

I’m not convinced this is true given county and state MCAP scores. Further, there are plenty of kids each year who undertake compacted math, and a large number of kids are taking Alg1 by 8th. The courses don’t need to move quicker they need additional depth and review.

The issue is the lopsided nature of the K-8 math sequence. Yes, kids get to Algebra 1 by 8th now, but they get there by moving slowly through the easier material of early elementary and then having to rush to compact content later just as the material gets more conceptually difficult. It would be better to smooth this sequence out. If more content was covered in early elementary, there would be less need for compaction later and greater opportunity for additional depth and review in middle school which would help deepen algebraic understanding. In high school, weak algebraic understanding catches up with kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

I saw it with my child too. Arrays were just busy work and a nuisance. And who are the tests for?! The school admin. Any teacher knows if a kid knows their stuff. If they can solve a multiplication problem they don’t need to use arrays
I mean my kid did most of his work of course but it’s dumb and though I couldn’t openly agree with him, I do now.
Yes there are kids who need arrays and manipulatives and what not but i bet it’s not OP’s kid

Nope. As a teacher, I need to know my student's are learning what I am teaching them in class. If the curriculum includes arrays, that student needs to learn arrays. The tests are for teachers in order to drive instruction. Just because your kid can multiply tell me they are paying attention or learning during my lessons if they don't know how to do what is asked of them. Additionally, math instruction is much more concept based now. Students are learning WHY math works, not just mindlessly memorizing it. Sorry, if your kid doesn't turn in a quiz or test that shows they know the material given to them in class, they aren't passing my class.

When kids hit algebra they need to have facts memorized.

No one is disputing that. Kids need to have the facts memorized AND understand why those memorized facts make sense. Why does this seem to bother you so much?

It was a huge waste of time and made mine misreable and hating math. Once they started algebra they never used it. They need to teach caches and the basics. We had to do all that at home.

High school algebra teacher here. You’re wrong. Ever since they implemented a more conceptual understanding in the lower grades, students are coming to me with a much stronger foundation and depth of understanding than they ever were before. Just because you don’t get it, doesn’t mean it’s not working. You sound very stuck in your ways. You’re not in the classroom. You’re not teaching mathematics. You’re basing this off your child’s singular experience while the rest of us are looking at the big picture. It’s a shame that intellectual curiosity seems to be a rarity these days. Your attitude and temperament are alarmingly immature for a grown adult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

I saw it with my child too. Arrays were just busy work and a nuisance. And who are the tests for?! The school admin. Any teacher knows if a kid knows their stuff. If they can solve a multiplication problem they don’t need to use arrays
I mean my kid did most of his work of course but it’s dumb and though I couldn’t openly agree with him, I do now.
Yes there are kids who need arrays and manipulatives and what not but i bet it’s not OP’s kid

Nope. As a teacher, I need to know my student's are learning what I am teaching them in class. If the curriculum includes arrays, that student needs to learn arrays. The tests are for teachers in order to drive instruction. Just because your kid can multiply tell me they are paying attention or learning during my lessons if they don't know how to do what is asked of them. Additionally, math instruction is much more concept based now. Students are learning WHY math works, not just mindlessly memorizing it. Sorry, if your kid doesn't turn in a quiz or test that shows they know the material given to them in class, they aren't passing my class.

When kids hit algebra they need to have facts memorized.

No one is disputing that. Kids need to have the facts memorized AND understand why those memorized facts make sense. Why does this seem to bother you so much?

It was a huge waste of time and made mine misreable and hating math. Once they started algebra they never used it. They need to teach caches and the basics. We had to do all that at home.

High school algebra teacher here. You’re wrong. Ever since they implemented a more conceptual understanding in the lower grades, students are coming to me with a much stronger foundation and depth of understanding than they ever were before. Just because you don’t get it, doesn’t mean it’s not working. You sound very stuck in your ways. You’re not in the classroom. You’re not teaching mathematics. You’re basing this off your child’s singular experience while the rest of us are looking at the big picture. It’s a shame that intellectual curiosity seems to be a rarity these days. Your attitude and temperament are alarmingly immature for a grown adult.

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes math moved very slowly until about 4th grade and then it picked up pace.
Arrays are stupid and more confusing for smart kids than actual multiplication. Many problems emphasizing how multiplication is repeated addition are confusing too.
Just teach your kid multiplication the old way and don’t make them complete the nonsense in their workbooks if they already know what they are doing.
Move quickly to standard algorithm for all 4 math operations and to fractions, including operations with them, transforming irregular to regular and fractions to decimals and back. Learn place value and why in standard algorithm it is vital to put place values under each other.
Kids don’t get enough time to understand it in 4th grade, so give yours a head start

Do not listen to this advice. Students need to understand arrays in order to pass the tests. And guess what? We've evolved as humans! Some students learn better using arrays...some learn better using repeated addition...and yes, some learn better using good old fashioned multiplication. The point is, not everyone learns the same. Sorry you're stuck in a mentality where you think what you learned is better...great. But don't advise other people when you don't have a clue how it works.

I saw it with my child too. Arrays were just busy work and a nuisance. And who are the tests for?! The school admin. Any teacher knows if a kid knows their stuff. If they can solve a multiplication problem they don’t need to use arrays
I mean my kid did most of his work of course but it’s dumb and though I couldn’t openly agree with him, I do now.
Yes there are kids who need arrays and manipulatives and what not but i bet it’s not OP’s kid

Nope. As a teacher, I need to know my student's are learning what I am teaching them in class. If the curriculum includes arrays, that student needs to learn arrays. The tests are for teachers in order to drive instruction. Just because your kid can multiply tell me they are paying attention or learning during my lessons if they don't know how to do what is asked of them. Additionally, math instruction is much more concept based now. Students are learning WHY math works, not just mindlessly memorizing it. Sorry, if your kid doesn't turn in a quiz or test that shows they know the material given to them in class, they aren't passing my class.

When kids hit algebra they need to have facts memorized.

No one is disputing that. Kids need to have the facts memorized AND understand why those memorized facts make sense. Why does this seem to bother you so much?

It was a huge waste of time and made mine misreable and hating math. Once they started algebra they never used it. They need to teach caches and the basics. We had to do all that at home.

High school algebra teacher here. You’re wrong. Ever since they implemented a more conceptual understanding in the lower grades, students are coming to me with a much stronger foundation and depth of understanding than they ever were before. Just because you don’t get it, doesn’t mean it’s not working. You sound very stuck in your ways. You’re not in the classroom. You’re not teaching mathematics. You’re basing this off your child’s singular experience while the rest of us are looking at the big picture. It’s a shame that intellectual curiosity seems to be a rarity these days. Your attitude and temperament are alarmingly immature for a grown adult.

DP That doesn't necessarily jive with reports of kids struggling in high school math and the explosion of tutors. It's great that your experience has been positive. Other places though, teachers have lamented that kids can't factor polynomials because they are mentally calculating factors instead of knowing math facts from recall. Also, having time to develop deep algebraic understanding is key to Algebra 2 and above.

You note that you're a high school algebra teacher. Are you teaching Algebra 1 or 2? The slower pacing in early elementary is consistent with 9th grade Algebra 1 without the need to compact, so the current pacing could work for those kids. But for kids who take Algebra 1 by 8th grade, they have to compact content which is where the rush comes in. For kids taking middle school Algebra 1, the current K-8 pacing is not ideal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think number bonds are excessive too. Kids should be adding 8+7 as 8+2 (to get to ten) plus 7-2
Or maybe that’s what number bonds are?
Basically you add to get to 10 and then add the leftover

I HaTeD the number bonds. Visually, they don’t even make sense. They are truly a terrible way to teach math.

[Anonymous]

The real answer is "whenever you teach them" ha

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think number bonds are excessive too. Kids should be adding 8+7 as 8+2 (to get to ten) plus 7-2
Or maybe that’s what number bonds are?
Basically you add to get to 10 and then add the leftover

Or.... you just know by heart that 8+7= 15

I think a lot of this is what kind of learner you are and how you prefer to learn. Spatial, visual, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think number bonds are excessive too. Kids should be adding 8+7 as 8+2 (to get to ten) plus 7-2
Or maybe that’s what number bonds are?
Basically you add to get to 10 and then add the leftover

Or.... you just know by heart that 8+7= 15

I think a lot of this is what kind of learner you are and how you prefer to learn. Spatial, visual, etc.

"Kind of learner" a myth.

https://youtu.be/rhgwIhB58PA

Most people benefit from a mix of styles.