Non Observant and Passover

[Anonymous]

My husband grew up reform. His great great grandparents were observant and kept kosher (not just kosher for Passover) and so his great grandmother kept her home kosher so that her parents could eat in her home, but she didn’t keep kosher outside the home because it wasn’t important to her. His grandmother only kept kosher for Passover, and his mother did the same.

Husband always avoided foods that weren’t kosher for Passover during the holiday until his late 30s, but he didn’t do it for religious reasons. He attended Hebrew school and had a bar mitzvah, but he doesn’t like organized religion. He claimed he kept kosher for Passover and fasted for Yom Kippur as a way to challenge himself and see if he could follow the restrictions. As he approached 40, he just gave up on all of it. He happily attends family religious celebrations, but they’re only important to him because of the familial bonds. None of his siblings are particularly religious. This year everyone had spring break plans, so they’re not even having a Seder, much to MIL’s horror.

I’m Christian, but also not particularly religious, so our children have been raised celebrating Jewish and Christian holidays, but not attending church or synagogue. They’re teenagers and one is an atheist and the other is agnostic, but would embrace Judaism if she married someone Jewish because she finds Judaism more palatable than Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.

Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually avoid all bread for the week altho I don’t worry about corn etc. but I don’t have a seder unless we have a critical mass of family. Usually use the velveteen rabbi haggadah.

Why do you avoid bread? Is it a nod to a former religious practice or do you do it as distinct religious observance? Do you sell your chametz, clean your house, etc. , eat only for Passover foods?

No they said they just avoid bread. That is enough for them.

What?

Poster said they don't eat bread. Next poster says do you do these other things? The answer would be no. They avoid bread

There is a why question there- that I see, anyway.

They don't know why people avoid bread during Passover.?

But do nothing else. Seems like a straightforward academic question.

Many people do this or some variation. Very few people follow every rule. A relative recently explained to me that she will eat non official Passover foods but will not cook with them herself. I don't get it but it is her choices.

[Anonymous]

We do a seder but on a weekend night (so this year it's tonight). Most of the guests are Christian. We use a traditional but short Haggadah. Definitely don't observe any of the food rules other than for the seder itself. I recall observing the food rules as a young child even though my family was mixed religion, but abandoned it by college.

My mother used to do the seder but about 10 years ago I started hosting because my kids like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We do a seder but on a weekend night (so this year it's tonight). Most of the guests are Christian. We use a traditional but short Haggadah. Definitely don't observe any of the food rules other than for the seder itself. I recall observing the food rules as a young child even though my family was mixed religion, but abandoned it by college.

My mother used to do the seder but about 10 years ago I started hosting because my kids like it.

Our seder is tomorrow!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.

Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.

Really, because I had a large family in New York, my grandmother came here with siblings, no parents, all separately. Where they lived, walk up tenements, it was everyone. Hundreds off people. I'm not sure what your point is, somehow you are trying to make a point, but I lived it, in Ny, at three different communities, all large communities. They were hardly exceptions- kosher all the way, kosher butchers, tichels,,wigs, black coats, yiddish speaking only. I only spoke Yiddish until age 6.

My parents are the ones who stopped the wigs, and everything kosher, only some things, and my mother wore sleeveless dresses in the summer. I remember it being a big deal causing upheaval back in Ny. By the time it was 1967, they started eating in restaurants, but kosher at home. TV, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.

Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.

Really, because I had a large family in New York, my grandmother came here with siblings, no parents, all separately. Where they lived, walk up tenements, it was everyone. Hundreds off people. I'm not sure what your point is, somehow you are trying to make a point, but I lived it, in Ny, at three different communities, all large communities. They were hardly exceptions- kosher all the way, kosher butchers, tichels,,wigs, black coats, yiddish speaking only. I only spoke Yiddish until age 6.

My parents are the ones who stopped the wigs, and everything kosher, only some things, and my mother wore sleeveless dresses in the summer. I remember it being a big deal causing upheaval back in Ny. By the time it was 1967, they started eating in restaurants, but kosher at home. TV, etc.

I'll give you this which may assauge your perception. My parents, their siblings, and their friends were all highly conflicted during their tenure as young adults and parents to the next generation. They were all educated, and living among the secular in their professions, and not in NY or wherever they came from. Leaving things like being kosher, dressing, walking to shul or driving, keeping the Sabbath so stringently was no longer making sense, but they had to find new ways to justify old ways, or combine old with new, or redesign it altogether. Then, a new group of orthodox folks moved into the area here in Md, from NY, younger, and younger, in the 1970s,and they recreated new orthodox communities near the ones the original group had settled in. They were full practicing orthodox, wigs, kosher, shomer shabbos, kids going to yeshivas (here and in Baltimore, NY) and it threw a wrench in to these 40 something year olds who were just starting to sow their oats in society and just starting to feel ok with it. This made them self conscious. So there was some boomeranging back and forth for a while.

So it was MY generation that was a little famished with it all. We ended up doing our own thing for the most part. Some actually went all orthodox, most started out conservative, but moved toward reform, and many just live as secular Jews today. Most kids are intermarried, and do an interesting nod to culture, whatever they see as appropriate.

But- we all say Kaddish for our parents, regardless, who are mostly passed now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.

Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.

Really, because I had a large family in New York, my grandmother came here with siblings, no parents, all separately. Where they lived, walk up tenements, it was everyone. Hundreds off people. I'm not sure what your point is, somehow you are trying to make a point, but I lived it, in Ny, at three different communities, all large communities. They were hardly exceptions- kosher all the way, kosher butchers, tichels,,wigs, black coats, yiddish speaking only. I only spoke Yiddish until age 6.

My parents are the ones who stopped the wigs, and everything kosher, only some things, and my mother wore sleeveless dresses in the summer. I remember it being a big deal causing upheaval back in Ny. By the time it was 1967, they started eating in restaurants, but kosher at home. TV, etc.

Your memories are your memories. But historians, and even Chabad disagree with you: https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/840202/jewish/The-Rebbe-on-the-Jewish-Womans-Hair-Covering.htm. Tenements does not mean ultra-Orthodox. The Bundists spoke Yiddish. Kosher all the way is nowhere near the crazy kashrut standards of today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.

Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.

Really, because I had a large family in New York, my grandmother came here with siblings, no parents, all separately. Where they lived, walk up tenements, it was everyone. Hundreds off people. I'm not sure what your point is, somehow you are trying to make a point, but I lived it, in Ny, at three different communities, all large communities. They were hardly exceptions- kosher all the way, kosher butchers, tichels,,wigs, black coats, yiddish speaking only. I only spoke Yiddish until age 6.

My parents are the ones who stopped the wigs, and everything kosher, only some things, and my mother wore sleeveless dresses in the summer. I remember it being a big deal causing upheaval back in Ny. By the time it was 1967, they started eating in restaurants, but kosher at home. TV, etc.

Your memories are your memories. But historians, and even Chabad disagree with you: https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/840202/jewish/The-Rebbe-on-the-Jewish-Womans-Hair-Covering.htm. Tenements does not mean ultra-Orthodox. The Bundists spoke Yiddish. Kosher all the way is nowhere near the crazy kashrut standards of today.

Chabad doesn't get to decide anything about my life. I was there, that's literally how it was. Period. I didn't dream it, and never did I equate tenements with orthodox Judaism, it was a description of their homes, and you failed to grasp that. Irish. Italian, Polish all lived in tenements.


Secondly, there are many orthodox and ultra orthodox sects and practice was dependent upon where people came from. A little Wikipedia blurb isn't going to cut it here, and certainly not with my experience, which, btw, has much more bearing than your perception of any part of this time.
You need to research history a little more closely and talk to more people. You might be generationally challenged, which is how we got to this point in history right now, politically. Lots of stuff forgotten.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.

Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.

Really, because I had a large family in New York, my grandmother came here with siblings, no parents, all separately. Where they lived, walk up tenements, it was everyone. Hundreds off people. I'm not sure what your point is, somehow you are trying to make a point, but I lived it, in Ny, at three different communities, all large communities. They were hardly exceptions- kosher all the way, kosher butchers, tichels,,wigs, black coats, yiddish speaking only. I only spoke Yiddish until age 6.

My parents are the ones who stopped the wigs, and everything kosher, only some things, and my mother wore sleeveless dresses in the summer. I remember it being a big deal causing upheaval back in Ny. By the time it was 1967, they started eating in restaurants, but kosher at home. TV, etc.

Your memories are your memories. But historians, and even Chabad disagree with you: https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/840202/jewish/The-Rebbe-on-the-Jewish-Womans-Hair-Covering.htm. Tenements does not mean ultra-Orthodox. The Bundists spoke Yiddish. Kosher all the way is nowhere near the crazy kashrut standards of today.

This article from this source is entirely filled with false and inaccurate info. Wonder why? Good grief, this isn't hard to research. You can even find images on line from the 20s and 30s. It isn't hard.

[Anonymous]

I'm a conservative Jew who is starting to question,as I try to answer my kids questions. I'm not kosher during the year but we don't mix milk and meat. On Passover I do have a separate set of dishes and scrub the fridge.

BUT... Modern technology means my plates are getting clean and there's no chametz residue on them. Heinz finally makes Passover ketchup, but is it really any different than the Simply Heinz that I buy anyway, other than the price? It seems irresponsible to buy $7 ketchup replace what's already in my fridge. Now that I eat kitniyot, what's the difference between the 79 cent can and the $3 can. It feels cult-ish and elitist.

So I'm trying to find my middle ground, after growing up in the house where everything had to be labeled KFP. I want to do enough that my kids fully understand the tradition, but not so much that it's a burden on me, or on them to continue one day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone here who is non observant Jewish just not follow the holiday ? When did you decide not to?

I never have. It wasn’t much of a decision since I never considered doing it. Honestly it just looks like a lot of work and not nearly as much fun as a basket of candy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.

My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.

I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.

Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.

Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.

Wig wearing wasn't really common then: https://forward.com/life/203981/the-complete-history-of-the-sheitel/.

There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.

Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.

Really, because I had a large family in New York, my grandmother came here with siblings, no parents, all separately. Where they lived, walk up tenements, it was everyone. Hundreds off people. I'm not sure what your point is, somehow you are trying to make a point, but I lived it, in Ny, at three different communities, all large communities. They were hardly exceptions- kosher all the way, kosher butchers, tichels,,wigs, black coats, yiddish speaking only. I only spoke Yiddish until age 6.

My parents are the ones who stopped the wigs, and everything kosher, only some things, and my mother wore sleeveless dresses in the summer. I remember it being a big deal causing upheaval back in Ny. By the time it was 1967, they started eating in restaurants, but kosher at home. TV, etc.

Your memories are your memories. But historians, and even Chabad disagree with you: https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/840202/jewish/The-Rebbe-on-the-Jewish-Womans-Hair-Covering.htm. Tenements does not mean ultra-Orthodox. The Bundists spoke Yiddish. Kosher all the way is nowhere near the crazy kashrut standards of today.

Chabad doesn't get to decide anything about my life. I was there, that's literally how it was. Period. I didn't dream it, and never did I equate tenements with orthodox Judaism, it was a description of their homes, and you failed to grasp that. Irish. Italian, Polish all lived in tenements.


Secondly, there are many orthodox and ultra orthodox sects and practice was dependent upon where people came from. A little Wikipedia blurb isn't going to cut it here, and certainly not with my experience, which, btw, has much more bearing than your perception of any part of this time.
You need to research history a little more closely and talk to more people. You might be generationally challenged, which is how we got to this point in history right now, politically. Lots of stuff forgotten.

Well, there’s a lot of academic research in this area, actually. Doesn’t seem to be your strength. I don’t crave your good opinion, and you don’t have or heed mean. Cranky boomers gonna boomer.