Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.
My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.
I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.
Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.
Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.
There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.
Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.
Really, because I had a large family in New York, my grandmother came here with siblings, no parents, all separately. Where they lived, walk up tenements, it was everyone. Hundreds off people. I'm not sure what your point is, somehow you are trying to make a point, but I lived it, in Ny, at three different communities, all large communities. They were hardly exceptions- kosher all the way, kosher butchers, tichels,,wigs, black coats, yiddish speaking only. I only spoke Yiddish until age 6.
My parents are the ones who stopped the wigs, and everything kosher, only some things, and my mother wore sleeveless dresses in the summer. I remember it being a big deal causing upheaval back in Ny. By the time it was 1967, they started eating in restaurants, but kosher at home. TV, etc.
Chabad doesn't get to decide anything about my life. I was there, that's literally how it was. Period. I didn't dream it, and never did I equate tenements with orthodox Judaism, it was a description of their homes, and you failed to grasp that. Irish. Italian, Polish all lived in tenements.
Secondly, there are many orthodox and ultra orthodox sects and practice was dependent upon where people came from. A little Wikipedia blurb isn't going to cut it here, and certainly not with my experience, which, btw, has much more bearing than your perception of any part of this time.
You need to research history a little more closely and talk to more people. You might be generationally challenged, which is how we got to this point in history right now, politically. Lots of stuff forgotten.
Well, there’s a lot of academic research in this area, actually. Doesn’t seem to be your strength. I don’t crave your good opinion, and you don’t have or heed mean. Cranky boomers gonna boomer.
Very funny that you think I'm cranky as you keep playing the same tune over and over and you are still dead wrong. Can anyone imagine that this is how someone spends their time- arguing over who might have worn a wig in the 1920s? Then- you just want to get into a name calling escapade with ageist tones. You are not engaging in anything, rational- you just want to troll. How dumb.
As for the research part, I am an academic professor, so your comment is pretty comical. Research is what I do, sorry, bud- but again, I am actually the primary source one would go to for research. Look up what a primary source is. None of your contributions are academic, regardless.
You have some ridiculous axe to grind, and frankly, no one, including me, cares.
Anonymous wrote:It’s time to normalize your great-grandparents Judaism. Ultra-Orthodox/Chabad didn’t exist in the US until the 1950s. Even haredi communities in Europe - most women didn’t cover cover their hair. The faces/bodies/voices of girls and women weren’t fetishized so they couldn’t be seen or heard. Jewish education was mixed. No one had two dishwashers or two sinks or two ovens. Absolutely no one had a “Pesach kitchen.” Many families didn’t have separate milk and meat plates/dishes - they just kashered in between. Hechsher wars didn’t exist. No one cut their broccoli in microscopic pieces to check for bugs. Men worked real jobs. Secular studies were not incompatible with religious studies. Hyper-fixation on female “purity” was not a thing. The Post-Shoah rejection of modernism meets Israeli rabbinate hyper control meets Ashkenormativity of yeshiva life meets culty Chabad culture has contorted Jewish practice beyond recognizable boundaries. It’s Christian fundamentalist-esque.
My grandparents had and did all that, and well before the 50s, from the turn of the century until their death. My parents started to but began sliding down the ladder until they were conservadox. By the time they were elderly, they were on the reform level. I have trouble accepting really any practice since I've been an adult, but appreciate the historical ethnic culture. I will say I harbor what I think is some religious trauma from a lot of it. I did only secular things with my own kids- just wouldn't go there.
I agree with your comparison to fundamentalism now. I feel like there's orthodox practice and everyone else, regardless of what they call themselves- conservative, reform, reconstructionist, whatever. Additionally, it seems that way politically, too. The more observant, the more right wing.But the political aspect wasn't there in the 50s or 70s, or even 90s.
Did you know them? It’s unlikely that they did. For example, they may have worn hats, but I suspect that there wasn’t such militance about hair was showing. Also from historical evidence, we know that the faces of women and girls were not blurred out they way they are frequently today. It would have been unusual for Jews to have the funds for separate ovens in that era. The existence of haredi communities in the US didn’t happen really until after WWII. My great grandmother was the daughter of a rabbi - they didn’t even have separate plates.
Yes, I did know them very well, as I knew their siblings and cousins, hereand in Israel. . I am in my 60s, not my 40s. There were no blurred faces as there wasn't the technology (!), and there might have been nuances that have ramped up, but there was a karp in that tenement tub, full wigs, modest clothing ( but women didn't wear pants then anyway) , and they kashered their kitchen for Pesach . The plates were separate or kashered as needed as they were quite poor. My parents did all this, but slowly gave it up, little by little, as did many children of this group of immigrants, but remained observant by their own standards. Orthodox Judaism split in different ways in the 1960s in my area, where people basically started making choices of how to practice, live in the secular business and educated world, but retain the Jewishness. My generation split that even more, and my kid's generation has either given it all up OR headed back into the practice you are talking about-full super orthodoxy, and this time with IG accounts reviving all those things and celebrating it in the way of other online presence (such as #tradwife # mormonlife #cottagecore , etc.) Take a look.
There were wigs! Plenty of ugly ones. I was there, my friend. Very ugly wigs that were basically brown helmets. But mostly cloth tichels for the daytime. Absolutely covered their hair. This just wasn't in your family, I guess.
Wasn’t most families. Sounds like yours was an exception.
Really, because I had a large family in New York, my grandmother came here with siblings, no parents, all separately. Where they lived, walk up tenements, it was everyone. Hundreds off people. I'm not sure what your point is, somehow you are trying to make a point, but I lived it, in Ny, at three different communities, all large communities. They were hardly exceptions- kosher all the way, kosher butchers, tichels,,wigs, black coats, yiddish speaking only. I only spoke Yiddish until age 6.
My parents are the ones who stopped the wigs, and everything kosher, only some things, and my mother wore sleeveless dresses in the summer. I remember it being a big deal causing upheaval back in Ny. By the time it was 1967, they started eating in restaurants, but kosher at home. TV, etc.
Chabad doesn't get to decide anything about my life. I was there, that's literally how it was. Period. I didn't dream it, and never did I equate tenements with orthodox Judaism, it was a description of their homes, and you failed to grasp that. Irish. Italian, Polish all lived in tenements.
Secondly, there are many orthodox and ultra orthodox sects and practice was dependent upon where people came from. A little Wikipedia blurb isn't going to cut it here, and certainly not with my experience, which, btw, has much more bearing than your perception of any part of this time.
You need to research history a little more closely and talk to more people. You might be generationally challenged, which is how we got to this point in history right now, politically. Lots of stuff forgotten.
Well, there’s a lot of academic research in this area, actually. Doesn’t seem to be your strength. I don’t crave your good opinion, and you don’t have or heed mean. Cranky boomers gonna boomer.
Very funny that you think I'm cranky as you keep playing the same tune over and over and you are still dead wrong. Can anyone imagine that this is how someone spends their time- arguing over who might have worn a wig in the 1920s? Then- you just want to get into a name calling escapade with ageist tones. You are not engaging in anything, rational- you just want to troll. How dumb.
As for the research part, I am an academic professor, so your comment is pretty comical. Research is what I do, sorry, bud- but again, I am actually the primary source one would go to for research. Look up what a primary source is. None of your contributions are academic, regardless.
You have some ridiculous axe to grind, and frankly, no one, including me, cares.
I like the emergence of different types of readings, and the general practice of gathering. There's a lot of ways to make it relevance without traditional liturgy.
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